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 Post subject: RQ: Ketsui: 2nd score 1up, clearing st. 4, boss in st. 4...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:42 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
I have a few questions about Ketsui.

First, I am worried about getting the 1up from reaching the 45-million-point milestone. Somewhere in stage 4, I only reach the 20-million-point milestone, so I fear that I'll never reach 45 million points by the end of the descending section in stage 5 (where I expect to lose my 6th life). If I get 20 million points near the beginning of stage 4, how many points should I expect to earn by the end of the descending section in stage 5? What if I get 20 million points before the boss in stage 4? I'll use your responses to figure out the minimum number of additional points needed to get this 1up.

Second, I would like to clear stage 4 in the next shmupmeet. So far, I have distributed 14 bombs to the first 4 stages. But I think I have 18 available in the first 4 stages, so that leaves me with 4 bombs remaining. Although I have played the game for a few hours, I don't have a firm grasp of where to place these remaining bombs. Given that my goal is to only clear stage 4, how would you modify my bomb distribution so that I use all 18 bombs? Here is my bomb distribution for you to review:

Third, for the second form of the boss in stage 4, is its second attack (the one with the armor pieces crawling about the perimeter of the screen) fixed? That is, will the bullets appear in the same places in all games?

Fourth, if you have cleared the first round already, how long did it take you to do so?

(Edited to include the third question.)
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 Post subject: Re: RQ: Ketsui: 2nd score 1up, clearing st. 4, boss in st. 4
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:30 am 


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BER wrote:
First, I am worried about getting the 1up from reaching the 45-million-point milestone. Somewhere in stage 4, I only reach the 20-million-point milestone, so I fear that I'll never reach 45 million points by the end of the descending section in stage 5 (where I expect to lose my 6th life). If I get 20 million points near the beginning of stage 4, how many points should I expect to earn by the end of the descending section in stage 5? What if I get 20 million points before the boss in stage 4? I'll use your responses to figure out the minimum number of additional points needed to get this 1up.

getting the 2nd extend in stage 4 is not hard, here is an easy to attain score breakdown :
-stage 1: 10 000 000
-stage 2: 25 000 000
-stage 3: 35 000 000
-stage 4: 45 000 000
if you don't die too much in stage 4 and score a bit in the easy parts, it should net you about 15m.
for stage 5, you should get about 10m to the mid boss. after that, the score increases fast because of the small planes rush.

BER wrote:
Second, I would like to clear stage 4 in the next shmupmeet. So far, I have distributed 14 bombs to the first 4 stages. But I think I have 18 available in the first 4 stages, so that leaves me with 4 bombs remaining. Although I have played the game for a few hours, I don't have a firm grasp of where to place these remaining bombs. Given that my goal is to only clear stage 4, how would you modify my bomb distribution so that I use all 18 bombs? Here is my bomb distribution for you to review:


you could add 2 bombs as follows :
1/ST 4: at the 4th set of triangle planes
2/ST 4 boss: you should change your bomb distribution:
-at the second pattern (with the armor pieces) : 1 or even 2
-the curly red&blue pattern: you don't need to bomb (just herd the curls) but let's say you use 1
-the pattern with the sphere above the tank
-the final pattern where you have to go around the screen, sometimes it can trap you.
BER wrote:
Third, for the second form of the boss in stage 4, is its second attack (the one with the armor pieces crawling about the perimeter of the screen) fixed? That is, will the bullets appear in the same places in all games?

it at least depends on you positionning, plus maybe a random factor.
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 Post subject: Re: RQ: Ketsui: 2nd score 1up, clearing st. 4, boss in st. 4
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:14 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
Thanks for the advice, chtimi.

I accidentally wiped out my original message, though. I copied my list structure from the original message, so that I can modify it when I was replying to Valgar. But I accidentally pasted my reply to Valgar in this message and submitted the "edit".

Basically, I commented on four things. First, I wanted to modify your score breakdown, and I wanted to know which alternative was easier to achieve: (1) using milestones that were lower than those in your breakdown or (2) scoring well in the first two or three stages and survive from there. Second, I basically accepted your suggested changes to my bomb distribution. Third, I wanted to verify what you meant by the fourth set of triangle planes (is this it:

http://shmups.com/beepreying/bbs/ketsui_stage4-4thSet.png).

And fourth, I asked whether I should change from the Type B to the Type A in order to clear the first round. Although Valgar addressed some of these concerns, I still appreciate your comments.
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Last edited by BER on Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:52 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:50 am 



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
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BER, going for score in the first few levels will be even harder. I would say to get 10 million the first level though.

Get rid of this bomb:

4 T small copter raid after midboss Imakichi 4 2

There are only like 5 copters. Right after them Nightmare appears (the largest plane). You COULD use a bomb on Nightmare if you don't feel safe, but then 4 (or maybe more) triangle planes will appear after him. My suggestion is to kill the copters, then lock onto Nightmare and never let go, as soon as he dies and the Triangle planes come out, bomb and then kill the tanks coming from the top of the screen that move left.

If you do this then get rid of:

4 T "third tank from left, scrolling left" Imakichi 4 1

Because with the tanks you just killed gone, the ones from the left will come on screen one at a time. If you lock-on and stay at the bottom, and tap left after each pink circle is shot, you will be safe.

I would suggest adding bombs to more of the triangle planes at the start of Stage 4. A JP guide even said, memorization is needed for these or else you WILL die.

I think you should switch to ship A. The Lock-shot speed of both is the same. Are you just using lock-shot on the 3rd midboss? The main difference is the normal speed, but since the A ship has more range, you shouldn't have to move as much to hit enemies.

What did you think of Ketsui from the time you spent with it BER?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:38 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
Thanks for the advice, Valgar.

Valgar wrote:
BER, going for score in the first few levels will be even harder. I would say to get 10 million the first level though.

Okay, this makes sense. I saw Dave_K. score that well in this stage a few times, so I guess I can get the 10 million points, too. Now my milestones are as follows:

  • Stage 1: 10 million
  • Stage 2: 16 million
  • Stage 3: 28 million
  • Stage 4: 36 million
I'm more comfortable with this, now.

Valgar wrote:
Get rid of this bomb:

4 T small copter raid after midboss Imakichi 4 2

There are only like 5 copters. Right after them Nightmare appears (the largest plane). You COULD use a bomb on Nightmare if you don't feel safe, but then 4 (or maybe more) triangle planes will appear after him. My suggestion is to kill the copters, then lock onto Nightmare and never let go, as soon as he dies and the Triangle planes come out, bomb and then kill the tanks coming from the top of the screen that move left.

Yeah, I think Imakichi was careless when he ran into one of those copters' bullets in the special second round. I kept forgetting to bomb here, anyway, because I didn't feel threatened at all. I don't remember dying to the first Nightmare plane, either, but I am scared of those tanks arriving from the top. So I will reallocate one bomb in order to bomb them.

Valgar wrote:
If you do this then get rid of:

4 T "third tank from left, scrolling left" Imakichi 4 1

Okay, but I don't remember surviving through this area without bombs. So I am hesitant to reallocate this bomb. Where should I reallocate it?

Valgar wrote:
I would suggest adding bombs to more of the triangle planes at the start of Stage 4. A JP guide even said, memorization is needed for these or else you WILL die.

Actually, I have three prepared for this section. Should I reallocate more bombs to here anyway?

Valgar wrote:
I think you should switch to ship A. The Lock-shot speed of both is the same. Are you just using lock-shot on the 3rd midboss? The main difference is the normal speed, but since the A ship has more range, you shouldn't have to move as much to hit enemies.

I forgot what I did with the Type A. With the Type B, I used the lock-on only on the core part of the battleship; I destroyed everything else with the shot. And I can trigger the 1up consistently this way.

At any rate, I'll try to use the Type A and grow a spine in order to get faster full lock-ons. :)

Valgar wrote:
What did you think of Ketsui from the time you spent with it BER?

I thought it was better than all the other games in the shmupmeet. But I still don't want to commit to beating one of its Arcadia records, because I don't have the necessary tools to do so. I have discussed more about my impressions here:

http://www.free-conversant.com/gaming_journals/2304
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 Post subject: Re: RQ: Ketsui: 2nd score 1up, clearing st. 4, boss in st. 4
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:08 am 


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Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2407
Location: Tokyo
BER wrote:
Fourth, if you have cleared the first round already, how long did it take you to do so?


It took me about 3 months of casual play (an hour a day on average). I've cleared the round with both ships, I don't know which I'd recommend on clearing it fastest, but I did it first with the Tiger Shwert (and I'm more of a Panzer Jager player).

I'm surprised to hear you only get 20 million points by stage 4. Once you learn enemy positions and how to kill who fastest, the scores will follow. I think I have around 70-80 million by the time I finish stage 4.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:10 am 


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Code:
4   T   "midboss, first pattern"


I don't really agree with this one - I suggest moving it to the midboss's final pattern, with the large wavy blue bullets along the outside and the short blue bullets in the middle: it's more intense than its counterpart during the first phase, and because the width of the needle-like bullets in the middle is randomly close together or far apart, there's a good chance that you could get caught off guard and either get plowed down by it or slam into the side-lining bullets.

Image

Then again, maybe it's just me.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:39 am 


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russ wrote:
Code:
4   T   "midboss, first pattern"


I don't really agree with this one - I suggest moving it to the midboss's final pattern


Yup, I would also. The correction was mentioned in the other thread.

EDIT: I never cleared the round, got the game in the summer. Played a bit, but was still into Dangun. In the fall I played Strikers 2 and mixed in Ketsui. Stopped late October. Shouldn't take too long to clear once you get all the 1-ups, learn the patterns and develop a bomb plan.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:05 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
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Venom wrote:
russ wrote:
Code:
4   T   "midboss, first pattern"


I don't really agree with this one - I suggest moving it to the midboss's final pattern


Yup, I would also. The correction was mentioned in the other thread.

russ and Venom, thanks for bringing this up. I must've overlooked this correction in that other thread. I've reallocated this bomb to this midboss's final pattern.

I forgot whether I died once to this midboss's first form, though. But I guess I shouldn't have problems with it anyway.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:59 am 



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 367
dont have too much to add, but just wondering first, how much do you play before putting the bomb plans into use? like do you play for a while w/out bombs to see where you do/dont have problems, or just go with the plan? as you get better, you could remove a bunch or just reallocate them around.

as for the 45 mil 1up, i havent played for a while, but i was consistently getting it around the level 4 midboss, i think around the level 3 stage bonus sometimes too. if you score decently and survive, you shouldnt have too much trouble getting it. i figure it shouldnt be too hard to get around 10 mil/level minimum at a certain point.

and i use type-b myself, just for the speed. ive messed around with type-a and gotten good scores there too, but had to change some dodging strategies here and there. like if there was a wide sweep of bullets, i could just go around with b, but have to be a bit more prepared for it with a, stuff like that where i compensated with speed basically.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:01 pm 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
japtor wrote:
dont have too much to add, but just wondering first, how much do you play before putting the bomb plans into use? like do you play for a while w/out bombs to see where you do/dont have problems, or just go with the plan? as you get better, you could remove a bunch or just reallocate them around.

In the shmupmeet, I put the plan into use immediately. I knew I had no time to determine where I would have problems. So I had to trust the advice from the more experienced players.

I have been given the opportunity to play the game again sometime, though. But I still doubt I'll have the time to figure out anything on my own. So I'll continue to use the plan immediately. I'll start thinking for myself as soon as I feel that my bomb distribution fails to work.
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 Post subject: Re: RQ: Ketsui: 2nd score 1up, clearing st. 4, boss in st. 4
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:54 am 


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Location: France
BER wrote:
Third, I wanted to verify what you meant by the fourth set of triangle planes (is this it:
http://shmups.com/beepreying/bbs/ketsui_stage4-4thSet.png).

i'm not sure, it's too blurry, but i mean this: at the beginning of the stage, there are two waves of triangle planes (one from the left edge, then one from the right). then 2 more from the top. so the 4th wave is the second wave that comes from the top.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:39 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
I have two more questions about Ketsui. The first concerns my assessment of the (supposedly) toughest situations in the first round. And the second concerns the method we use to learn how to earn a high score.

First, I have ranked each situation in my current bomb distribution based on its "easiness" relative to other situations. And here is the spreadsheet:

The "e" column ranks the "easiness" of each situation with 1 being the easiest. (I never visited stage 5 yet, so I don't know if anything there is deceptively easy.) Do you have any comments on my rankings? In particular, how would you rank the above situations? You can still suggest better places to use the bomb, and redo my rankings. At any rate, I'll use your advice to determine how to reallocate my bombs in case I find better places to use the bomb.

Second, how are you learning to score as high as you can? I'm thinking about studying where Imakichi uses the lock-on shot in each stage of his replay. But I would appreciate learning about other methods.

I'll be stuck discussing about strategy until I have the chance to play the game again. Please bear with me. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:46 am 


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I think you're over analyzing this... to say the least. Ketsui's not a game you map out really... at least not your bombs. You know when your ass is going to get pounded just before it happens. Bomb there. It won't hurt to have one open for the parts you usually suck at.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:49 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
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GaijinPunch wrote:
I think you're over analyzing this... to say the least. Ketsui's not a game you map out really... at least not your bombs. You know when your ass is going to get pounded just before it happens. Bomb there. It won't hurt to have one open for the parts you usually suck at.

I hate using bombs for emergency evasion. As an entry-level Ketsui player, I found lots of places (other than those listed in my bomb distribution) that could've pounded my ass. If I kept bombing out of those places, I would have no bombs left (or maybe just one as you've suggested) for the places that are truly difficult--the places in my bomb distribution. The bomb distribution prevents me from running out of bombs unexpectedly. That is in part why I still continue to distribute bombs carefully.

Now, if I do die in a place other than those listed in my bomb distribution, it tells me one of two things. Either that place is more difficult than the ones listed in the bomb distribution, so I should consider redistributing my bombs. Or I simply died foolishly. If I used bombs for emergency evasion, I wouldn't know whether a place is difficult. And I want to know so.

Also, I have achieved decent results with the bomb distribution. With its help, I have done the following:

  • Cleared Giga Wing 2 (even though this game is easy to clear, I was a beginner back then!)
  • Reached stage 2-4 in Gunbird 2
  • Reached stage 2-6 in Strikers 1945
  • Cleared both rounds of Strikers 1945 III
  • Reached the last form of the boss in stage 4 in Ketsui with about four hours of play time
I don't think I would've achieved these results if I simply bombed everything that scared me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:15 am 


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Hmmm, I hardly ever bomb. I only do when I feel I need to.

As for scoring, This is how I usually end up

Stage 1 - 13-14million
Stage 2 - 28-32 million
Stage 3 - 42-45 million
Stage 4 - 54-58 million
Stage 5 - :cry:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:42 am 



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 367
put ketsui back in the cab last week, got a while to go to get back to old form. a few 50 mil runs but ugly, far from my consistent 60 mil/stage 5 runs i used to be able to do. from my new found play time, in terms of bombing strategy at least, just save it all for 5. overstating that a bit of course, but itll destroy you. its pretty much hard the whole way through, but the first part can be manageable with practice at least, then it just bumps up difficulty further. the boss is one of the easier parts of the level for me if that says anything.

if i had to use bombs elsewhere my main ones would be on the level 4 boss. one on the part w/the core that comes out the top w/the boss staying underneath...which ive been doing completely differently from the replay goin around. may not need that bomb anymore. the other is on the last form, which i can get past without a bomb, so that one is more of an emergency one too.

any other place to bomb just depends on the situation. sometimes get into problems with the big plane at the end of 3, other times not at all. otherwise the triangular planes in 4, they can completely destroy me or not cause too much trouble depending on how stuff plays out.

Quote:
Second, how are you learning to score as high as you can? I'm thinking about studying where Imakichi uses the lock-on shot in each stage of his replay. But I would appreciate learning about other methods.

start the 5 counter by point blanking and go around with lock until the timer goes out, repeat. thats pretty much it. of course that goes against logic as they shoot more at you, so just figure out where its safe or easy to trigger the counter, which enemies, etc. if you really get comfortable with the system then you play psycho/stupid and get 5s for everything. just go with your own moves basically, the system is pretty open and easy to work with. take advantage of that.

and uh, no bombs. the way the end level bonus works, the bombs are worth quite a bit iirc. course the same could be said about not dying. segue into stage 1ups, cant get them if you bomb, so its sort of a double bonus if you can get it (keep bomb bonus and get more life bonus).

as for the overall bomb strategy topic, personally i pretty much just dont use bombs much. eventually with play i just learn where the hard parts for me are, and even then i only use them as a last ditch option. course if you cant play much its not really an option.


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