PS2 + Mitsubishi MegaView: Best Video Solution?

[MoDaisuke]

Hello Shmups Forum! So I have found a plethora of great information on here about a monitor i will be picking up soon as well as a whole lot of video information on hooking up video game systems to old professional monitors as they are a really great way of playing older standard definition games. My problem is most of these posts are very dated, some from 5+ years ago and i wanted to know if the solution to video output for a Playstation 2 is still the same! Here's a quick rundown:

Monitor is a Mitsubishi AM-2752A ( Alien Soldier made a GREAT post about all the technical specs of the monitor here as well as the solution for hooking up Dreamcast to BNC: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16994 )

Problem is the video does not accept component (my current Playstation 2 Cable) so I'm forced to look into other options. Now in another post ( http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5220 ) matt says that making a VGA - > 5pin BNC adapters is the best bet. Also what about making a SCART to BNC adapter?

I've spent most of my time trying to find a LCD / Plasma and a way to use my standard definition systems to make the picture quality good without a lot of input lag but, So far everywhere I've read says there's gonna be issues somewhere when trying to use SD output on HD screens and have it look really good without input lag. So i didn't know if there was a solution using a XRGB or a HDBoxPro (or otherwise) upconvertor that would have better results than making my own cables. This is going to be exclusively for my PS2 and Dreamcast so if there are any thoughts or answers as to how to get the best quality image i would greatly appreciate it! Thanks!

[antron]

scart to BNC for the PS2 would probably need c-sync stripped from c-video with a circuit.
for the PS2 this would run low-res only.

some PS2 games run in progressive scan (VGA or component) and others can be force to, but the VGA is sync-on-green. Find out if your monitor supports SOG (or just feed your component cables to the RGB BNCs when the PS2 is set to RGB and then put a game in progressive scan).

for the Dreamcast get a VGA box and get a VGA to BNC connector. almost all games will run in VGA.

[MoDaisuke]

The specs on the monitor says it has sync on green, composite or seperate sync, and analog sync for RGB Analog, is that what you mean? The VGA for Dreamcast was what i was going to use. Most of the games I'm playing for PS2 don't support progressive (i think Tekken 5 is the only one) so i don't know if trying to force that would be best. So if i get the SCART i can just get the pinout and make my own SCART -> BNC cables?

[antron]

So if i get the SCART i can just get the pinout and make my own SCART -> BNC cables?

only if it will take c-video (composite) for c-sync. the Dreamcast already has c-sync, unlike the PS2 (c-vid only)

this can strip the sync out for you:
http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=vss100
or make one:
http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/lm1881.htm

[MoDaisuke]

So if the monitor will take composite video for c-sync then making the SCART -> BNC will work.. if not i'll have to either build the LM1881 circuit or buy the VSS 100 to strip the sync out. But either way this way will be the best way to output the PS2 to this monitor? Thanks antron you've been extremely helpful!

[antron]

The specs on the monitor says ... analog sync for RGB Analog

I wonder if this is trying to say that it takes c-video?

if that's the case all you need is a component cable that also has composite and 4 RCA to BNC adapters.

oh, in any case, switching to progressive will automatically work with any cable for you.

the $10 HDTV xploder:
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/Product ... affid=9797
comes with such a cable, and you'll get even more VGA games, like Mushihimesama

added:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... 1&format=2

[MoDaisuke]

the HDTV xploder:
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/Product ... affid=9797
comes with such a cable, and you'll get even more VGA games, like Mushihimesama

O RLY?

Well the problem is that my PS2 is currently modded with a HDD and HDLoader so i can play my backup copies and preserve my minty fresh real copies So i'm not sure if i could use the Xploder + HDLoader or any other PS2 HDD application for that matter.

I'm mostly playing all 2D games, Shmups Mushihimesama, DDPDOJ, Ibara (ugh) Fighters like Street Fighter III and Samurai Shodown, etc etc. So i don't know much about HD Xploder. I did a whole bunch of research into getting a LCD TV to make a Delta 32 style arcade cabinet.. and i was planning on using a XRGB or a HDBoxPro or any one of the HD Upscaling boxes. But then i found out about Input lag and was concerned about that especially since i wanted a screen bigger than 24" so i started to look for older professional monitors instead because i read that since playstation natively puts out in SD the image quality would look much better than anything i could do with trying to use it on a HD screen. IS this true or am i misinformed? This is ultimately going to turn into a home made cab project, so if i could have found a solution with an LCD i would do that as it would be a piece of cake to get a wall mount to TATE games on LCD screens. I did post some of my research here in this thread http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28621 . Also someone on the Neo Geo forums was going to get a mount to TATE his 42" Sony Bravia but i don't know if he ever got around to it.

Ideally, if i could have a great looking clean lag-free image on a LCD from my PS2 i would jump on it but it seems like thats not possible atm. especially when trying to upconvert the SD to HD. But back to this Mitsubishi monitor as i still think that this might be the better option (but if anyone has suggestions saying otherwise PLEASE let me know!) I am under the impression that it does indeed take c-video, so i might just be able to get some adapters and try to make something work that way.

Thanks again antron!

*EDIT* I also found this http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/_SCART+TO+4+B ... TL+SYNC+1M but don't know if this would work or make any difference?

[antron]

no, the xploder doesn't work with hdloader. but get it if you can't find a cable cheaper than $10

make sure you have the 240p patch on mushi and run it tate low res like you plan. I wouldn't bother with that scart cable.

[MoDaisuke]

The forcing the PS2 to output into 240p / 480p is a whole new concept for me, i wasn't really aware that was a possible option (i had seem a similar patch somewhere but it was only for Persona 3 + 4). So hypothetically let me move into another direction completely unrelated to the the Mitsubishi Monitor, i'm changing this thread into a best way to put a Playstation 2 on a HDTV / LCD Monitor.

So let's say i do decide to try my luck with a up converting box (lets say the HDBoxPro) On a LCD Monitor. Would patching the Ps2 to force output into 240/480 p make any difference? is this redundant? Sorry if this is a complete curveball from my original question I'm just trying to figure the video stuff out, and if i can find a solution where i can use the Ps2 on a LCD instead of a CRT i would probably opt for that considering newer systems would look best on the LCD.

Also is there anymore info you can give me on this Force patching the Ps2? i saw this post here http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24583 but im not sure i understand the whole thing? Also the mention of de-interlacing patches is getting me confused as well. I don't know if it would make a difference if i got an HDBoxPro or if this is an alternative to use through component or not.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

With the current setup I have, I use a PS2 with a Japanese RGB cable along with an XRGB-2 piped up to an Sharp 32" LCD HDTV monitor. Looks great for what it does. But it would rather be best to use a professional studio CRT-based RGB monitor with RGB input for best results when using SD-based gaming consoles.

The general rule of thumb goes like this:

SD monitors for SD gaming consoles and HD monitors for the newer HD gaming consoles.

I've tried out the Sega Naomi version of Super Monkey Ball running on a 32" Mitsubishi DiamondScan professional monitor and the graphics were to die for at a past California Extreme show. It was super crystal clear and razor sharp.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[MoDaisuke]

Hey PC Engine Fan X! Thanks for the input I knew that was the right answer but i kind of wished there was a alternative that seemed to work just as well! I guess since i understand how i would hook it up i ultimately just need to try one or the other and judge for myself! Thanks for the help!

[antron]

I don't know about Megaviews, but multi-sync monitors usually don't display low-res as well as a standard low-res monitor. But it's a nice trade-off if you want VGA for the Dreamcast too. It'll probably look better than the LCD HDTV. But if you go with the LCD, use component for the PS2.

[MoDaisuke]

Well the native resolution of the AM-2751A is supposedly 640x480 but some posts ive seen say they are able to get 800x600.. and the output of the PS2 is 640 x 448 (i could be wrong) so that seems like those two would fit well. I also recently saw a Mitsubishi AM-4201R, which might be a little ridiculous. the AM-4201R aka the MegaView Pro 42" ( ) says it puts out at 1280 x 1024. So how does this fit into

I don't know about Megaviews, but multi-sync monitors usually don't display low-res as well as a standard low-res monitor.

I'm not sure the specifics between low-res and standard low res?

Also right now im using a acceptable Sony 24" TV.. and the AM-2751A is a 27" inch screen (so im thinking slightly larger but way better picture in RGB).. what do you think about the 42" ? My first reaction is "this is gonna be a bitch to move into my house" My parents have a older 43" inch Hitachi TV that was looking at the dimensions for reference but that's wide screen.. the AM-4201R has 40" standard 3:4 screen? Is that way overkill for a gaming setup? If i do end up getting a nice working professional monitor i was planning on building a half-cabinet style table like the ones pictured:






Yet if i were to try to get that 42" it would have to be one hell of table to hold that beast up, and probably pretty far away. I'm still on the fence between the LCD and the Monitor for this project but I've received a ton of helpful info and insight from this thread so far so any other ideas or opinions are gladly welcomed!

[antron]

a lot of good PS2 shmups run around 320x240 non-interlaced, which is standard arcade resolution. but to get this you need to be tated (for vertical games). others run in 480i. these two resolutions are really the same. the later just attempts a higher resolution at the cost of flicker (which is really dumb when you are porting an arcade game) that monitor is probably more optimized for 480p

for yoko arcade ports you are better off in high res (but this isn't really possible with PS2 shmups).

[elvis]

these two resolutions are really the same

No, they're not.

320x240 progressive scan shows 240 lines, 60 times per second (each full frame takes 1/60th of a second).

640x480 interlaced (aka 480i) shows 480 lines in two passes - all the odd lines in the first 1/60th of a second, and the even lines in the next 1/60th of a second. Each of these portions of the frame is called a "field". This results in two things:

1) The effective frame rate of 480i is 30 frames per second (60 fields per second, but 2 fields per frame).

2) Due to (1), everything is delayed by 17ms (or 1/60th of a second). It may not seem like a lot, but there are already lag factors involved with any electronic device, and this adds to the pile.

3) The constant change between odd and even fields results in both noticeable flicker, and a difference between the fields (artifacting during high-speed scenes).

Interlacing was a neat trick to get rid of scanlines and simulate a higher resolution image on fixed-frequency cathode ray tubes, particularly aimed at movies and television (where sitting back far away from the screen is common). For gaming, it sucks (particularly sitting close to a screen when playing arcade style shooters or fighting games).

240p is most certainly preferred for arcade ports originating in that resolution. Given the choice, 480p is definitely preferred over and above 480i, as both are filtered when scaling up, however only 480p produces no interlace flicker, and gives you your 17ms back.

[antron]

thanks for the details elvis. I notice you chose the words: "simulate a higher resolution" to describe 480i.

MoDaisuke, essentially 240p and 480i are the resolutions of grandma's TV, and there are never more than 240 lines sent to the screen at a time.

maybe someone can tell us why monitors capable of higher resolutions can't seem to display the low ones as well.

edit:
to clarify, I am referring to CRTs.

[MoDaisuke]

240p is most certainly preferred for arcade ports originating in that resolution. Given the choice, 480p is definitely preferred over and above 480i, as both are filtered when scaling up, however only 480p produces no interlace flicker, and gives you your 17ms back.

essentially 240p and 480i are the resolutions of grandma's TV, and there are never more than 240 lines sent to the screen at a time.

This makes much more sense to me now! I would be interested to know why higher res monitors do have trouble with the low resolutions.

[elvis]

I would be interested to know why higher res monitors do have trouble with the low resolutions.

Newer LCD and Plasma TVs are fixed resolution. As such, any signal that is non-native needs to be scaled to match the panel.

The scaling is the issue. Generally speaking good quality scaling takes time, and if a slow CPU and/or poorly optimised algorithm is doing the scaling, this results in lag. On the flip side, low quality scaling means less lag, but a crappier picture. This is why you'll often see LCD and Plasma TVs include a "game" option for display, which switches from the good quality scaler typically reserved for TV and movies to a lower quality but faster scaler designed for gaming and low lag.

If your TV has a low quality or laggy scaler, you can buy equipment like the HD Box Pro and other devices that are much better at scaling images quickly, feeding a native (or near native) signal back to your TV, letting it do less work to get the picture to the screen.