ST: Battle Garegga (20.7.14 - edits, record replays list)

[BulletMagnet]

Okay, so I guess that bombing bullets doesn't increase rank...what about running into them while invincible?

Oh, off to the side (not related to rank) but one or two things you might want to add to other sections of the guide, Icarus...I (finally) beat the Saturn version of BG on "Training" mode again (hadn't been able to pull it off in months...), and found, to my pleasant surprise, that this was enough to unlock the "wait control" option, as well as the superplays: apparently you don't have to 1CC the thing on defaults to do it. Also, IIRC the wait control option was a bit misleading: I think that by default it's set to "off" (which made me think that the slowdown was thus "on" but it turned out to be the opposite: you have to turn wait control "on" to enable the slowdown.

Figured I'd mention those in case you want to add in anything in the ST about the Saturn version's unlockables and whatnot.

[Icarus]

1) I already knew you had to ALL the game to unlock the Wait Control and the superplays. However I don't play on anything other than default (and if I want the extra challenge, Harder/Extended Mode) so I wasn't aware that ALLing on the lowest gets you the gear easy. Thanks. ^_-

2) I also knew that Wait Control was set to OFF default, as the game doesn't slow down in key areas like it does on the PCB which I've had twice so far (Mad Ball Mk1 and Mk2 bulletspam patterns, second half of stage6, first half of stage7, during Black Heart Mk2 and Glow Squid's more vicious patterns etc). I'll update with the Unlockables info to the Basic Info section once I get round to it. ^_-

Wait Control is surprisingly accurate, however. It matches the PCB almost perfectly with the slowdown amount and usual areas. It's worth having on once you get it if you need the extra help (add it to the debris and you've got easy passage through the tougher patterns ^_-).

NOW PUT THE DIFFICULTY BACK TO DEFAULT! ^_-

[Twiddle]

Okay, so I guess that bombing bullets doesn't increase rank...what about running into them while invincible?

Same thing. Does nothing.

I don't know why Wait Control is OFF by default in the Saturn rev when it would make it closer to the arcade version. On SNS1 and 2, wait control is on by default.

[Icarus]

I don't know why Wait Control is OFF by default in the Saturn rev when it would make it closer to the arcade version. On SNS1 and 2, wait control is on by default.

Dunno, it makes it a tad harder without the slowdown, but the game plays a lot smoother as a result. Perhaps that was the intention...?

[BulletMagnet]

1) I already knew you had to ALL the game to unlock the Wait Control and the superplays.

Is that confirmed, or can you credit-feed and unlock them too? Not like it's much concern of mine since I did it already, but for completeness in the ST you might want to check into it.

I also knew that Wait Control was set to OFF default...

Yeah, the only reason I mentioned it was because of how weirdly it was worded...in most cases when "wait control" is "on," then the slowdown is eliminated, but in this case it actually enables it. This is the only game where I've seen the term "reversed" like that...

NOW PUT THE DIFFICULTY BACK TO DEFAULT! ^_-

Heh, if you remember my "cry for help" (as Rando called it) back on the Garegga HS thread several months back, some time before that I'd managed to beat the game on every difficulty setting under "Arcade"...then, for whatever reason, for months I wasn't even able to clear "Practice." Finally, after several tries, I've at least managed to get THIS far again...but yeah, I'll turn the difficulty back up now that I've at least (hopefully) got my bearings back.

Same thing. Does nothing.

Okay, thanks. Wonder how the original "hacker" came to that conclusion though...

Icarus, I'm hoping to have the first draft of "Rank for Dummies" finished sometime tomorrow: PM me the email address you'd like me to send it to you via, for proofreading and whatnot.

[Twiddle]

Okay, thanks. Wonder how the original "hacker" came to that conclusion though...

Well, if you have the location of the exact rank value handy and you're constantly looking at it in MAME as things happen...

[BulletMagnet]

Well yeah, that's supposedly what the guy who made the "hacker's guide" had, and somehow he thought that running into bullets while invincible increased rank...ah well, doesn't matter now anyways, heh heh.

[Icarus]

Is that confirmed, or can you credit-feed and unlock them too? Not like it's much concern of mine since I did it already, but for completeness in the ST you might want to check into it.

I think you can feed and still get the superplays, but the Wait Control option seems to be a 1-credit thing.

I'm intreged now, I might try it, if Ibara and various anime didn't get in the way first. ^_-

Yeah, the only reason I mentioned it was because of how weirdly it was worded...in most cases when "wait control" is "on," then the slowdown is eliminated, but in this case it actually enables it. This is the only game where I've seen the term "reversed" like that...

Raizing probably wanted the 'perfect' port free of all PCB limitations, and thus endeavored to remove slowdown by default. For those capable of clearing the game, having the option to put it back in would be quite nice, especially if you are used to the slowdown being present.

Icarus, I'm hoping to have the first draft of "Rank for Dummies" finished sometime tomorrow: PM me the email address you'd like me to send it to you via, for proofreading and whatnot.

Just send me a forum PM with the draft and I'll proofread it. No hurry though BM, just take your time. Much appreciated. ^_-

[BulletMagnet]

For those capable of clearing the game, having the option to put it back in would be quite nice, especially if you are used to the slowdown being present.

I still say that if you're able to clear the game without it, you don't need it. And that the wording's weird, heh heh.

Just send me a forum PM with the draft and I'll proofread it. No hurry though BM, just take your time. Much appreciated. ^_-

I don't know if it'll fit in a PM, it's pretty long...I'll try though, I suppose. There are also 2 (small) image files I put into it, those I'll probably have to email...or, then again, I could link 'em to you via photobucket.

One last thing, do you want me to send the draft to anyone else for fact-checking or whatnot?

[Icarus]

I don't mind multipart PMs, its a pretty important addition to the guide.

If Rando or Twiddle are interested then go ahead.
Of course, ask them first. ^_-

Looking forward to seeing what you got. ^_-

I'll use the final draft to replace the Rank Basics section, and throw all the numerical data from AWJ, Twiddle and the machine translated site in the Hackers Guide section for anyone really interested in the numbers.

[Twiddle]

Yeah, you can go send a PM.

[BulletMagnet]

Okay, once it's finished I'll send it your ways.

I'll use the final draft to replace the Rank Basics section, and throw all the numerical data from AWJ, Twiddle and the machine translated site in the Hackers Guide section for anyone really interested in the numbers.

Actually, I worked in the numerical stuff too, not sure if that's what you were planning...

[Icarus]

Yup, that's what I was planning. ^_-

All the raw, unprocessed, untouched data from AWJ and Twiddle will go into the Hackers Guide, while your stuff goes in the main section. Keeping them both seperate means that people who only want to know how rank works for playing can get them easily, and people who are interested in diving in the deep-end can go to the appropriate section for a programmer's view of the system.

[Twiddle]

Don't forget to replace the values in my rank-loss-per-death chart with the more accurate numbers from Garegga Laboratory.

[BulletMagnet]

All the raw, unprocessed, untouched data from AWJ and Twiddle will go into the Hackers Guide, while your stuff goes in the main section.

Actually, I already added the "raw" numerical data into the "for Dummies" thing, though I did simplify things just a little bit (mainly by removing the "hex" numbers, as I have no idea how they work, and hope I'm not alone on that). Anyways, if you want to split the rank stuff up into 2 posts that's your decision, I just sort of tossed everything into one place, do with it as you please.

In any event, the first draft is now more or less complete: however, I originally put it together as a Word document, and have not added in any BB Code or anything like that, which would make it tough to read as a bunch of PMs (not to mention that it's pretty big...in terms of file size, it's almost as big as the glossary is, though not as "dense"). Emailing it would at least give you a chance to look at it, and if you want it in a different "format" I could do that after getting your feedback: PM me the email you'd like me to use (don't worry, I won't abuse/sell/spam it , unless you can think of another way for me to get the file to you.

[Icarus]

Just read through the first draft, very very good stuff. I noticed you used more useful numbers than hex, which is good, as I'm still going to put in the Hackers Guide, but using just the hex data for programmer-literate people. ^_-

(The Hacker's Guide is also going to contain information on modding MAME, taken from fl0w, Twiddle and AWJ's posts regarding their mods, for those who wish to see for themselves.)

Not bad, a lot better and easier to understand than my original draft. Just one thing:

Is it a good idea to let people know that there is 60 frames per second (or thereabouts) and to multiply most of the numbers given for per-frame and one-time increases by 60 to get a better idea of how much it affects the rank counter per second? Or would that be needlessly complicating things? ^_-

[BulletMagnet]

I noticed you used more useful numbers than hex, which is good, as I'm still going to put in the Hackers Guide, but using just the hex data for programmer-literate people. ^_- (The Hacker's Guide is also going to contain information on modding MAME, taken from fl0w, Twiddle and AWJ's posts regarding their mods, for those who wish to see for themselves.)

Okay, that sounds cool, if you need any info from what I sent you just rearrange what you feel needs rearranging.

Is it a good idea to let people know that there is 60 frames per second (or thereabouts) and to multiply most of the numbers given for per-frame and one-time increases by 60 to get a better idea of how much it affects the rank counter per second? Or would that be needlessly complicating things? ^_-

I believe I mention the 60 FPS thing at the beginning of the "per-frame rank" section...if it's not obvious enough I can add a bit more to make it so.

Glad to hear you like what you see so far...does the basic info seem accurate from what you've checked?

Also, Twiddle, PM me your email if you'd like a look at it too.

[Icarus]

Ahh yeah, I see it now. ^_^;;

Nope, everything seems to be in order, I'm quite happy with the first draft. Just need to get feedback from the resident hacker before the next step. ^_-

[BulletMagnet]

Okay, he should have his copy in his email now.

[Twiddle]

Great article, but I wonder how many people will get scared off when the numbers get pulled out.

Also, I have confirmed that changing autofire rate from default to a higher level as an attempt to lower the rank-per-frame to a slightly lower level (like say, from 36 to 33) does not work, so you might want to change that.

Raizing doesn't miss a thing!

[Icarus]

Great article, but I wonder how many people will get scared off when the numbers get pulled out.

That's just what I'm thinking.

Also, I have confirmed that changing autofire rate from default to a higher level as an attempt to lower the rank-per-frame to a slightly lower level (like say, from 36 to 33) does not work, so you might want to change that.

Raizing doesn't miss a thing!

Was there any doubt? When you design a system as complex as this one with so many variables to take into account, bugs/flaws in the calculation can be exploited for the player's benefit.

This is probably one of the most sadistic in-game systems ever devised, but I love it. ^_-

[BulletMagnet]

Also, I have confirmed that changing autofire rate from default to a higher level as an attempt to lower the rank-per-frame to a slightly lower level (like say, from 36 to 33) does not work, so you might want to change that.

Ah, okay, I'll edit that out. However, now I ought to ask how exactly this DOES work, now...to use the same example I used in the write-up, say you raise the per-frame rank to 24 via items, and then raise the autofire rate to 12 shots per second...will the total per-frame rank then be 36 (24 x 1.5) or 35 ([22 x 1.5] + 2)? I'll need to put that tidbit in the place of the incorrect info.

Great article, but I wonder how many people will get scared off when the numbers get pulled out.

I attempted to make the thing at least somewhat accessible (mainly by nixing the hex numbers and "breaking down" the numbers after displaying them) and emphasizing that memorizing all the different numbers isn't important, just having a general idea of what affects what the most...it is still definitely daunting though, and I'm not sure how much more I can do to "bring it to the masses," so to speak...any suggestions on that one?

Anything else aside from the above that either of you can think to edit/change?

[Icarus]

I attempted to make the thing at least somewhat accessible (mainly by nixing the hex numbers and "breaking down" the numbers after displaying them) and emphasizing that memorizing all the different numbers isn't important, just having a general idea of what affects what the most...it is still definitely daunting though, and I'm not sure how much more I can do to "bring it to the masses," so to speak...any suggestions on that one?

Anything else aside from the above that either of you can think to edit/change?

I dunno. Maybe shuffing the guide a bit so that you have the "Basic Strategies' (the bits that are at the end before the Conclusion) first, so that people have a good idea what rank does and how to control it (without the scary numbers), with the Rank System In-depth Analysis section going into more depth with the numbers? Maybe if people got a good idea of what to do from the get-go, they might feel compelled to read on to the more in-depth sections to get an understanding of how it all works.

Just a suggestion.

Other than that, I can see nothing else to add besides any corrections from Twiddle. ^_^

[BulletMagnet]

Maybe shuffing the guide a bit so that you have the "Basic Strategies' (the bits that are at the end before the Conclusion) first, so that people have a good idea what rank does and how to control it (without the scary numbers), with the Rank System In-depth Analysis section going into more depth with the numbers? Maybe if people got a good idea of what to do from the get-go, they might feel compelled to read on to the more in-depth sections to get an understanding of how it all works.

I could try that. I'd need to edit the items a bit, but other than that it's mainly just a cut n' paste deal. Once I get the new info from Twiddle and edit that in, I'll move the "digest" section around and send you the second draft, to see if you like it better. You want a copy of draft number 2 as well when it's done, Twiddle?

One caveat I'd include on that idea, though, is that telling people to die regularly, not collect weapons, not hoard bombs, etc. right from the get-go might be as intimidating and off-putting as all the numerical data. Heck, even in my own case, when I first heard of Garegga way back when, it wasn't numbers that put me off at first, and I'd think it's the same with many players.

[Icarus]

One caveat I'd include on that idea, though, is that telling people to die regularly, not collect weapons, not hoard bombs, etc. right from the get-go might be as intimidating and off-putting as all the numerical data. Heck, even in my own case, when I first heard of Garegga way back when, it wasn't numbers that put me off at first, and I'd think it's the same with many players.

To be honest, the players that will actually bother to explore the two Rank sections might already have some idea of what it entails, and may look at the sections to clarify/discover more. Numbers might scare them off, but a Basics section firsthand might give them some idea and grounding to set them off in the right direction, and to come back once they have a better understanding of the system at work to see how it all works in the background.

I do understand your putting the Basic Strategies section at the end to summarise, but in this case, perhaps it might be better to summarise the strategies first, before delving deeper? Just a thought.

Dunno, if I was just coming into Garegga the first time and I heard all this suicide/surpress weapons/bomb a crapload deal in the main forum, I'd be looking to see exactly what I had to do to keep rank down before I got my hands dirty with numbers. ^_-

EDIT: Spelling. -_-;;

[BulletMagnet]

Well, again, we'll try it out and see which works better. I'll email you the next draft once I get the necessary info from Twiddle.

[Twiddle]

Also, I have confirmed that changing autofire rate from default to a higher level as an attempt to lower the rank-per-frame to a slightly lower level (like say, from 36 to 33) does not work, so you might want to change that.

Ah, okay, I'll edit that out. However, now I ought to ask how exactly this DOES work, now...to use the same example I used in the write-up, say you raise the per-frame rank to 24 via items, and then raise the autofire rate to 12 shots per second...will the total per-frame rank then be 36 (24 x 1.5) or 35 ([22 x 1.5] + 2)? I'll need to put that tidbit in the place of the incorrect info.

The autofire RPF increase doesn't take the previous value to account at all if it was lower than the new proposed one -- it doesn't multiply the current value, it just gives a new one based on your region and DIP switch settings.

The autofire raise rank-per-frame overwrite, if the previous value was less than the new one, will take effect.

(8.6hz: old RPF: 24, 12hz: new RPF: 33, more than 24, overwritten. Final RPF = 33)

If the previous value is more than the new one, the previous value will be kept.

(8.6hz: old RPF: 36, 12hz: new RPF: 33, less than 36, not overwritten. Final RPF = 36)

I attempted to make the thing at least somewhat accessible (mainly by nixing the hex numbers and "breaking down" the numbers after displaying them) and emphasizing that memorizing all the different numbers isn't important, just having a general idea of what affects what the most...it is still definitely daunting though, and I'm not sure how much more I can do to "bring it to the masses," so to speak...any suggestions on that one?

Anything else aside from the above that either of you can think to edit/change?

I think the basics should be kept in the beginning part of the article, as Icarus suggested.

You can go ahead and email me the second draft when you've done it.

[BulletMagnet]

If the previous value is more than the new one, the previous value will be kept.

Ah, okay, now I get it. Will edit appropriately.

I think the basics should be kept in the beginning part of the article, as Icarus suggested.

Okay, that'll be where I'll put 'em for the second draft, if you think it reads better that way, then by all means keep it.

[BulletMagnet]

Okay, the second draft has been sent to you both, let me know how it looks.

[Icarus]

Okay, the second draft has been sent to you both, let me know how it looks.

Awesome. Let me finish watching Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and I'll fetch it and take a look. Just about finished writing the stage7 section tonight as well, so it should be a nice update coming. ^_^