DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[Konsolkongen]

Holy crap this remote is awesome! I wasn't aware that you could just hold up another remote and program each button separately

[Daytime Dreamer]

I dont think it has one Fudoh (not home right now). I choose this specific plasma after a lot of research cause it has around 15ms input lag in game mode. My previous LCD was a LG 46LF66 which had lots of input lag.

[SGGG2]

I am guessing there are other problems with 240p as a trade off for the slightly sharper picture though?

Slight difference?! lol

I do wonder if it's as sharp in motion...

[Konsolkongen]

I dont think it has one Fudoh (not home right now). I choose this specific plasma after a lot of research cause it has around 15ms input lag in game mode. My previous LCD was a LG 46LF66 which had lots of input lag.

Panasonic S20?

[fagin]

I am guessing there are other problems with 240p as a trade off for the slightly sharper picture though?

Slight difference?! lol

I do wonder if it's as sharp in motion...

You lose pixel definition with movement, but it ends up no worse than the FW that recognises 240p correctly. In fact it looks better as you have hardly any halos.

However.... my previous screen shots of the earlier FW are with gamemode OFF, so you have increased lag. Gamemode ON reduces lag but the image looks like an interlaced image would on a CRT.

The earlier FW is not really a "better" 240p solution, especially when you slip a SLG in there as well.

[trunk]

As for the snow problem(HDCP) Konsolkongen had I could not reproduce it. I switched freely between ps3, x360, and xrgb-3, auto or manual and it found the PS3 every time.

Yes but you have to turn off the other sources before this happens. When all is powered on I can switch freely between them too

If you are interested I can try filming it, but I only have the camera in my phone.

I did not phrase the above right Leaving the ps3 on, I would turn on and off the x360 and the xrgb randomly and I never had a problem(had to pick the xrgb in manual select because it was lower on priority list)

I have experienced the snow effect but it usually finds the input almost right away, usually what I get is the typical green screen flicker for hdcp handshaking.

When HDCP is enabled in the signal it is not possible to re-route the audio to the optical output. On the 360 this is not a problem as HDCP is not enabled, on the PS3 it's enabled all the time, so you won't get any sound unless you use the optical in from the PS3.

I've had a faulty Edge that did the audio stuttering thing (as in randomly stuttering, not just cutting out when silent), normally the optical audio in/out from the Edge is absolutely fine, I'd get it serviced if its still in warranty.

Like Fudoh I was able to get sound from the PS3(hmdi->edge->optical) regardless of HDCP but I did get the random stutter just like with the x360. I need to check the optical inputs on the edge again, and I need to look into the whole warranty thing.

[Daytime Dreamer]

I dont think it has one Fudoh (not home right now). I choose this specific plasma after a lot of research cause it has around 15ms input lag in game mode. My previous LCD was a LG 46LF66 which had lots of input lag.

Panasonic S20?

Yup, a Panny S20 (46S20E to be exact)

[Konsolkongen]

Kewl I bought the 42S20E on Fudoh's recommendation and I'm very happy with it. Unfortunately it doesn't have a VGA input.

[Konsolkongen]

Can I keep it at auto since it says RGB anyway? Otherwise I can just lower the brightness on the EDGE.

you should set your display's brightness to a level so that the picture looks good WITHOUT adding (or decreasing) brightness on the Edge. You can do this by using the Edge's pattern.

I was trying this last night but I'm not sure I know what to do with it. I have only ever adjusted a TV using the THX optimizer on some of my DVD's.

I used the all black test screen to lower the brightness until the black got as black as possible (Brightness -5), then I used the white test screen and raised the contrast until the white was as white as possible (contrast 37). Is that the correct way?

I then found some of my games too dark. I'm playing Singularity atm and it has a brightness adjustment screen. It consists of 3 images, one that should be invisible, one barely visible and the last clearly visible. No matter what I moved the brightness slider in the game to I could only see the one that should be clearly visible. Adjusting brightness and contrast on my TV did not help. If I upped the brightness on the EDGE with +6 I could see the barely visible one just fine.
So is the games brightness adjust to blame here or do I have to adjust both the EDGE and TV for the correct picture?

Sorry if this is a stupid question

[Fudoh]

The Edge usually handles the conversion from limited (16-235) to full video range (0-255) just fine.

I don't exactly remember the patterns saved on the Edge. There should be a Pludge pattern for setting brightness. A dark screen with a bunch of black bars somewhere. There's one bar (on the left) which is BTB (blacker than black) and two that are slightly brighter than black. You set brightness correctly by pulling it up and then lowering it until the background doesn't get darker anymore. If you use a 100% black pattern you might miss the point and go too low. The two brighter bars must be visible. The patterns on the Edge are NOT affected by the Edge's brightness control, so they're always 100% correct and can be used to set the TV properly.

Contrast is set with a white pattern, but that's a matter of taste, since Plasma and LCD displays don't bloom anymore. On CRTs you know that you've set the contrast too high when the higher white levels go missing and are all seen as pure white.

The THX optimizer on DVDs isn't good since you don't know how the DVD player converts the YV422 to the TV.

You're playing Singularity on the 360 or PS3 ? If 360, have you set the output to RGB and increased the RGB range to full ?

[Konsolkongen]

You're playing Singularity on the 360 or PS3 ? If 360, have you set the output to RGB and increased the RGB range to full ?

PS3 but good point. I have to check if the 360 is set to full range

Thanks for your input I'll wait until tonight, and try it then when the light is better.

[Fudoh]

PS3 but good point

PS3 is even messier when it comes to proper output. Especially since on the PS3 game and movie output are completely different and set in different places. And on top of it, BDs and DVDs are output differently than movie clips on the cross media bar.

[BuckoA51]

Remember that the picture controls on the Edge are independent/different for each input, meaning you can calibrate your TV to the Edge and then calibrate the individual inputs perhaps using something like the THX disc or Digital Video Essentials, or even the 240p test suite.

[Fudoh]

that's right, but on a perfectly calibrated TV and proper sources no further adjusting should be neccessary. Most people only compensate for improperly set TVs. This excludes the XRGB of course, since the color handling is completely off here.

[Konsolkongen]

PS3 but good point

PS3 is even messier when it comes to proper output. Especially since on the PS3 game and movie output are completely different and set in different places. And on top of it, BDs and DVDs are output differently than movie clips on the cross media bar.

So adjust the TV according to the test patterns and then boost the EDGE brightness on the PS3 input? I thought the PS3 had a much better output than the 360 :/

[fagin]

Fudoh,
Would you mind doing a calibration guide for the DVDO using the test patterns?

I have never really bothered with calibration stuff before and with the facilities available in the DVDO it might be a perfect place to start learning.

[BuckoA51]

that's right, but on a perfectly calibrated TV and proper sources no further adjusting should be neccessary

I eagerly await these proper sources Certainly it's not the PS3 and 360 anyway.. Though they only need a couple notches brightness/contrast to get them right.

[Fudoh]

So adjust the TV according to the test patterns and then boost the EDGE brightness on the PS3 input? I thought the PS3 had a much better output than the 360 :/

no, because if set right, there's no need for additional adjusting. If you have to boost the brightness on the PS3 there's very likely something wrong with the chain at some point. And no, the PS3 is a mess in this regard...

Would you mind doing a calibration guide for the DVDO using the test patterns?

there are so many guides online which are very easily transferable to the Edge's patterns. E.g. this one at Spears & Munsil: http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles ... ntrol.html

Just note that the previews are taken from limited range video while your PC displays the website in full range. This means the background on all pictures actually displays "dark grey" while they are supposed to be black on your LCD or Plasma TV.

Though they only need a couple notches brightness/contrast to get them right.

On these two we've got a different problem: the developers don't stick to standards. Some preview their own games on limited range video displays while the graphics are designed at full range displays, so some games are designed with a limited range in mind, while others are designed for a full range. And even worse: I bet there are hundreds of titles which are designed in RGB, displayed in YPbPr and meant to be "right" this way.

[Konsolkongen]

So adjust the TV according to the test patterns and then boost the EDGE brightness on the PS3 input? I thought the PS3 had a much better output than the 360 :/

no, because if set right, there's no need for additional adjusting. If you have to boost the brightness on the PS3 there's very likely something wrong with the chain at some point. And no, the PS3 is a mess in this regard...

Alright if I still can't see the barely visible one the game must be to blame then. Thanks

[BuckoA51]

no, because if set right, there's no need for additional adjusting.

That's certainly not what my calibration disc is telling me! Guess we will just have to agree my equipment is not perfect

[Fudoh]

That's certainly not what my calibration disc is telling me!

it's 100% spot on, both with my DVD player (Video Essentials and Avia) and my BD player (Video Essentials BD), but it's not a problem on the other hand either if it isn't.

It's just a problem when you use brightness and contrast to cover a (wrong) dynamic range compression or expansion (e.g. you output RGB at video levels from the Edge, but the TV expects RGB at computer levels and you adjust the TV's brightness to compensate the black level.)

[BuckoA51]

Yeah I'm not talking huge adjustments, probably just plus or minus 1 or 2 here and there just to get the 10% above black strip to show. I have both the PS3 and 360 set to RGB expanded.

[fagin]

Quick question:

I have just bought a AVerTV CaptureHD card and I am mightly impressed with this capturing solution alongside the EDGE.

Now with or without the AVerTV routed through to my Dell 1080p display, I have noticed that the XRGB-2+'s image is better using the DVDO EDGE to scale to my screens native 1080p resolution, then it is feeding my screen a 480p image. Is this because the EDGE scaler does a better job than at scaling than my internal scaler on my Dell screen? I assume that theory is correct? Also using the EDGE to scale, does this increase lag over transcoding (i.e. 480p A to 480p D)?

[Fudoh]

Is this because the EDGE scaler does a better job than at scaling than my internal scaler on my Dell screen?

yes.

Also using the EDGE to scale, does this increase lag over transcoding (i.e. 480p A to 480p D)?

no, doesn't make a difference. And you can always check the current delay in the audio delay menu. Just move the slider to the absolute minimum and it will show the current processing delay.

[Konsolkongen]

I've been experiencing colorbleed from the XRGB's and since 240p test suite is not out for the Saturn I drawed this up in Dezaemon 2:



The green color is fine but the blue and red looks washed out in places. It actually depends on where I put it on the screen as well.

Is this a cable issue? Remember that I only have the shitty one I soldered together using various bad quality phono cables and an old VGA to BNC lead where I cut off the BNC leads. Or is this just one of the EDGE's "features"?

[fagin]

I get something similar on the test suite for the DC. The words RED and BLUE on the black background are not as sharp as GREEN. This is helped by turning CUE correction off, but far from perfect.

[Konsolkongen]

Alright, must be an Edge thing then

[Fudoh]

But it shouldn't happen.

The effect is caused by color upsampling, which is interesting, because it's not needed for a RGBHV input. If your source was a YUV 4:2:2 source you would see this. The luminance channel is full res, while the color channels are half res. Is your XRGB still shown as a YCbCr source ?

When you connect a RGB source, the green channel comes in on the luminance port, while blue and red get connected to the color channels (that's why green is full res, while red and blue are half res).

That's something I would write to the support email at Simplay Labs, especially since it's not really videogame related, but probably a bug in the RGBHV handling in general.

[Konsolkongen]

Yes it's still handled as YCbCr. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on this stuff should write them, or do you think I can just briefly explain and link to this topic?

[Fudoh]

Let's post this in the AVS Edge thread first.

Is the pattern you created a 1 pixel pattern (1 pixel colums in color, 1 in black and so on...) ?

I assume Saturn -> Gefen -> Edge with the Gefen set the 720x480p output looks fine ??