Bayonetta (PS3/360)

[CMoon]

Skykid> My basic feeling is you are playing it the -wrong- way, but then again, who is to say what the wrong way is. You keep saying that you see how deep the combat can get, but you aren't interested in that, and you're bored of what you're doing. In other words, you don't have an interest in playing the game the way it wants you to play it, and aren't particularly enjoying the results when you ignore the core aspects of the game. Somehow that isn't surprising.

Like Godhand, Bayonetta is ENTIRELY about fighting/scoring. Yes, you have a life bar, but you should be trying to play it without taking any hits at all. You should be trying to platinum levels. And you SHOULD be skipping the cutscenes because goddamnit nobody wants to watch those more than once. I have beaten the game and am frustrated with a few parts, but my general take is that I'm just beginning to understand the combat engine. Are you using the moon bracelet that lets you deflect/counter moves? Are you wearing the gaze of despair to push the rank up? Are you taunting/shooting to keep high combos scores going?

Let me just clear something up - I don't think the combat is poor or anything, I think it's one of the best aspects of the game. As you mentioned, playing it for platinum medals and combo counts is rewarding if you dig that sort of thing. I just don't much appreciate the way the rest of the game is built around the combat. It just seems so thin and so forgettable, it makes the combat feel like grinding almost because that's all there is to do.

This game is 100% about the combat. If you don't like the combat, you don't like the game--period. This is also true of Godhand. Neither makes an excuse for what they are--its just that Godhand is probably a little more hardcore.

[Skykid]

Skykid> My basic feeling is you are playing it the -wrong- way, but then again, who is to say what the wrong way is. You keep saying that you see how deep the combat can get, but you aren't interested in that, and you're bored of what you're doing. In other words, you don't have an interest in playing the game the way it wants you to play it, and aren't particularly enjoying the results when you ignore the core aspects of the game. Somehow that isn't surprising.

Like Godhand, Bayonetta is ENTIRELY about fighting/scoring. Yes, you have a life bar, but you should be trying to play it without taking any hits at all. You should be trying to platinum levels. And you SHOULD be skipping the cutscenes because goddamnit nobody wants to watch those more than once. I have beaten the game and am frustrated with a few parts, but my general take is that I'm just beginning to understand the combat engine. Are you using the moon bracelet that lets you deflect/counter moves? Are you wearing the gaze of despair to push the rank up? Are you taunting/shooting to keep high combos scores going?

Let me just clear something up - I don't think the combat is poor or anything, I think it's one of the best aspects of the game. As you mentioned, playing it for platinum medals and combo counts is rewarding if you dig that sort of thing. I just don't much appreciate the way the rest of the game is built around the combat. It just seems so thin and so forgettable, it makes the combat feel like grinding almost because that's all there is to do.

This game is 100% about the combat. If you don't like the combat, you don't like the game--period. This is also true of Godhand. Neither makes an excuse for what they are--its just that Godhand is probably a little more hardcore.

Hmmm, interested to see what Godhand is like then.

I know exactly why I'm not feeling it, and I knew the reasons are for those you've stated. What I want to make clear is that I don't think the game is a bad game if you're interested enough in delving into the combat (as you guys have) and be rewarded for your efforts - but it's not a perfect scoring game. Not a chance in hell.
Current gen button-tacular, camera whipping combat is limited to a niche group who are hardcore enough to be satisfied with that and nothing else. Give it to some poor shmuck who's read the 10/10 review and has no prior interest or knowledge of such games and chances are he'll be crying into his empty wallet.

It's the fawning praise the game has received that angers me the most. I consider myself to be a hardcore gamer (in the right way) - and in fact we're all on a shmups forum so we're in the same boat - but I want more from my combat centered games than this. Ninja Gaiden is pure combat in a very similar way, but its tied together with an acrobatic character and some superb stage design in which to wield him.
I can play scrolling beat em ups of old until the cows come home, as long as they meet a certain standard in all the important departments. There's more to a scrolling beat-em-up than just the fighting.
Bayonetta's soundtrack is shit. It sounds like elevator music that's completely out of place. It's an important aspect that doesn't really get me pumped at all. Would Streets of Rage have been anything except a boring grind if Yuzo's tunes weren't so damn driving?

No, I haven't delved deep into the combat, but the game isn't inviting me to want to. It's an ugly, expletive filled ball of nonsense from the off, with (as you mentioned) a horrificly executed 'prologue' that does nothing but set itself up as a poorly directed product.

If it hooked me because the combat was simple to understand and grew step by step by introducing new methods (as Ninja Gaiden does) it would probably build my interest. But instead it ploughs headlong into a kind of current-gen gaming jargon of random shopping, collecting (about a billion different items) and TV punching cutscenes.

If, as you said, the game is better with all of the cutscenes skipped, does that not already stop it being a 10/10 game, regardless of all the other difficulties?

in short, a perfect game requires far less effort than Bayonetta.

[Rupert H]

I'm not spamming my site (honest) but I couldn't be bothered to re-type my opinions of the game again.

Here's my take on it Tom:

http://videogamesdaily.com/reviews/2010 ... st-review/

I would add that I also agree it's not a ten, but then I don't think a game should have to appeal to everybody to get a very high score. You wouldn't for example mark Gradius V down just because lots of people were never going to enjoy it, regardless of its quality. The combat is the only reason to play this game and the more I play it, the more layers I find - only just found out that taunting can keep your combo counter going between waves.

To an extent there's a need to have enemy repetition in the genre as you need to learn the enemies to effectively counter them. The flaming versions of enemies are enraged, caused by taunting them, sending the combo multiplier through the roof when combined with the rank-increasing Gaze of Despair. The combat is incredibly complex and rewarding and playing Ninja Gaiden II (a flawed game that I loved) after Bayonetta feels flat and restrictive.

[Lordstar]

I'm not doing very well at it at all. She is a bit too weak right now. But ive seen how to attain a fuck load of halos without cheating so im going to do that. Right now ive been lured away with Dynasty warriors 6. dont judge me!

[Skykid]

I'm not spamming my site (honest) but I couldn't be bothered to re-type my opinions of the game again.

Here's my take on it Tom:

http://videogamesdaily.com/reviews/2010 ... st-review/

I would add that I also agree it's not a ten, but then I don't think a game should have to appeal to everybody to get a very high score. You wouldn't for example mark Gradius V down just because lots of people were never going to enjoy it, regardless of its quality. The combat is the only reason to play this game and the more I play it, the more layers I find - only just found out that taunting can keep your combo counter going between waves.

To an extent there's a need to have enemy repetition in the genre as you need to learn the enemies to effectively counter them. The flaming versions of enemies are enraged, caused by taunting them, sending the combo multiplier through the roof when combined with the rank-increasing Gaze of Despair. The combat is incredibly complex and rewarding and playing Ninja Gaiden II (a flawed game that I loved) after Bayonetta feels flat and restrictive.

Interested to see your review, unfortunately I'll have to wait until I get home to see it as its blocked at work.

(Nearly) everything you say is correct of course. I don't see the Gradius V as a worthy comparison though, as the game is very genre obvious. People who don't like shooters won't like it - you don't need a review to tell you that. People who do like shmups will read the reviews to find out what makes it good/bad and make a purchasing decision around it.
I'm not disputing that to someone who is looking for depth of combat isn't going to be enthralled by what's on offer in Bayonetta. But while there's a ton of stuff to find out (like pressing corresponding button colours during a 'lollipop'cutscene to have it added to your inventory) the game makes practically no effort to ingratiate the player in the secrets or options, nullifying a lot of them. I don't like the fact that someone can button mash with the same couple of weapons right through the game and totally miss the point - if that's a possibility, then the director has made an serious error. There should be basic progression which comes in a digstible format, or else the layman will end up feeling bored and disappointed with their perfect scoring game - as I fear is the case across the globe right now. It's a massive faux par on behalf of games journalism to be so gushing about a game which has pretty limited appeal.

I asked a chap at work who had it and finished it last week. He's played DMC and Ninja Gaiden before but told me over lunch just now what was wrong with the experience for him. In summary his feelings were as follows (some of this stuff I haven't played myself yet btw, so really his words as I remember them):

"It passed the time, but I never really knew what was going on. The fan service was ok, but it all felt very tacked on. Toward the end of the game there's some missile sequence which is abominable, and whenever I tried new things (like turning into a leopard) I couldn't make use of it properly so just fell back on what was already tried and tested. The bosses were repeated far too many times, often in sequence, which felt lazy. I didn't even know what was happening in the plot or the shop, so I didn't end up spending any money until the very end when I couldn't beat the last boss, so went and bought all the life-ups I could to get through it. But that just meant there was no skill involved, which was deflating. I wish I had learned how to get really good at it, but the game never offered me any help or advice on how to do that, or made me feel encouraged to learn."

Which is basically exactly what I think most casual gamers (if you'll excuse the term) will be saying right now. Therein lies the problem.

I'm going to persevere to see what else can be done with it. But if it doesn't blossom for me, I'm peddling that shit like the cheap whore she is.

[Zaarock]

This game is 100% about the combat. If you don't like the combat, you don't like the game--period. This is also true of Godhand. Neither makes an excuse for what they are--its just that Godhand is probably a little more hardcore.

Guess I'm pretty weird then, I've watched through all the cutscenes three times skipping most of them now when I'm getting platinum trophies though. I still like watching a lot of the action cutscenes, they are well made IMO. Like, the cutscenes at chapter 4, 7( ) and 12, 14, epilogue etc.

I like most of the soundtrack, I found the last few boss themes especially good. The theme song sort of grew on me after the first playthrough. The game does sort of only vary between four songs for your normal battles which is sort of disappointing. I like the enemy design, reminds me of Okami for some reason.. They all look pretty cool and I like the idea of the angels being some kind of alien creatures instead of just humanoids. Also fire wheels from okami but those can go to hell, annoying to combo Bosses look excellent too ofc.

[Lawfer]

Giant Enemy Crab.

[Skykid]

Guess I'm pretty weird then, I've watched through all the cutscenes three times skipping most of them now when I'm getting platinum trophies though. I still like watching a lot of the action cutscenes, they are well made IMO. Like, the cutscenes at chapter 4, 7( ) and 12, 14, epilogue etc.

I like most of the soundtrack... The theme song sort of grew on me after the first playthrough.

You are a special guy indeed.
I'm noticing a trend where everything starts getting better after the first playthrough, is this the common sign of a masterpiece then?

[Taylor]

Nobody is saying it "starts getting better" because that implies it’s not super awesome to begin with. But the game certainly has a lot of long lasting appeal through extra difficulties, unlocked weapons, and a complete inventory of accessories because it adds extra depth to the combat system. The combat system being the core of the game, of course, opposed to the intentionally stupid storyline and characters you never see past the intro.

I don’t see why a game needs to appeal to the layman to get good scores when the layman is clearly not the target audience. Should we give niche genres bad scores because the average twitchy first person shooter gamer doesn’t like them? Should only those games get good scores because they appeal to a broader market? That would be ridiculous. And despite that Bayonetta does the commendable by including two whole difficulty modes for casual players (whereas DMC3 and God Hand would leave them stranded at the first boss)... But apparently that is a bad thing too.

[Skykid]

Nobody is saying it "starts getting better" because that implies it’s not super awesome to begin with. But the game certainly has a lot of long lasting appeal through extra difficulties, unlocked weapons, and a complete inventory of accessories because it adds extra depth to the combat system. The combat system being the core of the game, of course, opposed to the intentionally stupid storyline and characters you never see past the intro.

I don’t see why a game needs to appeal to the layman to get good scores when the layman is clearly not the target audience. Should we give niche genres bad scores because the average twitchy first person shooter gamer doesn’t like them? Should only those games get good scores because they appeal to a broader market? That would be ridiculous. And despite that Bayonetta does the commendable by including two whole difficulty modes for casual players (whereas DMC3 and God Hand would leave them stranded at the first boss)... But apparently that is a bad thing too.

Will re-iterate just one more time: don't think it doesn't deserve its praise, just don't think it deserves perfect score praise. And yes, I firmly believe a perfect scoring game should be incredibly accessible - if not to all (as that's rather difficult) then to most who give it a good chance. There is a huge amount of Bayonetta that will totally evade most of the gaming demographic, and to them it will be a shell of the game they were promised by stupid journalism.

Not cool.

EDIT: @ Rupert - Read your review mate. Right, you ready?
No. Nothing in common with Mario Galaxy. Even if you do run up walls. In Bayonetta you can't quite control the action when you go all anti-grav and the camera is stupid. If this is an innovative idea, then MG would be the absolute refinement of such an invention - but it came out first.
That's a small point though, and I can't be entirely sure of how you meant it - so moving swiftly on. You state in the beginning it's not a game for everyone - good way to start and very true, not sure how this was fleshed out later on though. If I read the review and saw a fat '9' at the end of it, I'd be unaware of any of the points that would place me in the 'not for everyone' category. It sounds like a blast regardless of your sensibilities.
I also get the impression from the review that the very Japanese excesses are endearing and welcome? I can't see this at all. The utter stupidity, jarring, puerile language, baseless violence and useless scripting don't remind me of Japanese gaming charm as I've known it. It's like it's written for idiots and directed for people who get off on all the embarrassing stuff modern Japan turns out that reeks of tastelessness. It seems like a game for people who like Ryuhei Kitamura, cosplay, Visual Kei and bad, substance-less Anime. Maybe I'm just too old for that shit, not sure.
No mention of the sleep inducing cutscenes (people who buy it have to suffer those when they're trying to discern some kind of a plot, right?) or the god-awful repeating soundtrack? Not sure I could laugh any of it off with "ah those wacky Japanese eh? They're sooo weird," - so can we really expect everyone else to?

In fact, the only reason to recommend the game would be on its combat alone, because if you're a fighting masochist who gets a buzz out of deep dirty combat, you're gonna' fucking love it!
You're going to get hours and hours of fun learning the complexities, maximising weapon combinations, shopping in that annoying shop for new gear and tearing the enemies a new one. In fact, if you can get a buzz from that and that alone, then it's a nine out of ten, definitely, because it's the best at what it does! An orgasmic, excessive battling experience. Say no more.

However...

Everyone else, you'll probably hate it, but you might come around (stranger things have happened) so we'll say it's a seven. A calculated risk if you like.
Now you go figure out what to do with the £45 quid burning a hole in your pocket.

How's that sound Rupe?

[Rupert H]

I don't see the Gradius V as a worthy comparison though, as the game is very genre obvious.

Well for the record, I still think that Gradius V analogy stands - this is a genre game. I know people who have absolutely no intention of playing the game since they believe the genre Devil May Cry invented to be inherently backwards and unfulfilling, therefore they pass Bayonetta by with the same ignorance they do Gradius V. Perhaps ignorance is too strong a word; I guess if somebody told me that the next StarCraft game was a 10/10, it wouldn't make me want to play it because I'm simply not interested in the genre.

No. Nothing in common with Mario Galaxy

The Mario Galaxy parallels run deeper than you think. The willingness to embrace 3D environments so fully and play around with gravity was one aspect. More significantly for me however was the similarity in evolution (Mario 64 to Mario Galaxy and Devil May Cry to Bayonetta). Neither Bayonetta nor Mario Galaxy are particularly innovative, they merely take everything that has been learnt since their respective games defined a genre and create the definitive evolution. Mario Galaxy’s different planets take the games rules and bend them, much like Bayonetta’s accessories experiment with the combat engine.

Funnily enough, I have spoken to people with the same aesthetic aversion to Mario Galaxy as you have to Bayonetta. People that refuse to see the genius of Galaxy’s ideas because the game is “childish” with a story that wouldn’t entertain anyone beyond the age of puberty. For what it's worth, I find Bayonetta's knowing campness to be a lot easier to stomach than Ninja Gaiden or God of War's brooding tone that shows all the maturity of a sulking teenager.

If I read the review and saw a fat '9' at the end of it, I'd be unaware of any of the points that would place me in the 'not for everyone' category

You’re kidding, right? Knowing your distain for ludicrously overplayed Japanese eccentricity, I couldn’t have written this review any more for you if I’d tried. “every cliché, reference, homage in the book,” “painfully camp dialogue,” “Bayonetta is a bawdy, puerile, otaku-appeasing work of gluttony”. If these didn’t set alarm bells ringing that you might be one of the people this game wasn’t for, I honestly don’t know what would. I spent a seriously unbalanced amount of time talking about how excessive Bayonetta was in this regard.

just don't think it deserves perfect score praise

If it’s mainly the disappointment of not agreeing with Famitsu/Edge scores, I think you need to get a grip. Famitsu scores have been a joke since Ridge Racer Revolution (as complete an antithesis as you could hope to find) got 39/40, not to mention the “perfect” Nintendogs, Soul Calibur and MGS4. Edge have been giving out wacky scores for nearly two decades.

so we'll say it's a seven

I can see that you've played about 25% of the game so far so let's save the scores for when you've finished it.

[CMoon]

Oh man, like anything more needs to be said here, but I've got some 10% beer coursing in my veins so fukkkkit!

Bayonetta definitely isn't a 10/10. That's BS, just as pretending this will appeal to mainstream gaymers. If you are playing to see end credits, don't even bother to buy this game. Same thing for story, cut scenes (apologies to Zaarock). The game manages its greatness through absurdly deep combat--I'm starting to think deeper than most fighters. When you see a dozen different people finding a dozen different ways (weapon combinations, use of charge attacks, accessories, weapon set switches, etc.) to play this game, you start getting all excited about it. Bayonetta is the first game since Godhand that has given me this rush of both almost unlimited potential and riding the razor's edged between absolute conquest and getting hosed by a bunch of baddies.

Ideally, I'd love to see a Bayonetta/Godhand hybrid using the former's witch time & juggle system and Godhand's build-your-own combo system with less emphasis on wicked weaves.

I think the problem with game review scores is they imply the lots of people will like the game. Can't a 10/10 game be a game that only a small niche will enjoy? DDP-DOJ may be a 10/10 game, but how many people are going to appreciate that it is a 10/10 game?

[Skykid]

Well for the record, I still think that Gradius V analogy stands - this is a genre game. I know people who have absolutely no intention of playing the game since they believe the genre Devil May Cry invented to be inherently backwards and unfulfilling, therefore they pass Bayonetta by with the same ignorance they do Gradius V. Perhaps ignorance is too strong a word; I guess if somebody told me that the next StarCraft game was a 10/10, it wouldn't make me want to play it because I'm simply not interested in the genre.

I see what you're saying. Perhaps Gradius V isn't the best example though.

The Mario Galaxy parallels run deeper than you think. The willingness to embrace 3D environments so fully and play around with gravity was one aspect.

I really can't see it. I'm not getting anything from the gravity bending in Bayonetta. Her movement is just the same as normal, but the perspective switches slightly. It has no significant impact on the gameplay at all. And all those breaking, floating rocks you have to jump onto are superficial, so don't really qualify for me.

More significantly for me however was the similarity in evolution (Mario 64 to Mario Galaxy and Devil May Cry to Bayonetta). Neither Bayonetta nor Mario Galaxy are particularly innovative, they merely take everything that has been learnt since their respective games defined a genre and create the definitive evolution. Mario Galaxy’s different planets take the games rules and bend them, much like Bayonetta’s accessories experiment with the combat engine.

...I dunno man. You're looking into this real deep!
The evolution of these two games aren't really dissimilar from most modern genres. They've all evolved from blueprints of the past to get where they are today, and I can't see the evolutions of these two particular titles being any more linked than any others.
But I do think Mario Galaxy is actually extremely innovative, despite its platform roots, because it really does flip the platforming experience 360 degrees and finds ways to make it work, rather than just being a gimmick. Bayonetta as the evolution of DMC combat, I would warrant, is certainly the least innovative of the two.

Funnily enough, I have spoken to people with the same aesthetic aversion to Mario Galaxy as you have to Bayonetta. People that refuse to see the genius of Galaxy’s ideas because the game is “childish” with a story that wouldn’t entertain anyone beyond the age of puberty.

I hear it. I deal with Nintendo hating people everyday. But they're like newborn babies to gaming, so I forgive them. I do find MG aesthetically pleasing, but that's because it's a beautiful Mario game. I don't like Bayonetta's art direction much because it's really quite ugly - but that's not put me off of the game entirely.

For what it's worth, I find Bayonetta's knowing campness to be a lot easier to stomach than Ninja Gaiden or God of War's brooding tone that shows all the maturity of a sulking teenager.

Mmm. A matter of taste I suppose. I could deal with NG's ninja roots and bloody combat a lot more comfortably, and it's Japanese-ness didn't swamp the experience to the point of overload.

You’re kidding, right? Knowing your distain for ludicrously overplayed Japanese eccentricity, I couldn’t have written this review any more for you if I’d tried. “every cliché, reference, homage in the book,” “painfully camp dialogue,” “Bayonetta is a bawdy, puerile, otaku-appeasing work of gluttony”. If these didn’t set alarm bells ringing that you might be one of the people this game wasn’t for, I honestly don’t know what would. I spent a seriously unbalanced amount of time talking about how excessive Bayonetta was in this regard.

You did, I'm sorry dude, you're right. I only read it once but somehow I didn't see those comments as any kind of negative. I'd have probably gone for the throat a bit more when it came to those aspects (as I've done in this thread already) but you did indeed cover them.
Dunno though, I never thought I would have an aversion to otaku-appeasing works of gluttony, considering that I must be something of an otaku myself. But I find Bayonetta to be an incredibly western-influenced otaku vision, not, for example, the same as Death Smiles loli-otaku hook, or, going back real far for something zany, PuLiRula. It's like it's ticking the boxes for Japan-loving gaijin geeks, rather than allowing itself to wallow naturally in its own heritage. It's a recurring trend with JP current gen development these days, with stuff like Bullet Witch just leaving a sour taste.

If it’s mainly the disappointment of not agreeing with Famitsu/Edge scores, I think you need to get a grip. Famitsu scores have been a joke since Ridge Racer Revolution (as complete an antithesis as you could hope to find) got 39/40, not to mention the “perfect” Nintendogs, Soul Calibur and MGS4. Edge have been giving out wacky scores for nearly two decades.

Well aware of the infallibility of said publications. It's the recurring industry gushing over every hyped up release and the spilling of perfect scores that's starting to tick me off. It's deceptive. These Journalists have no balls man. These are peoples bank accounts we're talking about, you can't just carry on like every big release (Killzone 2 for instance) is a gift from god.
I used to only see games of the highest caliber appear once every three to four years which is weird, because looking back it seems as though the quality of titles was consistently higher and more inventive than they are today.

so we'll say it's a seven

I can see that you've played about 25% of the game so far so let's save the scores for when you've finished it.

Well I'm on chapter seven now. Just did six tonight.
Rodin has made me weapons from a few LP's, but I don't have the cash to buy them, which is kind of frustrating as I haven't actually bought that much. One of them looked like Katana swords but they've now gone missing from the shop inventory...?

It still feels like a grind and when the stages show some flair (like the wind dragon things trying to knock you off of the spiral) it really fails to do anything with it. Bayonetta's jump movement works for combat, making anything 'stage related' feel clumsy and a bit awkward to me.
I also got the leopard dash thing my workmate was talking about. It's okay.

I honestly don't know if I will finish the game, but I'll try. It is sort of boring for me though so by ploughing on I'm not sure who I'd doing any favours for. It might be an 8, who knows?

[CMoon]

Well I'm on chapter seven now. Just did six tonight.
Rodin has made me weapons from a few LP's, but I don't have the cash to buy them, which is kind of frustrating as I haven't actually bought that much. One of them looked like Katana swords but they've now gone missing from the shop inventory...?

*sighs*

You're gonna get raked over this one. If you unlocked the sword, it's already in your own inventory. If you don't have enough halos to buy some of the accessories / life-ups, you aren't using the combo system properly (taunts+guns.)

The thing is, from what you've said in your posts, your really open to being accused of not actually understanding how the game works. Again, like playing DDP without getting that there are hidden bees or that holding down the shot button versus tapping changes speed and firing rate. I hope I've completely misunderstood your posts, but some of these statements basically come off like your missing huge aspects of the gameplay.

Seriously suggest going back and getting platinums on the first couple levels before moving ahead. Buy the moon bracelet and practice. Buy air evade and stiletto. Start practicing on the alfheims and get the core game mechanics down before advancing in the game. If you've done all that and still hate it, don't even bother going further in the game.

[Skykid]

Well I'm on chapter seven now. Just did six tonight.
Rodin has made me weapons from a few LP's, but I don't have the cash to buy them, which is kind of frustrating as I haven't actually bought that much. One of them looked like Katana swords but they've now gone missing from the shop inventory...?

*sighs*

You're gonna get raked over this one. If you unlocked the sword, it's already in your own inventory. If you don't have enough halos to buy some of the accessories / life-ups, you aren't using the combo system properly (taunts+guns.)

The thing is, from what you've said in your posts, your really open to being accused of not actually understanding how the game works. Again, like playing DDP without getting that there are hidden bees or that holding down the shot button versus tapping changes speed and firing rate. I hope I've completely misunderstood your posts, but some of these statements basically come off like your missing huge aspects of the gameplay.

Seriously suggest going back and getting platinums on the first couple levels before moving ahead. Buy the moon bracelet and practice. Buy air evade and stiletto. Start practicing on the alfheims and get the core game mechanics down before advancing in the game. If you've done all that and still hate it, don't even bother going further in the game.

Ha ha, there's no disagreement between us, I know that I'm not making full use of the combat beyond a couple of bracelets and the air evade (I have those) but I don't like the way the game leaves you high and dry after the basic tutorial in the prologue. There's not enough information to tell you what's what, and I sat through all of those darn cutscenes.
Should've gone for the instruction manual.

Anyway, lets draw a close to this. As I said several times, the game isn't what I'd consider a masterpiece but I am willing to appreciate that for combat nuts it's the holy grail.
...It's just not for everyone.

EDIT: Cmoon, I'm going to take your advice. I'm sitting at work twidlling my thumbs and thinking that I want the same experience from Bayonetta you guys are having. I don't appreciate being made to work so hard to discover the nuances of the game, I think they should be presented and tutored and drip-fed clearly so that the complexities are not so complex. However, I'm going to go back to the beginning, wipe my save file, skip all the cutscenes and delve as deep as possible into the combat. I'm not going to move on until I've trawled all of the inventories and tried all the combinations and practiced all new special attacks, bracelets and weapons until they roll off the thumbs.
Hopefully this will change the game for me.

[Lordstar]

all these fucking essays are ruined this thread for me. We can all agree its a great game right?

I cant pass comment either way ive not put any time in to it. But i know if i want to get the most out of it im going to have to and I will enjoy doing so just from the 'touch play' that ive had

http://profile.mygamercard.net/Karoshidrop my gamer score on the game speaks volumes X-D

[CMoon]

EDIT: Cmoon, I'm going to take your advice. I'm sitting at work twidlling my thumbs and thinking that I want the same experience from Bayonetta you guys are having. I don't appreciate being made to work to discover the nuances of the game, I think they should be presented and tutored clearly and leave the rest to the players skill - however, I'm going to go back to the beginning, wipe my save file, skip all the cutscenes and delve as deep as possible into the combat. I'm not going to move on until I've trawled all of the inventories and tried all the combinations and practiced all new special attacks, bracelets and weapons until they roll off the thumbs.
Hopefully this will change the game for me.

I wouldn't wipe your save files as you can redo any of the levels using all the new moves/accessories you've bought. I don't know any reason to go back to zero.

You and I may agree on one other thing that may not have been explicitly stated here: Personally I think the game needs more mundane practice against standard enemies. Instead, the game moves very quickly toward presenting you with every nuance instead of actually building up your skill at the core gameplay.

IMO the game needs to build a little slower giving you time to actually learn how to deal with a lot of the enemy patterns, but then I realized you weren't supposed to rush through the game but were instead supposed to be replaying levels until you could do them without getting hit. Playing the Alfheims helps tremendously since you can redo them infinitely and they tend to focus more on core skills.

Anyway, good luck, hope you find yourself enjoying the gameplay more with a different approach.

[Skykid]

all these fucking essays are ruined this thread for me.

Why?

You and I may agree on one other thing that may not have been explicitly stated here: Personally I think the game needs more mundane practice against standard enemies. Instead, the game moves very quickly toward presenting you with every nuance instead of actually building up your skill at the core gameplay.

IMO the game needs to build a little slower giving you time to actually learn how to deal with a lot of the enemy patterns, but then I realized you weren't supposed to rush through the game but were instead supposed to be replaying levels until you could do them without getting hit.

Bam! That's it. Thankyou cmoon!
This is all I was trying to get at. Forget my disdain for the aesthetic and aural (that's a personal thing.) The 'essays' of the last few pages were criticisms directed at the perfect scores which encourage people to buy it, and then hopelessly mis-understand it because the game doesn't offer a clear enough development and tutorial of what the combat does, how it works or where it goes.
For me that can't be a perfect score because it's an error of judgement on the part of the director. For all you lucky God Hand aficianados it's a blessing from heaven, and you know where to begin and how to make swift progress - you don't have to think twice. But try to imagine all the Call of Duty boys: they'll be utterly screwed, disappointed and confused, and ultimately miss out on what should be a stellar experience.

Very glad we wrestled some kind of an agreement out of this.

[Zaarock]

IMO the game needs to build a little slower giving you time to actually learn how to deal with a lot of the enemy patterns, but then I realized you weren't supposed to rush through the game but were instead supposed to be replaying levels until you could do them without getting hit. Playing the Alfheims helps tremendously since you can redo them infinitely and they tend to focus more on core skills.

Yeah, I guess. I like how you can practice in the loading screens (press select and it will stay there until you want to stop) All the main weapons have movelists in the pause menu and the techniques can also be viewed again there(and you can actually turn them off manually) so I think viewing the moves is made pretty accessible at least.

How far have you gotten in Lost Chapter? I the first two verses a lot of fun with the loads of enemies to beat up, etc. died on last fight in verse 3 last time.

Skykid: in case you didnt know, RT+back skips cutscenes

[Lordstar]

BECAUSE!

[Skykid]

Skykid: in case you didnt know, RT+back skips cutscenes

Tip of the year Zaarock!

[Zaarock]

Yeah, just watch out as you might get hit by something right after the cutscenes (game has too many of these situations) Also, you cant skip any of the cutscenes with the button pressing sequences.

[Skykid]

Yeah, just watch out as you might get hit by something right after the cutscenes (game has too many of these situations) Also, you cant skip any of the cutscenes with the button pressing sequences.

Yeah, I kind of figured that. In addition to the above discussion about lack of tutorial, did you guys at any point remember being told that there is a timing to the QTE presses?
I know it's got a circular indicator that needs to be pressed when it reaches the symbol, but it took me a few deaths to realise that was the way to trigger them.

The chap at work said he didn't even know until I told him yesterday, and went through the whole thing hammering the button and thought it was just totally hit and miss.

[Zaarock]

Yeah, I kind of figured that. In addition to the above discussion about lack of tutorial, did you guys at any point remember being told that there is a timing to the QTE presses?
I know it's got a circular indicator that needs to be pressed when it reaches the symbol, but it took me a few deaths to realise that was the way to trigger them.

I thought it was made very obvious with the symbol forming and then button flashing, disappearing once pushed. Why would you mash a button before knowing what you need to press In some games pushing the wrong button or pushing at the wrong time in QTEs makes you die, at least this doesnt do that.

[ASK]

In some games pushing the wrong button or pushing at the wrong time in QTEs makes you die, at least this doesnt do that.

It does for some of them. Can't remember the exact chapter, but one of them is where you run up a clock tower and it falls over into a river of lava.

[Taylor]

To be honest there aren’t that many fatal QTE's in the game, but most of them are at the start. I only got annoyed by the ones that told you to press A to jump that were failed by pressing A to jump pre-emptively, missing the rigid bespoke animation and falling off crap. But only the toppling bridge in chapter 3 is fatal of those AFAIK.

I firmly believe a perfect scoring game should be incredibly accessible - if not to all (as that's rather difficult) then to most who give it a good chance. There is a huge amount of Bayonetta that will totally evade most of the gaming demographic, and to them it will be a shell of the game they were promised by stupid journalism.

Well, I believe that, if the games target audience is not Joe Average, it doesn't need to encompass them. Should the film Primer not get 5 stars because it's too esoteric and there are not enough gun fights? If a review is competently written or slightly choosey in its screenshots it should be clear to players who don’t like outlandish, action hack and slash that they should stay away regardless. Though, it is way more accessible than any other game of its type I've played.

I don't like the way the game leaves you high and dry after the basic tutorial in the prologue.

Heh, you are going to hate God Hand...

[Skykid]

To be honest there aren’t that many fatal QTE's in the game, but most of them are at the start. I only got annoyed by the ones that told you to press A to jump that were failed by pressing A to jump pre-emptively, missing the rigid bespoke animation and falling off crap. But only the toppling bridge in chapter 3 is fatal of those AFAIK.

I firmly believe a perfect scoring game should be incredibly accessible - if not to all (as that's rather difficult) then to most who give it a good chance. There is a huge amount of Bayonetta that will totally evade most of the gaming demographic, and to them it will be a shell of the game they were promised by stupid journalism.

Well, I believe that, if the games target audience is not Joe Average, it doesn't need to encompass them. Should the film Primer not get 5 stars because it's too esoteric and there are not enough gun fights? If a review is competently written or slightly choosey in its screenshots it should be clear to players who don’t like outlandish, action hack and slash that they should stay away regardless. Though, it is way more accessible than any other game of its type I've played.

I don't like the way the game leaves you high and dry after the basic tutorial in the prologue.

Heh, you are going to hate God Hand...

That's a shame
But if I can learn Bayonetta in time I might get on with it in the end.

Well, I believe that, if the games target audience is not Joe Average, it doesn't need to encompass them.

Let's take this entirely from the perspective of commercial games journalism and the audience it caters to, not from the perspective of hardcore gamers with a thorough appreciation of niche genres.

While I can see your point entirely, I'm talking about a public who rely on commercial games journalism to make purchasing decisions, who will undoubtedly feel betrayed by Bayonetta because they don't understand it at all.
For that general public, perfect scoring games need to be much more accessible.

If Bayonetta scored a ten on 'combatgamesreviews.com' or 'hardcoregamingblitz.co.uk', and an 8 out of ten on IGN and Eurogamer, that would make a lot more sense in my mind.

[CMoon]

Regarding practice. Part of the reason I think the game needs more build up is that the practice mode is not against an enemy, hence you can't practice juggle combos, blocking and expert dodging. Like shmups, you really need to practice against waves of enemies with different overlapping patterns. If you don't buy ALL the moves (like I did) you can 'try out) a move and practice against an enemy indefinitely.

And no, I haven't unlocked lost chapter yet (or at least, I don't think I have)...what are the requirements for it?

Heh, you are going to hate God Hand...

I was thinking this at first too, but then remembered that God Hand is a very differently paced game. You can spazz out on the buttons in Bayonetta and you WILL get a combo, whether it is the one you wanted or not. This does not in fact work with God Hand, and may ironically be a more welcoming game to certain players, even though it is a MUCH HARDER game. Unlike Bayonetta, you don't really get confused about what you are doing in God Hand--certain buttons do certain things, period. I do agree with your sentiment though that God Hand teaches you virtually nothing about the game engine. Be prepared to read FAQs, forums, or watch videos as a lot of the game mechanics that are so essential to beating the game (like dodge-cancelling) aren't actually documented.

Regarding IGN's 10/10 review: They're just trying to make up for their 3/10 review of God Hand.

[Skykid]

Regarding IGN's 10/10 review: They're just trying to make up for their 3/10 review of God Hand.

That's exactly what I thought.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

The game manages its greatness through absurdly deep combat--I'm starting to think deeper than most fighters. When you see a dozen different people finding a dozen different ways (weapon combinations, use of charge attacks, accessories, weapon set switches, etc.) to play this game, you start getting all excited about it.

Though amazingly fun and suited to personalized styles of play, I don't think the combat is quite as deep as people make it out to be. Once you find a particular godlike combo you can approach the majority of battles by dodging and then using said combo over and over again. By definition, almost any recent fighting game is deeper because of the necessity to use a more diverse skill set in order to beat human opponents. Bayonetta has a ton of ridiculous offensive options, but once you've chosen your dial-a-combo the rest are largely superfluous.