LTTP: Ys - where to start?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Don't know about origin, but I'm pretty sure Oath in Felghana was meant to be played with an analogue stick.

[Estebang]

Felghana and Origin both started on the PC (the latter has not left it), so I doubt it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Felghana and Ys II Complete both support vibration feedback, most likely put in there with joypads à la DualSHock in mind as well. I know about mice with vibrations, but those are not very common.

[Estebang]

I guess, but I'm pretty sure that analog movement was added for at least the PSP version of Ys I & II Chronicles.

[gct]

You can move in all directions if you use the mouse in the PC version of Ys I & II Complete. Game is still better played with a D-pad.

[Aisha]

Can Xanadu Next be played without having played any of the other Xanadu games? Is there continuity between them? I've been meaning to get into Falcom's games but I hate playing things out of order.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I guess, but I'm pretty sure that analog movement was added for at least the PSP version of Ys I & II Chronicles.

It's been there at least since Complete (most likely Eternal too). You can play Complete with either mouse or analogue stick. 8-directional movement is optional (you can disable other directions in the menu).
As for Felghana, it's a 3D platformer. Those tend to be most playable with analogue sticks.

You can move in all directions if you use the mouse in the PC version of Ys I & II Complete. Game is still better played with a D-pad.

I'd say it's better with analogue stick (at least a stiff one), which also allows you to move in all directions. That being said, I found some bosses in the first one (on Hard) easier to defeat with a mouse.

[undamned]

Can Xanadu Next be played without having played any of the other Xanadu games? Is there continuity between them? I've been meaning to get into Falcom's games but I hate playing things out of order.

Xanadu Next is the only Xanadu game I had ever played at the time. I can't read Japanese, so I couldn't tell you what I was missing from previous games. What I can tell you is it was an absolute blast without even knowing the story
-ud

[Nico87]

Xanadu Next is only a spin-off and can be played without having played any other Faxanadu/Xanadu games.

I can confirm that my Saturn USB pad works perfectly fine with my Vista version of Ys Origin.

I just won an auction for Ys: The Oath in Felghana Limited Edition for PC (98/XP) version. Does anyone know if I can use my Saturn pad with this one aswell?

[BIL]

Yep - I cleared Felghana's Nightmare and Inferno difficulties with my USB Saturn-style pad, controlled like a dream.

I wouldn't want to play these games (Ys I/II Complete, Felghana or Origin) with analogue controls any more than I would Gunspike or Shock Troopers. The boss attack patterns get pretty intense on higher difficulties and the slightest mis-step will wipe out a huge chunk of your lifebar.

[mrsmiley381]

Can Xanadu Next be played without having played any of the other Xanadu games? Is there continuity between them? I've been meaning to get into Falcom's games but I hate playing things out of order.

Wikipedia tells me that it's not related in any way and the translation patch is out now. So go for it! I'm probably going to play it once I finish up Record of Lodoss War and the Phantasy Star Universe canon. And Ys I & II. It's in my to-do list somewhere.

One of these days I will make another attempt at Faxanadu. Trying that when I was thirteen and mostly dumb did not quite work out.

[Nico87]

Yep - I cleared Felghana's Nightmare and Inferno difficulties with my USB Saturn-style pad, controlled like a dream.

I wouldn't want to play these games (Ys I/II Complete, Felghana or Origin) with analogue controls any more than I would Gunspike or Shock Troopers. The boss attack patterns get pretty intense on higher difficulties and the slightest mis-step will wipe out a huge chunk of your lifebar.

XP version of Felgh?

[BIL]

Yeah, I was playing on Windows XP.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wouldn't want to play these games (Ys I/II Complete, Felghana or Origin) with analogue controls any more than I would Gunspike or Shock Troopers. The boss attack patterns get pretty intense on higher difficulties and the slightest mis-step will wipe out a huge chunk of your lifebar.

Horses for courses, but I doubt Gunspike (let alone Shock Troopers) really supports analogue controls. Playing Ys games with analogue sticks, provided the "free movement" is enabled, doesn't quite feel like playing arcade oldies with analogue sticks emulating 8-directional controllers.
With the joypad I used it certainly felt better than Neo Contra (where analogue aim is precise, but the bullet dodging leaves a lot to be desired). The analogue stick has never let me down in Ys games.

[BIL]

My point exactly. Shock Troopers and Gunspike don't have any analogue control whatsoever - the more recent Ys PC titles need analogue movement about as much. Boss battles at higher difficulties are the real challenge and demand similar levels of accuracy to avoid disaster. Platforming is a non-issue (at least Felghana's - haven't played Origin as much).

edit: and it goes without saying players should use whatever works best for them, but if the analogue stick has really never let you down in these games, why did you have an easier time beating some bosses in Ys I with a mouse? Not exactly a ringing endorsement there.

[Moniker]

One of these days I will make another attempt at Faxanadu. Trying that when I was thirteen and mostly dumb did not quite work out.

I recently started playing this and other Zelda2-likes. Really fun, but it takes a little getting used to - like Zelda2. The Wonderboy/Monsterland/world games are pretty amazing. Each game is worth playing on its own merits, since it very slowly went from more linear platformers with rpg-elements to full-blown exploration type games.

I bought Ys I&II for the nds at one point and returned it. I feel like I'll probably give them another shot at some point, but maybe with a later installment. There are so many versions and ports out there it's hard to figure out what to do (I'll need to read this thread in its entirety, probably).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Shock Troopers and Gunspike don't have any analogue control whatsoever - the more recent Ys PC titles need analogue movement about as much. Boss battles at higher difficulties are the real challenge and demand similar levels of accuracy to avoid disaster.

As if "analogue" meant "inaccurate". Mapping 8 directions onto analogue controller doesn't work well indeed, but is not what analogue controls are about. Otherwise Cave shmups for iPhone wouldn't be playable (I know it's not quite the way Ys games control; perhaps the Working Designs edition of Thunder Force V with its analogue stick support - where you still change speed digitally - is a better analogy, if still not quite there).

edit: and it goes without saying players should use whatever works best for them, but if the analogue stick has really never let you down in these games, why did you have an easier time beating some bosses in Ys I with a mouse?

Because mouse isn't too shabby a controller either, even though the game wasn't balanced with it in mind. Peerless when it comes to circular and half-circular adjustments, less adequate when you just have to run for it straight. That's why I took the centipede boss down in a couple of seconds first time I saw it (still not sure how it was supposed to be any threat), but at the boss bursting into the flock of bats, with all that running along the walls to do, I switched to the joypad.
Played II with analogue stick all the way through and never looked back, though. Zava bossfight on Hard was practically an arena shooter and nothing about it seemed undodgeable.

[BIL]

As if "analogue" meant "inaccurate".

It seems to in these games' cases, as you've posted more than once about resorting to secondary control methods to deal with the first game's bosses. Which do get pretty hectic with all the projectiles flying around.

Because mouse isn't too shabby a controller either, even though the game wasn't balanced with it in mind. Peerless when it comes to circular and half-circular adjustments, less adequate when you just have to run for it straight. That's why I took the centipede boss down in a couple of seconds first time I saw it (still not sure how it was supposed to be any threat), but at the boss bursting into the flock of bats, with all that running along the walls to do, I switched to the joypad.

Why are you vouching for a particular input method when you've stated you couldn't even settle on one in the same thread? :/ Like I said, I wouldn't want to play these games with analogue controls. Because I've cleared them satisfactorily with digital like dozens of other intense action games. If I thought there was a problem in this case I'd have switched, but bosses kept dying and cash kept rolling in like I was playing Gun.Smoke.

I don't see Felghana demanding analogue over digital, either. It's also all about flawlessly evading tight patterns for counterattacks. Business as usual in old-school action gaming land. But then I've never argued any of the various input options are "the way it's meant to be played™." A player on Youtube ripped Inferno boss rush a new ass with his keyboard.

Played II with analogue stick all the way through and never looked back, though. Zava bossfight on Hard was practically an arena shooter and nothing about it seemed undodgeable.

Good thing Ys II has Celceta flowers and Shield magic, otherwise Zava and her pesky bats might be "nearly as tough as Dark Fact." ;]

[Deca]

I'd been meaning to get into this series forever and managed to snag a copy of Ys Chronicles last month, I love it! I'm still playing Ys 1 working my way through Darm Tower, currently fighting a pair of big flying heads. This game is absolutely beautiful to look at, I haven't even finished the first and I'm excited to play through it again with the different soundtracks (started out with the PC98 one) as well as branching out into other games in the series.

Developing quite an interest in Falcom as a whole, going to have to play through more of their translated library.

[gct]

I love reading about how JRPG people get destroyed by the bosses, the bat boss in particular and getting stuck forever. Sure they're tricky, but anybody here used to playing twitch action or pattern-based memorization games should be able to beat them without too many tries.

[Obiwanshinobi]

As if "analogue" meant "inaccurate".

It seems to in these games' cases, as you've posted more than once about resorting to secondary control methods to deal with the first game's bosses. Which do get pretty hectic with all the projectiles flying around.

I've never posted about the projectiles being tricky to dodge with analogue controllers as I did not find them inaccurate in this regard. Strictly speaking, running straight is the only thing about those games I found the mouse not particulary good for (not a problem with analogue stick, obviously).

Why are you vouching for a particular input method when you've stated you couldn't even settle on one in the same thread?

I liked to experiment with my games. In case of Ys I started with a mouse, switched to the joypad at the bat boss, then played most of the game with it. As a matter of fact, I played through the entire II with analogue joypad.

Played II with analogue stick all the way through and never looked back, though. Zava bossfight on Hard was practically an arena shooter and nothing about it seemed undodgeable.

Good thing Ys II has Celceta flowers and Shield magic, otherwise Zava and her pesky bats might be "nearly as tough as Dark Fact." ;]

Different fights, though, since Dark Fact isn't about dodging at all - it's about chasing - whereas Zava is about dodging and endurance, like some shmup boss. I can't blame the controller for the hard time I had fighting either, same way I can't blame digital controllers for my sucking at shmups. There's quite a difference between not being good at the game and not being satisfied with the controls.

I love reading about how JRPG people get destroyed by the bosses, the bat boss in particular and getting stuck forever. Sure they're tricky, but anybody here used to playing twitch action or pattern-based memorization games should be able to beat them without too many tries.

"The bat boss in particular?" I suppose everybody, not just jRPG people, would agree that in the PC version on Hard there's no boss tougher than Dark Fact. By the way, there's hardly any pattern to memorise about him.

[BIL]

I've never posted about the projectiles being tricky to dodge with analogue controllers as I did not find them inaccurate in this regard. Strictly speaking, running straight is the only thing about those games I found the mouse not particulary good for (not a problem with analogue stick, obviously).

My bad, it's hard to interpret why one would use a mouse on the Boulder boss and analogue on Dark Fact when I killed them both with a d-pad. So, everything before Ys Bat boss: mouse season. Then up to Boulders boss: analogue season. Then up to Dark Fact: mouse season again. Dark Fact and Ys II: analogue season. Is that all correct? This is all a bit of a turnoff to someone who's cleared these games comfortably with the same digital pad, you understand. It's not like I had to switch to my DC fishing rod for the first game's Mantis boss, and Ys II was more of the same with added ranged attack, healing and shield crutches. :/

I liked to experiment with my games. In case of Ys I started with a mouse, switched to the joypad at the bat boss, then played most of the game with it. As a matter of fact, I played through the entire II with analogue joypad.

I like the input method that gets me the best results. When the same digital pad that got me through the "breakdance on a postage stamp" intensity of Gun.Smoke's last boss performs swimmingly on a bunch of moderately demanding action RPGs, I won't give analogue a second thought unless it's shown to produce notably superior results. The more impressive boss rushes I've seen for Ys I through Origin have apparently been on a keyboard. I honestly cannot see the point of analogue in this case, besides an extra degree of floppiness under my thumb.

Different fights, though, since Dark Fact isn't about dodging at all - it's about chasing - whereas Zava is about dodging and endurance, like some shmup boss.

Dark Fact is very much about dodging. You'll die well before he does if you're running into the set paths of his bullet patterns, and jerking away from them randomly will lose him at best and create random pits at worst. The strategy for consistently killing him involves intelligently dodging the vast majority of his bullets, hitting him while not pitting yourself into a corner, and taking a calculated loss or two where he presents an obvious opening. Otherwise you'll just be waiting for that odd lucky attempt.

Point is, Ys II's later bosses would probably be as unforgiving as the first game's if it wasn't so much more generous with healing and defensive abilities. It's an easier game in that regard. You don't need to dodge most of Dharm's attacks because the equipment will soak them up for you.

I can't blame the controller for the hard time I had fighting either, same way I can't blame digital controllers for my sucking at shmups. There's quite a difference between not being good at the game and not being satisfied with the controls.

It sounds more like, to use your terms, you're satisfied with not being very good. :/ Which is fine, I am too, but I'm not speaking from incompetence when I say I'd as soon play Gunspike or Shock Troopers with analogue sticks as these games.

[Obiwanshinobi]

My bad, it's hard to interpret why one would use a mouse on the Boulder boss and analogue on Dark Fact when I killed them both with a d-pad.

Happens when you try different methods to decide which is better. Started with the mouse because it was, you know, already hooked up, as usual.

So, everything before Ys Bat boss: mouse season. Then up to Boulders boss: analogue season. Then up to Dark Fact: mouse season again. Dark Fact and Ys II: analogue season. Is that all correct?

More like: from the bat boss onwards pretty much only analogue stick, except for boulders and twin heads (I tried both methods alternately and happened to defeat those two with a mouse).

This is all a bit of a turnoff to someone who's cleared these games comfortably with the same digital pad, you understand. It's not like I had to switch to my DC fishing rod for the first game's Mantis boss, and Ys II was more of the same with added ranged attack, healing and shield crutches. :/

Well, I never said I was FORCED to use the mouse against boulders and twin heads. It just came in handy. Kind of like I played through the majority of Brave Fencer Musashi with analogue, but switched to the d-pad during bossfights happening on 2D plane. I don't get why it would sound like a turnoff to anybody. Even if you play your PC games away from mouse and keyboard, there's no reason to not give analogue stick and free movement a try with, say, an Xbox 360 pad.
I've experienced lackluster implementation of analogue controls in a number of similar games (even Silent Bomber wouldn't be that great with analogue if you couldn't dash over projectiles and I don't think Neo Contra nails it either), but found those Ys games perfectly playable this way with the joypad I used.

I like the input method that gets me the best results. When the same digital pad that got me through the "breakdance on a postage stamp" intensity of Gun.Smoke's last boss performs swimmingly on a bunch of moderately demanding action RPGs, I won't give analogue a second thought unless it's shown to produce notably superior results. The more impressive boss rushes I've seen for Ys I through Origin have apparently been on a keyboard. I honestly cannot see the point of analogue in this case, besides an extra degree of floppiness under my thumb.

Unless you are posting from your workplace or something along those lines, you could've probably tried out for yourself by now how analogue stick fares in those games. I'm not telling anybody to buy a Logitech steering wheel to get the most out of Ys.

Dark Fact is very much about dodging. You'll die well before he does if you're blundering into the set paths of his bullet patterns, and jerking away from them randomly will lose him at best and create random pits at worst. The strategy for consistently killing him involves intelligently dodging the vast majority of his bullets, hitting him while not pitting yourself into a corner, and taking a calculated loss or two where he presents an obvious opening. Otherwise you'll just be waiting for that odd lucky attempt.

"Bullet patterns" sounds too generous. I don't recall any pattern about those bullets. Also, while I could barely believe I finally got him, it wasn't a fluke after all. I kept gradually doing better and better, and then it happened. That's what I call "making progress".

It sounds more like, to use your terms, you're satisfied with not being very good. :/ Which is fine, I am too, but I'm not speaking from incompetence when I say I'd as soon play Gunspike or Shock Troopers with analogue sticks as these games.

Then again, the movement in Gunspike and Shock Troopers being only 8-directional makes such attempts pretty pointless, but using analogue stick in Ys allows you to utilise a feature ("free movement") developers put in there for a reason. Always better to try out for yourself whether it's helpful or just tacked on rather than rely on one's assumptions.

[gct]

I love reading about how JRPG people get destroyed by the bosses, the bat boss in particular and getting stuck forever. Sure they're tricky, but anybody here used to playing twitch action or pattern-based memorization games should be able to beat them without too many tries.

"The bat boss in particular?" I suppose everybody, not just jRPG people, would agree that in the PC version on Hard there's no boss tougher than Dark Fact. By the way, there's hardly any pattern to memorise about him.

They would never reach Dark Fact if they're stuck on the bat boss forever

[Obiwanshinobi]

They would never reach Dark Fact if they're stuck on the bat boss forever

With jRPG people you never know.

[BIL]

post

Dark Fact's bullets explode outward from the initial meteor impact in the same eight-way pattern each and every time. If it's obvious from the meteor trajectories that several will overlap, you can still accurately judge where the bullets will be heading to minimise if not avoid damage. There's also a limit on how many meteors can strike at the same time, keeping the screen from becoming an undodgeable sea of bullets. If you can't analyse this much, you'll always have a rough time with things like shooters. Intelligible chaos is business as usual.

I wasn't relying on assumptions when I went with eight-way digital controls for these games. I went on past experiences and results with 2D action titles. As expected, the Saturn pad performed splendidly. Unless you've got some revolutionary analogue-only boss rush tactics to post, we've really nothing to discuss. :/

[drauch]

^I cannot beat Dark Fact on the original Turbografx. I tried all day one time. I had the ring and everything. God, bloody thing is so hard. I hear Chronicles is much easier?

[BIL]

No idea, sorry. With the first two games, I've only played Ys I&II Complete (Windows PC). Haven't a clue what earlier versions of Ys or ports based on I&II Complete play like.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Dark Fact's bullets explode outward from the initial meteor impact in the same eight-way pattern each and every time. If it's obvious from the meteor trajectories that several will overlap, you can still accurately judge where the bullets will be heading to minimise if not avoid damage. There's also a limit on how many meteors can strike at the same time, keeping the screen from becoming an undodgeable sea of bullets. If you can't analyse this much, you'll always have a rough time with things like shooters. Intelligible chaos is business as usual.

I wasn't relying on assumptions when I went with eight-way digital controls for these games. I went on past experiences and results with 2D action titles. As expected, the Saturn pad performed splendidly. Unless you've got some revolutionary analogue-only boss rush tactics to post, we've really nothing to discuss. :/

I sense horseshit. Care to share a vid where somebody actually dodges stuff (not just the meteor impact, but the shrapnel too, since the shrapnel is the only attack even resembling a pattern to me)?

[BIL]

"Resembling a pattern?" It's the same eight-way bullet burst every time in the eight cardinal and inter-cardinal compass directions. Like those on a good digital pad. Or a compass. The meteors and Dark Fact's movements are random, but the former are easy to see coming and the latter you want to collide with. The pits are created by the player.

So you want to stay off of those cardinal directions when meteors are landing near you and avoid running into existing bullets. You will inevitably take some damage while running about, but provided you're not retarded Dark Fact will always take much more and you'll kill him every time. Is that all clear enough for you? This isn't a particularly hard boss once you figure out it's okay (desirable, actually) to take a limited degree of collateral damage while scoring hits. It's general blindness to the bullet trajectories / stupid pit placement that'll turn it into a game of chance.

There aren't any PC Hard/Nightmare clears on YT at the moment, but there's a time attack here which at least demonstrates how to stay off the bullets' trajectories instead of blundering all over the place. There's a PSP Nightmare clear as well, but the player makes tons of mistakes and only survives by the skin of his teeth. At one point he runs the full length of a bullet's NE path taking damage all the way.