XRGB-mini Framemeister

[FBX]

Posting this as a separate message, but I found the issue to the picture dropping on res change for Bloodlines. It's the "Sync_Mode" setting under "Visual_Mode". I had it set to "Auto", but changing this to "Off" fixes the dropping issue. Must be something to do with how the timing is slightly different in 256 res, so the "Auto" setting forces the Framemeister to adjust for it.

[Pda]

I'm planning to give my PCB collection,which is almost only 15khz,a go,after too much shelves time (moving,cabs sent away..).I do have a Mini XRGB,XRGB 2 plus,a Pronitron 22.880 which was working last time i checked and a Panasonic Plasma.From what i understand,Mini is not ideal for Arcade stuff because of inherent input lag and lack of VGA ouput (i'll keep it anyways for my vintage console).

Is there some kind of Supergun with VGA output for my CRT? Would Supergun+XRGB2 plus combination better because of scaling options?

Cheers.

[Fudoh]

@FBX: but disabling the v-sync isn't a viable solution either. It will introduce stutter, jerky scrolling and increases your lag.

[FBX]

@FBX: but disabling the v-sync isn't a viable solution either. It will introduce stutter, jerky scrolling and increases your lag.

I haven't noticed any of those issue. No stuttering, no jerky scrolling, and no increased lag. I'll keep looking for these artifacts to crop up, but so far the Genny looks awesome.

Edit: Did some scrolling tests, and there is a frame-skip every 15 seconds roughly. This is identical to emulator behavior like Kega Fusion for example. So it would seem that's the give and take:

1. Play with frame-skips, but the res-change doesn't cause drop-outs.
2. Play with perfect timing, but res-changes causes drop-outs.

[Joelepain]

I'm interested in this for several consoles.

Is the n64 on your list ?
It has the same problem : ntsc software on a pal console and you have 60.90hz, xrgb detects 241p, wrong black levels, little frameskip every x frames etc...

If someone is doing it (or planning to do it) for n64, and installs the mod (because I don't have the skills to do something like this), i'm interested.

[12345]

Anybody here already tried his/her mini with a 4K TV yet? I wonder how they handle 720p +/- scanlines in comparison to regular 1080p sets, since the mini's output in 1080p still seems to be inferior to 720p....

@Joelepain
I'm also interested in doing such a mod for the N64.

[BuckoA51]

Region free on the N64 is pretty difficult, certainly more expensive than just buying a NTSC console, though the dual frequency oscillator would certainly benefit Everdrive users.

[Joelepain]

Yes I have a 64drive. I'm not really interested in a region free mod, as I know it will be complicated and expensive.
Buying an NTSC console could be an option, but you have to buy again all the games, which can be complicated and surely expensive too.
That's why I bought the 64 drive in the first place. But if a dual ocsillator mod is feasible for the n64, i'm interested.

[Jademalo]

So finally after a year of designing, acquiring and building my setup, I finally got my hands on an XRGB Mini. I've got a ton of questions which I'll get round to asking at some point, but a couple of quick ones for now.

First off, why is it that component video saves two different sets of position, width, sharpness, auto scaler etc. settings between 240p and 480i, whereas RGB seems to save only one set?
It's really annoying since obviously 240p sources I want to have sharpness 1 and (especially for the snes) slightly different alignment settings, and while that works for component it just seems weird that it doesn't for RGB.

Secondly, why is the SNES so weird?
If I want to have correct pixel mappings, I need to have H_POS at 91 and H_WIDTH at 12. That gets an asonishingly good and crisp image, (Like, waaay better than I was expecting,) but obviously it makes everything else that I have look completely wrong. After looking at my BVM as well, I've noticed most snes games are a bit squashed. It's really noticable with the star counter in Yoshi's Island.

Thirdly, why does the Mini not like having a feed in both RGB and Component?
If I have say both the Wii and the SNES turned on at the same time, there is a lot of instability and occasionally the screen flashes black or produces garbage.

And finally, a bit of a weird one.
I've got an AverMedia Extremecap U3, which is an insanely solid lossless HDMI capture card. I've also got a BenQ RL-2450HT monitor. The mini is plugged into both with a powered 4x2 HDMI Matrix.
On the monitor, the output from Yoshi's Island is absolutely incredible. Every pixel edge is extremely crisp, and it looks simply fantastic. However when it's running through my capture card, there is a noticable chroma shift on certain colours. The easiest way to see is the star counter again, on the monitor it is pure and precise yellow, whereas on the capture preview through both AmaRec and OBS it's lighter on the left hand side. I've tried to take a picture to highlight it, but i cant get a good enough photo of my monitor. Believe me when I say it's pure yellow =p

Thanks!

[austin532]

why is it that component video saves two different sets of position, width, sharpness, auto scaler etc. settings between 240p and 480i, whereas RGB seems to save only one set?
It's really annoying since obviously 240p sources I want to have sharpness 1 and (especially for the snes) slightly different alignment settings, and while that works for component it just seems weird that it doesn't for RGB.

Component can store up several different settings while outputting in HDMI mode, not just 2. Why RGB can't is beyond me but I can kind of see why they designed like that. Most retro games output 240p and tend to stay in 240p so there is no need to keep track of different settings. Where as systems that support Component can change from 240p, 480i, 480p, and 720p depending on the game. We are supposedly getting profiles to keep track of different settings in the future as hinted by fudoh but I'll believe when I see it.

[Sixfortyfive]

Secondly, why is the SNES so weird?
If I want to have correct pixel mappings, I need to have H_POS at 91 and H_WIDTH at 12. That gets an asonishingly good and crisp image, (Like, waaay better than I was expecting,) but obviously it makes everything else that I have look completely wrong. After looking at my BVM as well, I've noticed most snes games are a bit squashed. It's really noticable with the star counter in Yoshi's Island.

SNES (and NES) games usually have a horizontal resolution of 256 pixels. Other consoles often have a horizontal rez of 320 pixels. That might have something to do with it.

[Jademalo]

Component can store up several different settings while outputting in HDMI mode, not just 2. Why RGB can't is beyond me but I can kind of see why they designed like that. Most retro games output 240p and tend to stay in 240p so there is no need to keep track of different settings. Where as systems that support Component can change from 240p, 480i, 480p, and 720p depending on the game. We are supposedly getting profiles to keep track of different settings in the future as hinted by fudoh but I'll believe when I see it.

You say that, but I know for a fact my Mega Drive switches between 240p and 480i when going into the multiplayer of Sonic 2. That's just one I have off the top of my head.
It's a pain though, since obviously I've got a switch for multiple consoles, and all but the Wii are connected via RGB. To me there seems to be no point of not having multiple settings - If anything, using that logic, component should have a single setting to keep everything consistent.
Also is there any chance you could link to where he said that? Obviously profiles would solve every problem, but in my searching I haven't seen a single mention of them.

SNES (and NES) games usually have a horizontal resolution of 256 pixels. Other consoles often have a horizontal rez of 320 pixels. That might have something to do with it.

Wait, so would that mean the SNES runs at an aspect ratio of 8:7? How weird.

[Fudoh]

Also is there any chance you could link to where he said that?

I mentioned it recently. We should get profiles with the next update.

[Fudoh]

Wait, so would that mean the SNES runs at an aspect ratio of 8:7? How weird.

pixel ratio has little to do with visible aspect ratio.

Both CPS2 (384x224) and SNES (256x224) are actually 4:3 - to name the two extremes.

[Jademalo]

I mentioned it recently. We should get profiles with the next update.

Oh nice. I don't suppose there is any indication of roughly when that will be? =p

pixel ratio has little to do with visible aspect ratio.

Both CPS2 (384x224) and SNES (256x224) are actually 4:3 - to name the two extremes.

Sorry, that's what I meant to say. It seems weird though, you would think that the designers would design things to look correct on a 4:3 display, but the snes looks substantially squashed in everything I've played. You would think they would design it around non-square pixels if their horizontal resolution was low.

[austin532]

Component can store up several different settings while outputting in HDMI mode, not just 2. Why RGB can't is beyond me but I can kind of see why they designed like that. Most retro games output 240p and tend to stay in 240p so there is no need to keep track of different settings. Where as systems that support Component can change from 240p, 480i, 480p, and 720p depending on the game. We are supposedly getting profiles to keep track of different settings in the future as hinted by fudoh but I'll believe when I see it.

You say that, but I know for a fact my Mega Drive switches between 240p and 480i when going into the multiplayer of Sonic 2. That's just one I have off the top of my head.

As I said, "MOST" retro games output at 240p but there are a handfull of them that don't. Sonic 2 is the only Genesis/Megadrive game that supports 480i that I can think of. The PS1, N64, and Saturn all have a small selection of games that output in 480i.

[Jademalo]

As I said, "MOST" retro games output at 240p but there are a handfull of them that don't. Sonic 2 is the only Genesis/Megadrive game that supports 480i that I can think of. The PS1, N64, and Saturn all have a small selection of games that output in 480i.

Fair enough, I guess it was just a coincidence that one of the few games I own was one of the few that switched =p
Even so, I would argue that as many modern games switch between video modes as retro games do. Most resolution changing is done in system menus nowadays, and tends to stick to whatever you set it to regardless of the game. The only example I have off the top of my head that doesn't is the Wii Virtual Console, and as it happens the multiple settings are perfect for that. (I have Component 240p set to snes aspect ratios, but 480i perfect for the Wii itsself)

[Jademalo]

Finally got a good example - This is the Chroma shift I'm getting from the Extremecap.

http://i.imgur.com/1tPnb2t.png

If you zoom in it's really apparent. The left hand side of the numbers goes extremely white, the outer left of the circle is very red, and the outer right of the circle is very blue. Everything suffers from this, but on my monitor through HDMI it's flat out not there. The numbers are pure yellow, and the black is hard edged and defined.

No other sources suffer from this, it's just the XRGB Mini. Considering I bought them both since I'd heard they paired up extremely well, I'm a bit disappointed.

[FBX]

I mentioned it recently. We should get profiles with the next update.

Oh nice. I don't suppose there is any indication of roughly when that will be? =p

pixel ratio has little to do with visible aspect ratio.

Both CPS2 (384x224) and SNES (256x224) are actually 4:3 - to name the two extremes.

Sorry, that's what I meant to say. It seems weird though, you would think that the designers would design things to look correct on a 4:3 display, but the snes looks substantially squashed in everything I've played. You would think they would design it around non-square pixels if their horizontal resolution was low.

Artists generally take into account the shape of the 4:3 image they are working with no matter what the base resolution is. However, sometimes they forget. One good example is on Castlevania: Bloodlines, where the first boss area has a moon in the background. The moon looks squished in 4:3 aspect, but looks perfectly round when shown in square pixels. The artist simply got lazy there.

At any rate, you should check out my custom zoom settings for the SNES & Genesis in RGB for 1080p mode. If you don't mind playing without scanlines, it's the sharpest possible picture you can get:

*Note: Make SURE all your positioning and sizing options are at default in the mini. The below settings assume this.

Flicker reduction (all 240p RGB sources):

Brightness: 23
Gamma: 9
Black: 1
A/D: 131

4x scale perfect pixels 4:3 SNES:

Image_Mode: Picture (ALWAYS use this mode for 240p RGB sources)
HDMI Output: 1080_60p
Auto_Scale: Off
H_Scaler: 5
V_Scaler: 7
Zoom: On
Zoom_Size: 97
Zoom_Overscan: 86
TV display screen size: Full Pixel (or whatever your TV's equivalent is)

5x scale perfect pixels 4:3 SNES (overscans the top and bottom 4 rows of pixels):

Same settings as 4x, except change:

Zoom_Size: 90
Zoom_Overscan: 100

4x & 5x perfect pixels 4:3 Genesis:

Same as SNES, only add in changing Zoom_H_Pos to 61

The 5x scale Genesis settings are pretty much a must since there is graphical garbage on the bottom for the original NTSC consoles.

At any rate, you'll get perfectly scaled pixels that look like they were cut out of glass with these settings on a 1080p display. This is also assuming you have all the other sizing and positioning options at their defaults.

Edit: I should also stress these settings are for the NTSC SNES & Genesis.

[Jademalo]

Sweet, thanks for those!
I've currently got H_POS 91 and H_WIDTH 12 for my snes, and that is insanely sharp. I'll give yours a try in a bit, see what they look like.

Thanks!

[FBX]

Sweet, thanks for those!
I've currently got H_POS 91 and H_WIDTH 12 for my snes, and that is insanely sharp. I'll give yours a try in a bit, see what they look like.

Thanks!

You'll need to change those back to default settings before using my Zoom settings of course. I tried yours and all it did was squish the image without really making it any sharper. Then again, I'm using a CSYNC modded 1CHIP-03 SNES, which is about as sharp as it gets anyway.

[Jademalo]

Sweet, thanks for those!
I've currently got H_POS 91 and H_WIDTH 12 for my snes, and that is insanely sharp. I'll give yours a try in a bit, see what they look like.

Thanks!

You'll need to change those back to default settings before using my Zoom settings of course. I tried yours and all it did was squish the image without really making it any sharper. Then again, I'm using a CSYNC modded 1CHIP-03 SNES, which is about as sharp as it gets anyway.

Oh, I was mainly talking about aspect, those two seem to correct the weird squashedness of the SNES. I'm using a CSYNC SNES Mini.
These are my full settings;
Under IMAGE_MODE, set it to "PICTURE"
Under SCREEN_SET, set it to "STANDARD"
Under COLOR_SET, set BRIGHTNESS to 25, set GAMMA to 20, and set BLACK to 4/8/14
Under ASPECT_RATIO, set it to 4:3
Under VISUAL_SET, set DEEP_COLOR to OFF, set AUTO_SCALER to GAME, set H_POS to 91, set V_POS to 32, set H_WIDTH to 12, set V_WIDTH to 32, and finally set V_LINE to 1 if you want scanlines.
Under OPTIONS, set H_POLARITY to OFF, set V_POLARITY to OFF
Under HDMI_OUTPUT, set it to 720_60p

This is what it looks like through my capture card - Ignore the colour issues, they're a cap card problem and not an issue with the Mini.
http://i.imgur.com/pOJ3K9k.png

I'm still unsure about the black level, 14 makes it look like it does on my properly calibrated monitor, but 8 or so looks better. However, my mini sometimes starts super bright and sometimes super dark, if it's super dark then 4 is perfect, if it's super bright then it's either 14 or 8.


Also if anyone has any idea, this is my blue channel - http://i.imgur.com/qu8tbAc.png
Green is perfect and red is pretty much perfect, but blue is terrible. Any idea what could cause this?

[FBX]

Are you using an RGB cable? Also, is your display capable of 1080p? Reason I ask is 720p output from the Framemeister is an automatic loss of about 15% sharpness on a 1080p display.

Lastly, you can increase the sharpness even more by turning Auto_Scaler to Off and setting the H_Scale to 5 (I also set V_Scale to 7, but this is optional).

[Jademalo]

Are you using an RGB cable? Also, is your display capable of 1080p? Reason I ask is 720p output from the Framemeister is an automatic loss of about 15% sharpness on a 1080p display.

Lastly, you can increase the sharpness even more by turning Auto_Scaler to Off and setting the H_Scale to 5 (I also set V_Scale to 7, but this is optional).

Fully RGB modded with CSYNC, and my cables are all top notch. (Except for the 10m HDMI cable that seems to be adding a decent bit of noise, but not much I can do about that until I move everything.) The primary use for this is capturing, but my monitor also has a 1:1 pixel mode so 720p is better in general.
Also can anyone tell me how the H and V scale options actually work? With my quick testing I figured that game works best for progressive and video for interlaced, but ive got absolutely no idea what they actually do. I'll try 5/7 though, should be interesting.

[austin532]

I'm still unsure about the black level, 14 makes it look like it does on my properly calibrated monitor, but 8 or so looks better. However, my mini sometimes starts super bright and sometimes super dark, if it's super dark then 4 is perfect, if it's super bright then it's either 14 or 8.

This happens to me sometimes and I think this is a flaw with the mini. If I turn on the system first and then the mini it tends to output in YCbCr. If I turn on the mini first and then the system I get RGB.

[FBX]

I'm still unsure about the black level, 14 makes it look like it does on my properly calibrated monitor, but 8 or so looks better. However, my mini sometimes starts super bright and sometimes super dark, if it's super dark then 4 is perfect, if it's super bright then it's either 14 or 8.

This happens to me sometimes and I think this is a flaw with the mini. If I turn on the system first and then the mini it tends to output in YCbCr. If I turn on the mini first and then the system I get RGB.

Very strange. Mine doesn't do this at all. It always starts up from the last selected input, and it never varies on the brightness. I leave mine plugged in and just use the remote to turn it off and on, but that's probably not the reason.

[FBX]

Are you using an RGB cable? Also, is your display capable of 1080p? Reason I ask is 720p output from the Framemeister is an automatic loss of about 15% sharpness on a 1080p display.

Lastly, you can increase the sharpness even more by turning Auto_Scaler to Off and setting the H_Scale to 5 (I also set V_Scale to 7, but this is optional).

Fully RGB modded with CSYNC, and my cables are all top notch. (Except for the 10m HDMI cable that seems to be adding a decent bit of noise, but not much I can do about that until I move everything.) The primary use for this is capturing, but my monitor also has a 1:1 pixel mode so 720p is better in general.
Also can anyone tell me how the H and V scale options actually work? With my quick testing I figured that game works best for progressive and video for interlaced, but ive got absolutely no idea what they actually do. I'll try 5/7 though, should be interesting.

So I take it you are having your monitor not do any scaling then? This would mean the 720p source would appear with large black boarders on the top and bottom. If you are having it scale the image, then this goes back to what I was saying about the 15% loss of sharpness. It's always sharper to have the Framemeister send a 1080p signal to a 1080p display.

Anyway, the H_Scale and V_Scale control the sharpness in those directions (that's the effect anyway). When you turn Auto_Scaler off, you then can manually set the sharpness with those H and V scalers. This is how I found that H_Scale 5 is slightly sharper than the default 6.

[TheShadowRunner]

This happens to me sometimes and I think this is a flaw with the mini. If I turn on the system first and then the mini it tends to output in YCbCr. If I turn on the mini first and then the system I get RGB.

Yes definitely a flaw on the Mini side. On first HDMI handshake i'm getting RGB. On 2nd handshake YCbCr. The order in which the devices are switched on doesn't seem to make a difference here (console, TV, Mini).

-> switch TV ON, go to the Mini input (eg HDMI 1)
-> switch Mini ON, console ON: it outputs RGB
-> use the TV remote to select another input (eg HDMI 3) and then come back to the Mini input (HDMI 1).
-> Mini automagically switches to YCbCr

It would be pretty damn great if the Output Color choices were YCbCr / RGB Limited / RGB Full and the Mini sticked to it. For the current default "Auto" setting is definitely buggy.

[FBX]

Possibly why mine is perfectly stable on that is I currently ONLY have one source plugged in, and that's the JP-21 RGB adapter. I guess I should expect this issue to start cropping up when I get my D-Terminal cable in the mail from Solaris. I would have it already except they screwed up and sent me the wrong cable on my first order. They apologized and are sending the correct one, but it takes customs two weeks to clear these packages for me.

[TheShadowRunner]

Possibly why mine is perfectly stable on that is I currently ONLY have one source plugged in, and that's the JP-21 RGB adapter. I guess I should expect this issue to start cropping up when I get my D-Terminal cable in the mail from Solaris.

No that's independent of number of source(s) plugged. Try the procedure above to reproduce 100% of the time (check what it outputs in Special > Full Status > Page 2).