Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[Special World]

Yeah, I don't know how people can make the argument that this game bridges the gap to attract mainstream gamers when arcade and score attack basically only let you get hit once.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, I don't know how people can make the argument that this game bridges the gap to attract mainstream gamers when arcade and score attack basically only let you get hit once.

Translation: "we hope the more serious shmup fans are distracted by how pretty the game looks and ignore the design issues the game has".

[Special World]

Yeah, I don't know how people can make the argument that this game bridges the gap to attract mainstream gamers when arcade and score attack basically only let you get hit once.

Translation: "we hope the more serious shmup fans are distracted by how pretty the game looks and ignore the design issues the game has".

I think this quote would apply more to casual shmup fans, in this instance.

[TheSoundofRed]

Why do the pocorn enemies take more than one shot to down? Seriously... I don't understand it.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Yeah, I don't know how people can make the argument that this game bridges the gap to attract mainstream gamers when arcade and score attack basically only let you get hit once.

Translation: "we hope the more serious shmup fans are distracted by how pretty the game looks and ignore the design issues the game has".

I think this quote would apply more to casual shmup fans, in this instance.

I think the original quote would apply more if it was true. Shame it isn't.

Why do the pocorn enemies take more than one shot to down? Seriously... I don't understand it.

I really, really don't understand why people are having difficulty working this out.

Destroying enemy craft adds time to the countdown. The entire basis of the game is trying to stop the countdown from timing out. Therefore, it'd be stupidly easy if you could down every single enemy, and so gain an additional three seconds, with one single shot. having the enemies take more than one shot to destroy adds to the stress of the countdown, as failing to take one out and seeing it fly past with half a health bar hammers home the fact that you've just damaged your chances of getting to the next checkpoint.

[evil_ash_xero]

Maybe they could have made the popcorn enemies easier to kill, but you got rewarded less time for them? Sounds like a good solution.

I'm just not find thing this game any fun. I mean, at the end of the day, that's the most important thing.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Yeah, and that's fair enough. It's just frustrating to read posts from other people saying that they dislike the game because X, when X is fundamentally untrue or when they've not thought it through.

The game's far from perfect, as has been pointed out plenty of times already in this thread, but it'd be good if people could complain about the things that matter and that could do with fixing, if they absolutely feel the need to keep going on about them, rather than inventing problems that don't actually exist (such as "arcade and score attack basically only let you get hit once". As far as arcade goes, that's complete bollocks, and as far as score attack goes, um, isn't that the case in almost every single score attack mode ever? As in: usually, it's the end of your run when you get hit, because you die).

The one section that I would like to see addressed in any future patch is the few seconds when you have to hide your craft in the trash floating through the tubes - it doesn't fit in with the rest of the game and it's far too difficult to tell when you're hidden and when you're not. I'm convinced that I've lost lives there even when I have been hidden properly. That bit of the game feels like it's snuck its way into the design from some underdeveloped platform/stealth hybrid.

[TheSoundofRed]

Destroying enemy craft adds time to the countdown. The entire basis of the game is trying to stop the countdown from timing out. Therefore, it'd be stupidly easy if you could down every single enemy, and so gain an additional three seconds, with one single shot. having the enemies take more than one shot to destroy adds to the stress of the countdown, as failing to take one out and seeing it fly past with half a health bar hammers home the fact that you've just damaged your chances of getting to the next checkpoint.

I would be fine with this if the enemies were placed more effectively, less frequent and didn't shoot so many bullets.

This problem becomes more apparent in the later levels where it's less about the enemies in front of you, but more so the ones that passed you and the bullets they're firing. Anyway... I don't think this game is bad for what it is. But I DO think the design was not well thought out and fine tuned before release. Especially in regards to score.

And my earlier post might seem like a quick one-off jab at this game, but I've played a good 10 hours and find this particular design element extremely annoying. Just my opinion, don't have to like it.

ALSO... I specifically said POPCORN enemies... as in small fry, as in not every enemy. To be honest, I'd think it'd make more sense to grant no time bonus for these enemies, but give more bonus for destroying larger enemies. Trade the time bonus for taking less shots. It just seems asinine to me that the small enemies would have a health bar.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would be fine with this if the enemies were placed more effectively, less frequent and didn't shoot so many bullets.

Somehow I don't think you grasped Electro Randy Dupre's point there: You're effectively asking for an arrange mode, which could be nice, but that has to be lower on the list of priorities.

[TheSoundofRed]

I would be fine with this if the enemies were placed more effectively, less frequent and didn't shoot so many bullets.

Somehow I don't think you grasped Electro Randy Dupre's point there: You're effectively asking for an arrange mode, which could be nice, but that has to be lower on the list of priorities.

I'm not "asking" for anything. I'm critiquing the game design, which I find is an activity many people who play games do when deciding whether they like a particular game or not.

I'm stating a grievance with the game design, simple. If you don't agree with my opinions, that is totally fine and is common among individuals with their own thoughts and viewpoints. Also, I can read very well and understood everything Electro Randy Dupre was saying in his post. Are we clear? I'm very confused as to the apparent hostility in your post. This is why I tend to not post in this forum very often.

You point out my lack of reading comprehension, but it seems that you are suffering from a case of it yourself, as you failed to "grasp" my points in my previous posts.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

About patch changes I think changing things like enemy placement and HP is best left alone unless its made into an extra mode. Overwise it runs the risk of pissing off those who have put hours into mastering a route. Although small tweaks like bouncing pwr ups and the random drops wouldnt really affect those ppl imo.

Ive no idea what chhanges the devs are considering making, but if they were to alter the difficulty of the game. A good way would be to just add or subtract seconds from the clock at the start of a stage rather than mess around with the stage. I must stress that I dont mean the games needs those changes, As I havnt played the full game but its a good way of tinkering with the difficulty imo

[TheSoundofRed]

About patch changes I think changing things like enemy placement and HP is best left alone unless its made into an extra mode. Overwise it runs the risk of pissing off those who have put hours into mastering a route. Although small tweaks like bouncing pwr ups and the random drops wouldnt really affect those ppl imo.

Not sure whether your'e referring to my posts directly or more indirectly, but I never asked for a patch. I think the game is fine for what the devs wanted it to be. I've just stated how I don't necessarily enjoy some of the game's mechanics. Just wanted to clarify as I don't want to be perceived as crying for some patch to a game I don't plan on playing all that much... if ever again. So ya...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Nah I wasnt mate, I should have made that clear

[Ed Oscuro]

You point out my lack of reading comprehension, but it seems that you are suffering from a case of it yourself, as you failed to "grasp" my points in my previous posts.

Well, that's a pretty heavy accusation there. I will note, quickly, that I am only responding to a certain point you are making, about wanting an arrange mode, as I think E. Randy Dupre's post responds. So it is obviously beyond my purpose or intention to try or even care to have a thorough critique of your thoughts on video games, which may be interesting, but not relevant here. I don't want to get into a brawl over sentiments, so here are the new questions: Do you understand what an arrange mode is? Do you understand that an arrange mode is not intended to fix a broken game, but rather to broaden the appeal of a game by offering alternate modes? I don't see how I could take license with what you wrote to imagine that you're not asking for an arrange mode, and it also seems very straightforward to see that you are (still) blind to Dupre's point, that game fixes must be given priority.

If the game is built partly around the idea of an unstoppable popcorn barrage, that is (whether you agree or not) a core idea of the game, but it is not the kind of idea that is responsible for a game being good or bad. Powerups that don't bounce on screen edges are not obviously a core idea of the game (though they could be, if it was important to the game design). Somebody might not like racing shmups - but if there are core game problems, it is understandable that you could fix such things without giving up the core game idea. The shooting mode of Kingdom Grandprix (on the Saturn) is not there to fix anything; it is properly called an arrange mode because it fundamentally alters the game by removing the racing mechanic - which some people don't like, but many others do.

I will note that I did not call your idea a silly suggestion, like Special World's complaint that Score Attack only lets you get hit once. Instead, it is an idea that is best left for after they fix more critical things. I am not happy that you don't like the game, but I don't believe it is the developer's responsibility to cater to every player's whim about game design (especially when there is, y'know, a demo).

[TheSoundofRed]

stuff

Let's take this down a notch for a second. I want to make this very clear, so this thread can move on to what it's really for: I do not want the developers to take my suggestions and make an arrange mode.

I'm pretty sure I said it more than once, but this game is (for all intensive purposes) a good game. If you feel like chatting more, shoot me a PM . Sorry for the derail and sorry to Ed Oscuro and E. Randy Dupre for the apparent miscommunication.

[Ed Oscuro]

I appreciate the de-escalation.

I wonder why you suggested something you didn't want implemented, though.

It's not as if any game developers ever read these forums for suggestions when planning their games, after all...the best place to get your suggestions in is in a response thread such as this one. If you want changes (arrange or otherwise), better make the case now.

[Sumez]

Indeed. The clock ruins Arcade mode IMO. It's way too strict.

Beh... I was somehow hoping it would be fun unlike Story Mode Challenging which is already needlessly annoying. I REALLY want to like this game, but I sort of regret buying it already. 1200 msp isn't much, but there are still other XBLA games out there that cost the same or less and are more deserving of my attention.
Maybe I should just try to bash the idea of this being an intense solid shooting game out of my head and learn to enjoy story mode on easy? It's not like I can't enjoy tons of other games that aren't even close to being shoot'em ups. Shouldn't keep me from appreciating this game that it somehow resembles one, I guess.

The one section that I would like to see addressed in any future patch is the few seconds when you have to hide your craft in the trash floating through the tubes - it doesn't fit in with the rest of the game and it's far too difficult to tell when you're hidden and when you're not. I'm convinced that I've lost lives there even when I have been hidden properly. That bit of the game feels like it's snuck its way into the design from some underdeveloped platform/stealth hybrid.

Cripes, I died there so many times before I figured out what to do. Talk about cheap :S

[E. Randy Dupre]

Even knowing what to do, I still struggle with it. It doesn't serve any purpose in the game and while removing it obviously isn't an option, I don't see any good reason why the player interaction couldn't be stripped out for those five seconds in order for it to be turned into a small cut-scene. I'm fed up with seeing my 1CC attempts come to a halt at that same point every time.

[Zaarock]

Indeed. The clock ruins Arcade mode IMO. It's way too strict.

Well, it's still very hard to run out unless you get hit. Some boss projectiles taking away huge amounts of time (and projectiles doing varying amounts of damage overall) is stupid though.

The one section that I would like to see addressed in any future patch is the few seconds when you have to hide your craft in the trash floating through the tubes - it doesn't fit in with the rest of the game and it's far too difficult to tell when you're hidden and when you're not. I'm convinced that I've lost lives there even when I have been hidden properly. That bit of the game feels like it's snuck its way into the design from some underdeveloped platform/stealth hybrid.

Yeah, that part is pointless outside of being a story mode gimmick IMO. Actually you can pretty much only survive one of the paths if you aren't using the speed-up capsule, it being the lowest one. luckily you can see what path the trash goes through by looking at it's size, the smallest is the one you want but the order is random.

[Bizarre Jelly]

I'm loving this game, but if you are still considering patching it, I did find one easy fix. In the Repetitio Est Mater Memoriae achievement description it says one of the requirements is to finish a level with every ship (Any game mode.) I'm pretty sure it meant to say (Arcade or Score Attack only.)

If possible it'd be cool to patch the challenging mode from story into Arcade and Score Attack as well.

And I can definitely see how the random upgrades can get annoying. When playing Score Attack if I don't have a certain amount of upgrades by a certain a point I can pretty much tell I'm not going to be able to finish the level with a good score(or even finish at all.)

I'm loving the game anyway though, but I guess I'm one of those guys that people on this board keep referring to as a "casual" shmup fan.

I'm partially color-blind and I haven't had trouble seeing bullets at all. And I think I only died a few times the first time I encountered the garbage level. I haven't died there a single time since then on following play-throughs.

[Remembrance]

So is there a consensus that Insane is just not worth it? Having tried the demo, it looks like you would have to memorize every enemy in the level just to be able to aim your pea shooter properly.

I would love to see for myself what the average difficulties - Hard in Arcade, or Challenging on Story - are like before committing, since those look like the ones I could actually play... So their decision to only show off the easiest and hardest difficulties is really making this hard.

[Kiken]

Just finished uploading a video of stage 2, Arcade Hard, for those who are interested.

[DJ Incompetent]

So is there a consensus that Insane is just not worth it? Having tried the demo, it looks like you would have to memorize every enemy in the level just to be able to aim your pea shooter properly.

Insane is fine. The only thing you'd need to get a hold of is learning to kill most enemies in the first part of stage 1 to be properly powered up. It is a short section and should be no more irritating than stage 1 scoring in Raiden Fighters Jet.

Your time weapon allows players to have many errors, especially with rollback. It just needs ya getting into the habit of panic bombing again; or panic bombing after taking a hit.

[BAD]

So, in general here, the game falls on the easier side of shooters?

[Special World]

So, in general here, the game falls on the easier side of shooters?

I think it's hard and strict as balls in arcade mode, but story mode is pretty easy.

[Tyjet]

On another note about fire power. I've noticed that when you tap the shot quickly you can shoot more shots than just holding down the button, which means you can take down enemies and bosses faster. It can skew scores a bit in that you can get extra time from speed killing things.

If you watch this run http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYjlcHLBdcI, you can see how this can be exploited by using a turbo/autofire pad. I contacted the devs on this and they said it was a bug and are working on a fix.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

HILARIOUS. Shot power doesn't suck so much when you fire at a decent rate. Did they not put an upper limit on the speed you can tap the shot button? From the looks of it this actually improves the game, well, Insane mode in particular since you can actually reasonably kill popcorn at a distance without worrying quite so much about the suicide bullets.

I thought the whole 'tap rapidly to wear out your button/hurt your fingers/fire faster' thing had gone out of style. Sine Mora is so retro.

[adversity1]

Digital Reality and SANWA team-up exposed.

[Kiken]

On another note about fire power. I've noticed that when you tap the shot quickly you can shoot more shots than just holding down the button, which means you can take down enemies and bosses faster. It can skew scores a bit in that you can get extra time from speed killing things.

If you watch this run http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYjlcHLBdcI, you can see how this can be exploited by using a turbo/autofire pad. I contacted the devs on this and they said it was a bug and are working on a fix.

It's like Darius Gaiden all over again.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Just tried with with my Hori EX2 Turbo, peashooter feels much less peashooter-y. But then the pacing gets fucked up horribly, especially in Story Mode where it's much easier when you're killing the popcorn like, well, popcorn. Yet another thing to add to the list of bizarre design issues this game has.

Sine Mora, why must you look so pretty but have so many gameplay problems?