The Shin Megami Everything Thread

[ryu]

Oh yeah, I forgot that game existed! Is it as boring as the original version or did they make it better?

Not sure yet, but I don't expect Atlus to have done anything to fix the slow pacing of the original. It seems to follow its original very closely while doing everything just a little worse.

[Steven]

Worse? That's... a way of making a game. Oh well. It's still probably better than Persona 5, which is about three times longer than it needed to be.

[ryu]

Take it with a grain of salt. I'm literally not even 3 hours into the game. But yeah I'm not very impressed so far. Combat seems to be flashier though, and I'm not yet sure what I'll think of that when I get there.

[Steven]

Oh, okay. I just remembered that P3 has three types of physical attack and I wonder if they kept all three of them or simplified it. Having three of them might have been a little bit too much. Apparently Atlus thought so too because the three types of physical damage got combined for P4.

[Sima Tuna]

Persona 3 (the original) is halfway between a good game and a bad game. Good because of the ideas it retains from old SMT (main character getting SMT'd by Mudos, physicals using hp, multiple types of attacks, strong focus on dungeon crawling) and bad because of everything Persona (social link faffery and cutscenes that waste your time.)

Each version of Persona 3 has problems. FES doesn't let you control your party (enjoy making sure you never EVER teach Tentarafoo to Mitsuru!) and The Answer is boring as shit. Portable reduced the budget even further from the ps2 version, stripping out the majority of on-foot sections outside of Tartarus. But it sounds like the new remake is kinda ass too. What we needed was a definitive edition HD remaster that merged the best parts of FES and Portable into a single mega-game.

[ryu]

Persona 3 (the original) is halfway between a good game and a bad game. Good because of the ideas it retains from old SMT (main character getting SMT'd by Mudos, physicals using hp, multiple types of attacks, strong focus on dungeon crawling) and bad because of everything Persona (social link faffery and cutscenes that waste your time.)

Each version of Persona 3 has problems. FES doesn't let you control your party (enjoy making sure you never EVER teach Tentarafoo to Mitsuru!) and The Answer is boring as shit. Portable reduced the budget even further from the ps2 version, stripping out the majority of on-foot sections outside of Tartarus. But it sounds like the new remake is kinda ass too. What we needed was a definitive edition HD remaster that merged the best parts of FES and Portable into a single mega-game.

How can you complain about story and social links and then, in the same breath, claim that The Answer was boring? The Answer was as close to a traditional dungeon crawler as it gets for the Persona series. In hindsight I really like that they went out of their way to make a gameplay focused chapter for the game. But I agree Persona 3 is not all that good actually because of all the clutter the social sim aspect brings with it.

Social Links were fine in P3 because they were novel. They were fine in P4 because that game did the best it could to improve on the previous games' slow pacing. P5 as a game was just obsolete then and I couldn't even bring myself to replay it or play P5R.

[Steven]

main character getting SMT'd by Mudos

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that didn't exist until SMTIII. Haven't played NINE or Devil Summoner, though, so maybe I'm wrong. As far as I know the only SMT games where main character death = game over are III, Strange Journey, and V. IV Final has it too, but it's optional there.

stripping out the majority of on-foot sections outside of Tartarus.

That makes the game better because it's way faster, not worse...

[BryanM]

Haha, youse guys. The new Tokimeki Memorial games aren't bad because they're Tokimeki, they're bad because they added 1,000 more battles that don't mean anything, instead of keeping it to under ~20. The immersive sim aspects that kill time are a plus not a minus.

If you really only cared about raw crawlin' and stat uppin', you wouldn't want to play these mainstream 3d games with polygons and silly animations. I mean really, a jRPG where a battle takes longer than 2 seconds to complete? I'm sure you could mash at least 4 inputs in that time, if they let you.

After playing Disgaea 5's postgame, I have a new appreciation for menu games where you can constantly input commands without stopping for even a fraction of a second. It's completely different to something that forces you to sit there for like 1.5 seconds or more, an absolute eternity, and you have to kill all that time by contemplating the universe and whatnot. By that point it's more like gardening or taking a walk around a park than a game that requires any active attention. If you don't like naval gazing, then they're not for you. A game should either take all of your attention, or none of your attention.

.... yes, I'm a fan of speed up buttons. A junkie almost - what would take days can be done in an afternoon. If Super Mario 3 moves too slow, what hope did Dungeon Podger 6,345 ever have..

.... honestly I'm surprised this kind of jRPG game hasn't become standard. Where every command input is mapped to a button instead of a menu. And random battles last for 3 seconds at best if you mash...

(But seriously, the nuPersona damage algorithm that's 90% level based really irritates my robot brain for some reason. They have all these numbers, and this is basically the only one that really matters. If you want a "challenge", try being me. Try beating bosses without leveling up much. You'd have a better time beating Exdeath with a party of lv.1 Berserkers, probably...)

[Steven]

If you really only cared about raw crawlin' and stat uppin', you wouldn't want to play these mainstream 3d games with polygons and silly animations.

So IV is the best one?

Spoiler

Yes, it is

But seriously, the nuPersona damage algorithm that's 90% level based really irritates my robot brain for some reason.

Is it better or worse than demon base level being the only stat in Devil Survivor that actually matters?

[ryu]

.... yes, I'm a fan of speed up buttons. A junkie almost - what would take days can be done in an afternoon.

I used to play Pokemon red and blue on the sped up emulator in Pokemon Stadium. Those were the days!

[BryanM]

Is it better or worse than demon base level being the only stat in Devil Survivor that actually matters?

I moaned out loud at being reminded of the fake level ups just now, but it's been so long that I had to look up how it works. A helpful GameFAQs sperg from 12 years ago comes in to save the day once again. (It's... nice to know the damage you do to Beldr is based only on your level. So it doesn't matter if you're a Str or Mag build - I had thought it was based on Str.)

So that's just the standard SMT thing where demon EXP requirements soar to the roof. The whole "make sure to rotate your Pokemon every couple of hours" thing. (Which of course applies to Nusona MC protagonists just as strongly.)

In the end what matters is what optimal play is. Persona 3 and 4 have you going in as deep as you're allowed, and then you spend hours on one floor fighting the highest level trash you're allowed access to until your level is high enough that you can survive at least 2 hits from the boss. (I've already written essays on the nature of randomly generated dungeons and how the empty hallways are not the way buildings, playgrounds, or obstacle courses are made. My own failed prototypes have taught me thoroughly that small lego sections are not the way to make random dungeons.)

It's repetitive to a degree that's even worse than Dragon Quest 1 was. At least there, you would move your farming spot more often.

I used to play Pokemon red and blue on the sped up emulator in Pokemon Stadium. Those were the days!

Ah, if only such things were an industry standard. In all the feedback tests they did on Bravely Default, the players always said "make it faster!"

Us old people have played a thousand of these games, we don't need them to be in slow motion to understand what's going on. I've noted this is one of the reasons Vampire Survivor type games work: leveling up in the early game is the most fun, so compressing like 10 hours of content into ~ten minutes makes for a better game. Like an arcade game, yanno?

[ryu]

Oh, okay. I just remembered that P3 has three types of physical attack and I wonder if they kept all three of them or simplified it. Having three of them might have been a little bit too much. Apparently Atlus thought so too because the three types of physical damage got combined for P4.

Surprisingly they kept it as it was: there's three types of physical attacks again.

[cj iwakura]

Buffs/debuffs like Tarukaja/Rakunda are super broken in SH. With a fully buff/debuffed attack, the MC can deal thousands in damage, easy.

It's also one of my favorite SMTs. Great balance, amazing atmosphere, immaculate soundtrack, and a fully fleshed out cast, all things SH2 got completely and utterly wrong.
(Except the last one, maybe.)

[Steven]

There's an interview with the Vengeance director in Famitsu where he says that they are fixing the level scaling stupidity, although he doesn't elaborate as to what extent it is being changed. That should fix the game's most annoying mechanical flaw. Too bad there is not much that they can really do to fix the existing map design, which is why I wanted them to make a completely new game. Did it really need to be "open world"? It's not even really open world but instead a small amount of really really big hallways interspersed by two very small and uninteresting hallways, so I'm going to say that it didn't. I don't really care for open world games because having all of that empty nothingness just makes them drag on for eternity and put you to sleep while doing so, but the final area was pretty open and the best one, and the music there was also really cool until it starts to become repetitive and grating

I wonder if they will fix the input lag. On Switch it has very high input lag, although that might just be because the framerate is terrible.

PC requirements are up along with confirmation of Denuvo, which everyone knew was coming. Assuming that the recommended specs are accurate, the Steam Deck should have no problems running the game at max settings... until you get on a plane or some form of public transportation and can't play it because you didn't get permission to do so from Denuvo. At least then everyone around you won't think you are weird when Mara shows up while they are looking at your screen.

[Sima Tuna]

The first zone in SMT V was promising and made me think the rest of the game would be good. But then all the fucking annoying, stupid NPC anime stereotypes showed up to ruin the game.

[Steven]

I'm guessing you must have liked Atsuta, as he only has about 2~3 minutes of screen time over the course of the entire game. He's barely even in the game at all despite being the Chaos hero...

This game's cast is still way better than whatever the hell Toki was supposed to be, however, so I'll take it.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm guessing you must have liked Atsuta, as he only has about 2~3 minutes of screen time over the course of the entire game. He's barely even in the game at all despite being the Chaos hero...

This game's cast is still way better than whatever the hell Toki was supposed to be, however, so I'll take it.

I hated all the stupid humans, and the talking kamen rider armor too. But most of the first area was fighting demons, asking demons where the fuck I was, and exploring. Which was ok. Shades of SMT 3 Nocturne.

[Steven]

At least Tao has a cute voice. That counts for something... right? I only have the Japanese version of the game, which has only Japanese text and voices, so I have no idea how the English version of the game's script and voice acting are. Maybe Tao is terrible in English, but I don't know and I'm never going to find out.

I think the biggest problems with the characters in this game are that either they are stupid and annoying and do ridiculous stuff, like Abdiel and Dazai, or they just don't show up enough to actually do anything (everyone else except possibly that Neutral hero dude who is voiced by Sugita).

The characters are written quite poorly in this game even during the few occasions where they do actually show up, and even then they mostly just speak in exposition the whole time, but then there are things like a certain scene with Dazai that is just silly. Everyone that's seen it knows the one I mean. Yet, despite how strange that scene is, and the general feeling of incompleteness of the game's story as a whole, it's still way better than IV Final's tripe.

I do admittedly kind of like that weird Dazai scene, mostly because it's so ridiculous that it made me laugh both times I saw it. It's a masterpiece of terribleness, certainly unintentionally, and it was probably worth playing the game just to see it.

The director of V and Vengeance was a writer on SMTIII. I wonder which parts of III he wrote.

[ryu]

Think I'm warming up to the P3 remake. The new music is actually really good and the game seems to have a better pacing thanks to faster loading screens and minor QOL changes. They put in the quick travel menu from P4, added a sprint button and hastened up combat. I'm glad Tartarus is still a randomly generated dungeon, and it doesn't look like they added any unnecessary handholding to it either. There's now objects you can destroy with your sword for a chance of obtaining goodies, which I think is a bit superfluous. If there was a chance to trigger an encounter it would be a nice risk-reward mechanic at least. As is it's just stuff for free for those easy dopamine hits every popular game needs today.

Anyways. They left in the objection to let party characters act on their own. Seems like all commands are unlocked from the beginning now and the "aim for down" command was consolidated into "act freely" which is probably not a bad change.

You can change the difficulty mode at any time, except for the hardest one (lunatic) that you can't switch back to from any other mode. I started on that mode but am not sure if I'll stay on it. That one time I screwed up and got into a combat where the enemy got to act first my protagonist was immediately knocked out by his weakness. Stupidly enough the game doesn't actually tell you what the difficulty settings to (unlike in past games). Characters don't seem to get their HP and MP refilled upon level up and I have no idea if that is a general change or because I'm playing on lunatic.

Also, physical skills require HP to be executed.

[Steven]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least semi-interested in the P3 remake. I've never played the original game, but FES mechanically feels like a rough prototype of Persona 4 that is around 70% complete. P3P, while an upgrade over FES in some ways, was weaker in others, although the most major loss, and possibly the only compromise that really mattered, was the anime cutscenes. I wonder if they could have fit compressed versions of the cutscenes and/or made it a two-disc game, but I have a(n unfounded) feeling that UMDs were probably expensive to produce, which is probably why there are very few 2-disc PSP games.

Anyway, the game is still new and pretty expensive because Atlus seems to like to sell the regular non-limited edition versions of their new games for what is essentially $100 here. It also had preorder-exclusive BGM from Persona 4, which I would have loved to have because I hate Persona 3's soundtrack. At least I remember it, though; that's more than I can say for Persona 5's extremely forgettable OST. I can't remember any of the music from that game.

[ryu]

FES mechanically feels like a rough prototype of Persona 4 that is around 70% complete

Because it basically is. They worked out a new concept for the series with Persona 3 and only got to really refine it when developing Persona 4.

although the most major loss, and possibly the only compromise that really mattered, was the anime cutscenes

Yorokobe. They also took some out of the Remake. Most importantly the early scene when Thanatos goes berserk. The ingame cutscene they put in as replacement does not even do half the job compared to the original anime cut scene.

Anyway, the game is still new and pretty expensive because Atlus seems to like to sell the regular non-limited edition versions of their new games for what is essentially $100 here.

Isn't ¥8000 roughly what you can expect to pay for a PS5 game?

It also had preorder-exclusive BGM from Persona 4, which I would have loved to have because I hate Persona 3's soundtrack.

The DLC soundtrack only replaces the combat music, not the entire soundtrack.

[Steven]

FES mechanically feels like a rough prototype of Persona 4 that is around 70% complete

Because it basically is. They worked out a new concept for the series with Persona 3 and only got to really refine it when developing Persona 4.

Yeah, FES is weird. When it released it was probably pretty cool the way it was, at least mechanically (although it really didn't do anything better than how Sakura Taisen did similar things a decade earlier), but comparing it to P3P and 4 makes it look like an unfinished but relatively polished prototype in comparison. P3P is a much better game in terms of playability, which makes it a better game than FES, even if the the balance suffers slightly from being able to control your party and restricting the protagonist to only swords or naginata. Can't do much about the weapon choice, but there isn't much stopping the player from letting the AI control the other party members.

although the most major loss, and possibly the only compromise that really mattered, was the anime cutscenes

Yorokobe. They also took some out of the Remake. Most importantly the early scene when Thanatos goes berserk. The ingame cutscene they put in as replacement does not even do half the job compared to the original anime cut scene.

That was one of the cooler cutscenes in the game! I wouldn't have minded if they simply upscaled the original one, as long as it was done properly. Why must Atlus always do such weird things...?

Anyway, the game is still new and pretty expensive because Atlus seems to like to sell the regular non-limited edition versions of their new games for what is essentially $100 here.

Isn't ¥8000 roughly what you can expect to pay for a PS5 game?

PS5 game pricing is all over the place here. It usually ranges from 5000 to 8000 yen, but some companies like Sega are charging 9600~9800 yen or so for the regular versions of their games. Amazon Japan has PS4, PS5, and usually also Switch games cheaper than anywhere else, usually offering them for a discounted price before launch, so it's definitely the single best way to get PS4 and PS5 games. It's cheaper than digital, it's cheaper than anywhere else, and the shipping is free and gets everything to you on launch day, so you might as well buy from Amazon at this point. Not sure how I feel about that, but...

It's been over a decade since Sega bought Atlus and I'm still not exactly sure what the relationship between Atlus and Sega is other than that Sega (completely?) owns Atlus, but Atlus/Sega still publishes games as Atlus, like Unicorn Overlord. Atlus/Sega wants 8778 yen for that game. Meanwhile, Sega is charging 9800 yen or something for the newest Like a Dragon or Yakuza or whatever the hell it's called now. I don't really get it, but this is how it is, so...

It also had preorder-exclusive BGM from Persona 4, which I would have loved to have because I hate Persona 3's soundtrack.

The DLC soundtrack only replaces the combat music, not the entire soundtrack.

Better than nothing, so I'd theoretically take it if it was still an option.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm not in Japan, but I just recently saw a japanese list price for a game that's coming out (some Idea Factory nep-nep rebundle for modern consoles) that's planned to be 12,000 Yen. Ouch!

[BryanM]

Characters don't seem to get their HP and MP refilled upon level up

There never was level-up healing. The original game did auto-heal upon going to the lobby, which is why it had the fatigue system. In Persona 4 onward, they made your ass pay for it or you left to come another day. Some memories of slowly refilling MP with regeneration in easy battles, there.

That one time I screwed up and got into a combat where the enemy got to act first my protagonist was immediately knocked out by his weakness.

Completely normal. I've started up The Answer and ate shit quite thoroughly one time while warming back up at the start. It's a franchise staple.

Few things really compare to Strange Journey's final boss that can just randomly eat your MC and you lose. Try looking at that through the lens of verisimilitude: here you have this poor guy who's been through hell, all of his comrades are dead. Except one of them became an ancap and another an authcom, which is even worse. His only friends in the world are these alien monster buddies he made along the way, and they range from evil flesh-devouring demons with bulging muscles, wild flesh-devouring animals, or creepy hot women that are way too shiny for their own good. (About 15% of them eat human flesh as well.) Somehow he preserveres through it all. Reaches the final demon god, in a battle to determine the fate of all humanity. He holds on, and it looks like he might win...

And then she eats him. Then the world falls to the ancaps. Everyone else gets eaten, too. Including his imaginary family I just made up. Let's give him a little sister or something to make it extra depressing.

The end.

[Steven]

I'm not in Japan, but I just recently saw a japanese list price for a game that's coming out (some Idea Factory nep-nep rebundle for modern consoles) that's planned to be 12,000 Yen. Ouch!

That's a lot of cash to pay for some old C-tier remakes of D-tier and F-tier games, except for mk2, which might actually be better than its remake. They're also ~500 yen each on Steam in every major Steam sale.

[BulletMagnet]

The end.

"...and wait 'til you hear what happens if you get the BAD ending!"

[Steven]

More Vengeance info is here and the release date is now a week earlier than originally planned. I wonder how much of this was planned for the original V but got cut because it was clearly rushed to market or if this is completely new stuff. I hope they didn't have to rush Vengeance as well and had enough time to do everything they wanted to do this time.

[BryanM]

Wal-Mart Persona 5 coming out in China ("China!") next month. You can gaze at the open beta trailer, if you haven't seen the walmart-ness of it yet.

Spoiler

I assume it'll have to be full of existential dread as they realize they're just knockoffs, existing within a parallel universe that could be 30% more fake than the average SMT universe. Which is always 100% fake and doomed anyway, just like our own is.

... I always kind of wanted a game where they completely lost their minds and only had made-up wannabe dieties, that nobody knows about and therefore aren't commercially viable. Like Aradia. There are a ton of these freaks who never got to go big for long: like Hermanubis. Dragon Ball fusion-dance combination of the gods Hermes and Anubis, made up for the indigenous population when they conquered Egypt... Medjed, the walking bedsheet meme on the internet, etc..

It'd honestly be really really weird if they didn't release this globally, since it'd be leaving so much money on the table. There's almost no competition in the market yet, and it might be very successful.

On the other hand I understand a bit why they don't churn out sequels every three or five years. New things are new, and things get old when repeated a lot, fast. Don't wanna be like the Mega Man franchise, that released 6 games, all the same, in the span of two years...

[Sima Tuna]

Yeah, but mega man games are fun. Mega Mans 4 and 6 didn't get the credit they deserved back in the day. People wrote them off as just another mega mans.

And now Capcom refuse to make new mega mans at all...

[BryanM]

Did you ever give Streetfighter X Mega Man a try? It's absolutely free.

That's really the way to mix up an old formula. Jason X "Jason goes to space" kinda stuff.

... ugh, that was 13 years ago. Feel old now