Sega of America closing its doors who do we blame this time?

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Just watched the Invisible Walls podcast and they mentioned Sega NA going belly up. From now on, they'll only publish downloadable stuff for the NA territory.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episo ... alls/65171

I blame the milkman! The milkman killed Sega!

[Obiwanshinobi]

The combat in Yakuza wasn't great...

[Specineff]

If this is true...

Their whoring out of Sonic The Hedgehog.

The Decline of the arcade market.

Their spreading of their resources across several platforms without concentrating their efforts on the easiest or best-selling ones...

No more Yuji Naka or Yu Suzuki working with them...

Their publishing of titles they didn't develop and had no control over their content...

Mediocre online dedication, not even matching the Dreamcast's service...

No flagship RPG franchise (No. Phantasy Star Whore-line doesn't count)

EA's hogging the NFL license...

They pretty much brought it upon themselves.

[ZOM]

They pretty much brought it upon themselves.

We have a winner.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

They pretty much brought it upon themselves.

We have a winner.

By that he means $ony did it.

[esreveR]

Their whoring out of Sonic The Hedgehog.

This.

[Ed Oscuro]

Their whoring out of Sonic The Hedgehog.

This.

Sonic was such an non-compelling franchise after the Genesis that Sonic itself doesn't matter. I agree about the pattern of the problem, but the problem goes far beyond Sonic.

First, you don't see Sony failing because mascots like Spyro, Crash, Dan Fortesque (the guy from Medievil), and Klonoa not having as big a visible presence as they used to. So right off the bat, having one mascot doesn't matter.

Second, I don't see how not using the license wouldn't have been good. At its core, there really isn't much to the original idea of Sonic - besides technology, like Sonic Xtreme - in terms of gameplay or characters, especially compared to the Nintendo franchises, and I think also that having to follow Nintendo had been limiting for Sega.

I think it's right to say that they "whored out" the franchise as an example of how bad Sega was with their brands, on average. They released a lot of strange stuff that didn't capture the popular attention (Seaman for sure, and I'd argue that even Shenmue is too different from what people expect) and they didn't have a vision for what to do with their other properties (the Rent A Hero series has never even been released in the US; they haven't even managed to release a good quality update to Altered Beast or Golden Axe for chrissakes). Phantasy Star is actually, I'd assume, one of their strongest performers, but even there they've been too careless with the image. I know that every system has its own requirements on, say, art style, but changing the look of things as dramatically from Online to Universe signals to me that there isn't anybody with a long-term view of the franchise.

Compare this to Nintendo, which has managed, especially since the 90s, to "lock down" the art into something familiar (also consistently high-quality even for the experimental stuff, hello Metroid Prime and newer Zeldas) and where they still have some of the original players on board directing things, making sure Mario doesn't wield guns, etc. 'course Konami has had one guy (Iga) supposedly in control of one franchise (Castlevania) and that has been a mess stylistically.

I think that one of the big problems of Sonic has been that it has locked a fix on Sega corporate culture without really being interesting. You don't see any other company that puts all its focus on one character, Munster Chef notwithstanding - I think that one is in danger of backfiring for Microsoft as they're apparently closing down the series. Could you imagine Valve Software without Gordon Freeman? Valve stays relevant in popular culture because they continue to expand the stable of recognizable characters, instead of putting all their money in just one franchise, which is what I think Microsoft's problem with mascots might potentially be bigger than Sega's - Sonic hasn't done shit for Sega in so long that him being their one mascot doesn't matter like MC did for MS, and yet it also does matter not because it is Sonic, but because they been content to pretend Sonic as-is matters and that they don't need to develop other compelling franchises. Sega has a lot of interesting characters, but some are dated and troublesome to work with (I bet Sketch Turner would fit right there), don't have enough cross-culture appeal (as mentioned already; not many people outside Japan even know what the Yakuza are, let alone have any interest playing pachinko or, dare I say it, playing as Asians), don't have a simple pathway to regaining relevance (Ninja Gaiden -> Ninja Gaiden Xbox and beyond was a brilliant stroke; Golden Axe -> could follow the same pattern. Even funnier to talk about Altered Beast as a possible brand to improve; it had nothing going for it story-wise or gameplay-wise, especially not in the current world of complex cutscenes and 3D gameplay. They failed pretty miserably in updating that one, of course.

[Specineff]

My point was that they concentrated their efforts in whoring out the franchise, instead of either trying new ideas or new games. That meant mis-allocation of resources that could be used for something else. On top of the PR damage.

[neorichieb1971]

I dunno. I think perhaps it was their lack of listening. Fans wanted things they failed to deliver on. Shenmue was one. Although I think they had so many I.Ps they could have updated and they just refused to do anything with them. Space Harrier was one franchise that I wish they explored, Shinobi was another they could have played with. If they had put as much effort into a Space Harrier as much as Sony put into Wipeout, or if Shinobi had a budget and team like the God of War team, it would have been fantastic no doubt. Too many subpar productions. Even Capcom produced some hits in that time, a smaller company at that.

The easiest way for them to generate revenue was to put arcade classics on PSN and Xbox live. Did they come? Nope. Sonic was never far away though was it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The last truly kickass game published by Sega I played would be Blood Will Tell. Sega is also responsible for the best ports of old games to ever grace the PS2: Gunstar Heroes Treasure Box, Panzer Dragoon, Virtual-On and then some show quality I demand from the likes of Virtual Console (otherwise they can fuck off). See? That's how you do this if you want people who play on emulators to even consider buying your old game. Sega seem to have some people good at making games still onboard. Shame about the people who are supposed to sell these games.
If Sony managed to pimp Shadow of the Colossus effectively enough to sell over one million copies, then even Yakuza, with its depressingly broken combat and sub-arcade framerate did have a chance to sell well (let alone rough diamond of a game called Blood Will Tell).

(as mentioned already; not many people outside Japan even know what the Yakuza are, let alone have any interest playing pachinko or, dare I say it, playing as Asians)

You sure? Onimusha series did pretty well in the west, despite - or maybe thanks to - unmistakingly Asian appearance of the characters and settings, body language and whatnot, whereas Capcom's own take on the ancient Europe - namely Shadow of Rome - failed to arouse the bloodthirsty masses. Still, kudos to Capcom for sending the crew on a European reconnaissance. I'm not a fan of RE4's graphics (at least on the PS2), but you can tell the castle in that game is designed by people who have seen the real thing with their very own eyes.
Navertheless, I think there's enough japanophiles in western countries who keep buying games such as Way of the Samurai etc., if advertised properly (and don't even get me started on Persona 3).
Come to think of it, Sega published MadWorld - a game looking all sorts of awesome... until it turned out to be running at meagre 30 fps (even less in the crappy PAL conversion). I haven't played it, but if they think 30 fps is enough for a fighting game, I do not intend to support such an attitude. God Hand had good framerate AND superb style to boot.

If they had put as much effort into a Space Harrier as much as Sony put into Wipeout, or if Shinobi had a budget and team like the God of War team, it would have been fantastic no doubt. Too many subpar productions. Even Capcom produced some hits in that time, a smaller company at that.

Even Capcom? EVEN Capcom? On consoles, Capcom fucking ruled the last gen. Still, Sega's Blood Will Tell is up there with Ōkami in my book.

The easiest way for them to generate revenue was to put arcade classics on PSN and Xbox live. Did they come? Nope. Sonic was never far away though was it.

There is Virtual-On Oratorio Tangram. Where the hell is Scud Race (Sega Super GT), though? Some other fun car games? Virtua Fighter?

[Elixir]

I guess that means I won't be ever seeing Yakuza 4 localized. I can't really say I'm surprised, they have been messing up quite a bit lately. The Yakuza 3 localization was pretty bad, the port of Bayonetta for PS3 was awful, etc. I'm glad Resonance of Fate was localized, but that was only published by Sega, and I'm sure someone else would have gladly published it for tri-Ace if given the chance.

Developers will just take their stuff elsewhere.

[Never_Scurred]

They pretty much brought it upon themselves.

We have a winner.

By that he means $ony did it.

Whoa, its 2001 all over again?

[Cuilan]

This should have happened over 15 years ago. Followed by a relaunch of a completely restructured US branch.

[Never_Scurred]

Sega helped give us F-Zero GX, and for that, I will be forever grateful.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Sad to learn that another competitor is closing it's doors for good this time around. It could be the economy and bad business decisions that lead to to this ultimate desicion. You'd think by hiring the right people that the USA branch of SOA would keep things in line and in for the long haul after the demise of the expensive DC hardware/software fiasco. So be it. Those that currently work for SOA will be joining the ranks of the unemployment line really soon. Guess it's time to polish up that resume and see what's out there for work in the ultra competitive video game industry. So yep, just three major key players with Nintendo, SCEA & Microsoft stateside this time around. The current video game console wars still moves forward on.

Guess it's time to relish your DC console and give SOA a final farewell salute. Sayonara. How is Sega of Japan doing financially these days? You might recall the small time Japanese developer Seta shutting it's doors for good recently in this downward economy spiral. Sink or swim.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Specineff]

Don't know. But I hope they are also feeling the crunch, and that they pay for what they did to Tom Kalinske and the Saturn.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sega did.

[Drum]

How is Sega of Japan doing financially these days?

Do you even need to ask?

[neorichieb1971]

I remember eons ago that Sega's next game whatever it was going to be was my next "wow" moment. They scored big in racing with Sega Rally, Daytona, even Rad mobile was exciting. Fighters were amazing. Light gun games were fantastic. But as time crept on the fantasy games like Shinobi, Space harrier etc all disappeared. The magic that made Outrun so wonderful vanished. Games become more sim than anything. They grew an industry that outgrew them. What was once the seed is now the acorn, and then acorn fell from the tree. Thanks for Fzero GX, Rez, Super monkey ball Sega.. They were your last glory moments.

Amen.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Blood Will Tell (2004) is a glorious game if I ever played one. Moreover, I doubt it'd be quite as badass if it had GoW's production values. GoW isn't all that much more than a slick clone of Capcom slashers. While Blood Will Tell starts a bit like another wannabe Devil May Cry, with the end of Chapter 1 it evolves into something between Sonic in 3D and Diablo 2 in feudal Japan. This game in its finest moments is like a dream or a fever. It did everything Shadow of the Colossus promised better than Shadow of the Colossus, before Shadow of the Colossus was even out (and I'm damn sure God Hand owes Blood Will Tell quite a lot). Just make sure to use double tap instead of L3 for dashing (at least one guy killed his joypad with the default control method).
Unfortunately this sort of mind-blowing game design hardly ever gets along with big budget. With big budget come the people who will make sure you'll end up with GoW at the best (more likely Dante's Inferno).
I do like God of War, but it's a "safe", derivative game in many respects. Perhaps David Jaffe himself would agree with me on that.

Eurogamer: Whose original concept was God Of War?

David Jaffe: It was mine. Actually it was Capcom's because I played Onimusha and said 'let's do that with Greek Mythology' [laughs].

And I do respect David Jaffe as a game designer (Twisted Metal: Black alone proves he's good at making games).
Now I'd rather have Sega (and Capcom) making fringe games like Blood Will Tell (the PS2 has quite a few such off-the-wall action adventures) with modest production values but oozing imagination and fun than safe AAA or XXX or whatever sequels running at 30 fps with permanent motion blur.

[Ed Oscuro]

(as mentioned already; not many people outside Japan even know what the Yakuza are, let alone have any interest playing pachinko or, dare I say it, playing as Asians)

You sure? Onimusha series did pretty well in the west, despite - or maybe thanks to - unmistakingly Asian appearance of the characters and settings, body language and whatnot, whereas Capcom's own take on the ancient Europe - namely Shadow of Rome - failed to arouse the bloodthirsty masses.

Aside from the Frenchman in Onimusha 3, I'm going to guess that the reason that series has been popular is mainly because it's about a mythic past that's easier to relate to than the overproduced pop-video aspects I've seen in some trailers for the latest Yakuza episode. I suppose my comment about people not wanting to play as Asians was just an off-the-mark comment resulting from a crotchety moment; that said, I think that I was getting close to the problem in that there is going to be a difference about what is accepted by the audience in terms of the societies portrayed.

I think neorichieb1971 also agrees with me; it's the sense of magic that's disappearing. Most Westerners don't give two shits about gritty or overproduced pop-like Japanese "culture" in gaming, and when that makes it hard to relate to the action and characters it's a stumbling block to translocation. Kind of funny really because I assume lots of people would be interested to know more about, say, the Yakuza as we have a big thing for the Mafia in the West.

In any case, I think the sales numbers speak for themselves; the cause of those numbers is what's in doubt. But certainly Sega hasn't had a success with the Yakuza series like Capcom had with its Onimusha series.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In Japan Yakuza is succesful, but gameplay-wise it's not even a patch on the Onimusha series. Quite simply, if you make a gamer fight a lot in your game, you had better meet two conditions:
- framerate should be higher than 30 fps (really)
- combat system shouldn't suck the dick.
Onimusha happens to meet both and its populist combat system (good looking and effective even when you just mash the button, even better when you fight more technically) was THE selling point of the series. Because making bitches suck it down felt so good.
Yakuza fails to meet both conditions and no amount of production values, not even engaging story can make up for it. If the combat was better, the magic would be there alright. Which is not to say Sega don't employ people who know a thing or two about TPP meele/hand-to-hand combat. Red Entertainmet (Blood Will Tell developer) are the guys.
I've been playing Way of the Samurai lately. One of these loveable PS2 hidden gems (it's got even fantastic vs mode, for some reason absent in the sequels) sports all rough edges in the world, but its combat is pretty neat. There must be many developers in Japan who might not have what it takes to melt current gen platforms and compete with Sony Santa Monica on a technical level, but still can make a decent action game with reasonable budget. That's the way to go rather than pumping money into franchise built upon deeply broken mechanics.

[Ed Oscuro]

In Japan Yakuza is succesful, but gameplay-wise it's not even a patch on the Onimusha series.

So basically Sega isn't even nailing the basics anymore. Wunderbar!

also lolrofl @ "populist combat system"

I'm kinda skeptical about the game's combat system after this, however.

[Specineff]

Fragging Sega forgot they owned the Streets Of Rage franchise. Which gave us the horrendous Fighting Force (Seriously Eidos, WTF. Get back into the kitchen and make me a Legacy of Kain sandwich.), and other clones that couldn't even measure.

They. Forgot. Their. Own. Franchise.

I think I heard Tom Kalinske weeping, btw.

[Drum]

The last truly kickass game published by Sega I played would be Blood Will Tell.

Did you play Bayonetta? I'd say that's better than anything Capcom's put out this gen (of course it's by ex-employees, but hey). I've heard a lot of great things about Valkyria Chronicles, and that's Sega-developed.

Also, because there has to be one guy:

Sega was never really all *that* great as a developer. I mean, they were great, but they were always an almost-but-not-quite-top-tier developer - more like a Konami than a Capcom or a Nintendo. Their very best games only ever seemed to attain 'great, but ...' status. I think it's mainly because they really put out a ton of games and they always had to have an answer to everything, always had to be on the cutting edge of technology and, I guess, fashion. I think it was their strong arcade novelty roots.
They were a really good publisher though, better than anybody else when they were in their prime - much more willing to try something unusual than Capcom or Nintendo.

[Ed Oscuro]

Konami's strongest days were in the late 80s and early 90s, and I'm not saying that with nostalgia goggles since I played nothing of theirs (or, really, anybody's) back then. They clearly were top-tier during the SNES days. Since then, not so much in the popular imagination, with the obvious exception of MGS. Despite my own preference for the zombie-knifing series, nobody put the creative heads behind Resident Evil on the front of Time as the "most influential" personality of the future, as Kojima was. Capcom's real strength seems to lie with nearly matching Konami's revenues (8 to 10 billion yen) with about a tenth of the employees; their efficiency seems much better when comparing the ratio of revenue to net income ($113M for Konami; $86M for Capcom - but Konami's revenues are three times higher than Capcom's) so they're not so musclebound. As much as I feel blase about their new stuff, however, Konami seems to have a more diverse portfolio of corporate-owned franchises than Capcom - something like Winning Eleven, as much as we laugh, is capturing a part of the market that another fighting game series doesn't necessarily.

Capcom certainly did well to come out of nothing in 1984, compared to Konami which was already a longstanding concern, but they aren't actually bigger.

Sega was also at their best in the late 80s and early part of the 90s, no question, back when their simple and good arcade game designs were capturing the market, and also when their unique hardware-intensive 3D games were popular before arcade systems. To say that they weren't really that good is justifiable, but it is looking at it from today's perspective, whereas they had to follow the market. Yes, they could have prepared for the leap to 3D better than with the Sega CD, the 32x, and the Saturn; but that doesn't take anything away from the successes they achieved before that era, just the war chest they built up with that success.

If I was in a position to make some changes at Sega now, I would make sure that the sort of simpler, less capital-intensive games in series like the pre-3D Shinobi titles that are well loved (at least by me) do not disappear from the market. I think the ratio of capital to profits is probably a lot better there than in fancy but ultimately tricky hit-or-miss titles like the newer brand of Shinobi games (which didn't light the world on fire) so it makes no sense to give that market up. The culprit is probably having all their best designers squandering their talents on 3D from the Saturn on out, but with nearly three times as many employees as Capcom (3000+) they should be able to hold down a few segments of the market outside of the race for 3D supremacy, as Capcom has with relaunching classic-format Mega Man games.

I'm really trying to rack my brains to think of anything Capcom put out in the platformer game area that I liked as much as the best from Sega or Konami. Ghosts 'n' ? Shinobi or Castlevania please, just for the balance. That said, like Final Fantasy, Mega Man is one of those series I have blocked wholesale from my consciousness. One of these days I'll tackle it.

I've got Street Fighter 2010 though, is that your idea of a Capcom product that put them ahead of Konami and Sega, Drum?

[Battlesmurf]

I really will be sad to see them go- but I don't feel too bad in a way. The US branch and overseas branches have not communicated well for years. Several titles left overseas really should have come out here (even if they came out in budget packs). Alot of the compilations (Die Hard PS2- tell me that wouldn't have sold at least a few!).

All of that- and "forgetting their franchises". Where. The. Fuck- did you guys leave Streets Of Rage 4? A proper Golden Axe (if made like castle crashers- would have been epic). Space Harriers?

Also- overpricing some of their stuff (which has been mentioned before). I bought alot of their Xbox stuff- but some of it easily could have come with a slightly cheaper starting price. Can't think of specific examples of newer stuff- but I'm sure it's there.

Not to mention- all the Sonic garbage. That leads me to - LISTEN TO THE GODDAMN FANS. too many companies nowadays ignore us. If we don't like what you have, we won't buy it!

http://retro.ign.com/articles/974/974695p7.html

(also- check out the above article. It's dated almost a year ago today haha. Tons of useful information- I.E. how Sega Japan apparently turned down a joint hardware effort with Sony. Kinda funny to think that Sega and Nintendo both passed on that. I'd be surprised in the Dreamcast2/Xbox info isn't in that article (didn't read too far).

(also- big excerpt regarding the Sammy takeover)

::::Negotiations fell through when the partners were unable to find agreeable terms about the merger ratio and executive appointments. Instead, Sammy simply bought out CSK's shares of SEGA, effectively beginning a corporate takeover of the company.....They re-consolidated SEGA's studios into internal divisions without individual brand identities. Good talent got axed in the process, including UGA president Tetsuya Mizuguchi, who would go on to found Q Entertainment. Others would leave of their own accord in the coming years, including Sonic Team leader Yuji Naka, and most recently, long-time AM2 head Yu Suzuki. ::::

[Drum]

@Ed re: platformers: I just meant overall, not shot for shot - though Capcom did have Megaman, Duck Tales, Nemo etc. I'd take the Genesis Sonics over any of them though. Of the three you mentioned, though, I'd rate Super Ghouls n Ghosts over any of the pre-SotN Castlevanias (which I think are pretty tiresome, tbh), and I'd put it up there with Shinobi III. If we're counting Strider, if that counts as being developed by Capcom, that's up there too. I also have a soft spot for Midnight Wanderers.

EDIT: Wonder Boy in Monster Land is unbeatable though!

EDIT 2: Ohshit Demon's Crest - well, I guess that settles it.

EDIt 3: And Bionic Commando. Sega had Castle/World of Illusion and Quackshot tho - those games are all beautiful. Overall they look pretty even in the platformer dept. I never played Capcom's SNES Disney platformers, can't comment on them.

EDIT 4: Willow was pretty cool too.

[nem]

Closing their doors is surely a bit of a stretch. 30+ people were given the boot (as did a similar number here in Europe). I'm sure that still leaves quite a lot of staff. They are shutting down development in the US, which is good, since that has resulted in more or less awful things after the Sega Technical Institute days (well, excluding the Sega Sports line, but they ran that into the ground five years ago).

[ROBOTRON]

could this be the beginning of the videogame crash of 2012? I heard they just buried 1000's of ET cartridges in the Iraqi desert.