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 Post subject: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:20 pm 


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evenin peeps

I've started something I probably will never finish again.

I set up shmups.co.uk and installed mediawiki on it, and well, that's it.

I had this outlandish idea that I would do something with it but, got a bit busy and thought, hmm, not going to happen is it.

Anybody who wants to take it on? That would actually do it justice?

You'd be in full control over the domain and all its hosting (on heartinternet.co.uk full business services, unlimited space and databases and emails and bandwidth etc) and would be in total charge of making it into a really good wiki. I know theres a wikia one around just now, which is pretty good. Anyway, shmups.co.uk doesnt even need to be the final domain, I just had that domain and hadn't put anything on it. I could get a better, more worldwide one for it instead.

Worth a shot anyway, as I'm definitely not going to get around to it.

byebye - malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:26 pm 


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Is this supposed to be the dawn of a shmups-only wiki? That sounds insane and incredibly cool at the same time. Although the "dividi et impera" of knowledge leaves me somewhat baffled.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:46 pm 


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Mmm yeh a shmups only wiki was the general idea at the time but I hadnt thought it through really. I thought I'd just set it up and leave it for people to use, but I suppose there may be quite a bit of adminning involved.

The wikia shootemup one that exists area is quite good but includes a lot of non shmups in it. Its not really focused purely on the shmup and shmup alone.

See, the thing is, shmups.com used to be kept really up to date. And then it wasn't. And although I'm vainly hanging onto it, I really don't know what to do with it. Mostly, I want to just to turn it into a splash page for the forum here, and whatever else might exist or could exist.

Then during a bored half hour I registered shmups.co.uk and installed media wiki as I mentioned above on it. I thought maybe somebody could get it going, especially if its advertised here a lot. And a few people have said I could do with some sort of solid repository for information that's otherwise getting lost or hard to find. I think it was Dave K that posited it first, but there were others.

Anyway, if it became big and healthy, then I would have more of a push to make shmups.com into a launch page for several things. The forum sections definitely, but I wiki dedicated to shmups also. And then I could eventually get the rest of shmups.com into a simple review layout where I personally can focus on making reviews, which is what I originally started it for.

\Welp its up there, I've got logins for anybody that can admin it well and take it over... if it doesnt work, it doesnt work.
but if it does it would be insane and cool at the same time eh :)

byebye - malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:16 pm 


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Bravo Malc! I do remember proposing this when wikis were all the rage, and think it still could be a more efficient mechanism to pull out strategy guides threads, reviews, and so-on into an indexed archive that is more easily navigable for newbies and lurkers. It certainly would require some administrative overhead to monitor submissions but I don't think any more work than what admins on the forum do today. I also like the attitude of "lets just see what happens" and not set any upfront expectations. The community will decide.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:00 pm 


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Hi Dave!

Don't think anybody's that bothered actually, I thought somebody might have liked to be the official webmaster of it but nobody's said. Maybe there's no need for it, or maybe it needs seeded a lot before the potential can be seen in it. Its an empty box right now and doesnt even have a logo - so doesnt look that interesting really. Must stop starting things I don't finish :) byebye - malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:37 pm 


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Saw this being posted by the shmups Twitter feed this morning, and immediately remembered this thread I made about Wikimup, a similar idea. Even though that one died horribly (no one ever updated it plus spambots went to town on it), I still think a shmup based Wiki could be viable if enough knowledgeable folk were to actually contribute. I think some of the super-detailed messes (I cried recently when I saw the RFJ articles, then marked them all for cleanup while still sobbing) that are shmup articles on Wikipedia would better be of use on a more genre-focused venture like this.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:13 pm 


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Hiya

Was thinking of changing it over to shmupwiki.com or something, but I really don't know if anybody really is that interested in being webmaster of it. Got a whole dose of PMs, but nothing concrete. I've had loads of comments over the years to throw shmups.com over to the community to develop, but to be honest I don't think its a really good idea. Could just die horribly too.

Well its open to anybody who thinks they could give it a go. Good domain (shmupwiki.com? shmupswiki.com?), unlimited webspace, emails, usual gubbins, be the official owner and webmaster of it, live like a rock god, but nothing much. Makes me think that wikifying shmups.com isn't the way to go after all, even though there's been so many people who have wanted that. Maybe they are wanting the end product, which would be nice.

I was thinking of putting shmups.com back to the way it was in 97ish. It was actually a blog before such things existed, but I don't think my meandering ramblings on the subject would cut it any more. SHould we maybe have a bonfire? Oh, I dunno. *thinks*

byebye malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:39 pm 


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Is there a way to rig the wiki so that an administrator can section off one area that is completely uneditable (known/common basic facts, statistics, and agreed info) while a designated rest of the page for a game is left to be editable?

If that were the case, I'd consider taking this on as I can simply add to the overall accumulation of knowledge without the possibility of going backward. But if any page with the solid info is fully editable at anytime, the administrator job would probably just become a web janitor restoring the same pages from spambots and idiots over and over and over. I wouldn't want that. There are way too many games to maintain that kind of load.


I'll let you answer that question first before I detail my idea further...
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:25 am 


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hiya DJ

I supposed the quick answer is I dont know :)

I am not the most technical when it comes to back end style stuff - I do graphics and html and thats about it - thats why shmups.com is in such an old fashioned sorry state. The most I did with the wiki is, erm, installed it - and that's how it stands just now.

I have the same concerns really - thinking about it - you have something here which seems way open to abuse doesnt it? I mean, its the same system that wikipedia use themselves. It seems that you can just go in and change stuff without any real security controls stopping you doing so. Ok, it does roll back, I think, but that would be really tedious, and janitor like, yes.

What I had envisaged was a permanent place to keep these great GDs and stuff that people complain get lost so quickly in here, echoed by sentiments from a few others. But if its going to be prone to bots and idiots...stuff that.

I dont mind handing over they keys if you want to have a delve in there. No pressure, no expectations and if it all fell apart doesnt matter. byebye!! - malc

EDIT: doesnt have to be a wiki ... i suppose..... could really easily set up a joomla or something - that would end up a nice repository of categorised info, you can let lots of approved editors in there. AM willing to get any decent web domain for it too - its just that I have shmups.co.uk just now sitting empty and thought I'd put somethign on it. If it came to anything decent, I would be linking it as a major section into shmups.com - bringing some life back into that site, and as a permanent repository.

anyway, worth having a mess about with I spose. :)


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:16 am 


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I'm not sure spambots and idiots are that big of a deal. That's the thing about wikis, random anon readers can quickly fix/revert any garbage that appears. Thus taking the load off the admin.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:12 am 


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malc wrote:
hiya DJ

What I had envisaged was a permanent place to keep these great GDs and stuff that people complain get lost so quickly in here, echoed by sentiments from a few others. But if its going to be prone to bots and idiots...stuff that.


All I care about is a one-stop place to find every name-drop of every shmup that exists with the matching relevant info. Like you, I don't give a crap about turning your site into some 'shrine'. I'm interested in the info on your site to be organized and relevant. I want your xenocide files to be useful again.

I remember bloodflower's rants about why a wiki for this would suck hard, and kinda agree with him for the most part, especially if icycalm, EOJ, and Recap all tried to contribute to the same article, with the internet exploding in a cloud of the pettiest shitstorm ever.

I need a project that'll keep me from spending money for a year so I can save money up to get married.


Here's what I really want to do:

I'll drive your shmups.co.uk, but use it as a drafting ground. Like I'll use it as intended to basically put in every shmup name drop from your xenocide, Turrican's xenocide updates, Postman's archived Shoot The Core info, all that. Then let the community get to work.

BUT,
when we have enough info on a game that's pretty complete, instead of the constant possibility something or someone messing that up, I want to be able to take the information and add it to your Xenocide files myself. I'm all about maintaining the format, theme, and appearance of your website as I don't care enough to desire to change any of that. I only care about the data at this point. The only major change I'd propose besides adding game names and new consoles to your preexisting tables, is when a game is clicked on, it would go to a new page I would craft based on the shmups.co.uk wiki info made with your preexisting review templates, then if one of your old reviews exist, a link would be added in that wiki section. Since you're good at leaving mothballed sites, I'll know this accumulated info isn't going to go anywhere so this massive crazy project will never be all for nothing.

If the shmups.co.uk for whatever reason becomes self-sustaining with absolutely minimum maintenance. Your xenocide files won't be needed, and that'll be the end of it.


I know you don't like people touching your website. I know this. All I can tell you is I had a job for several years maintaining a website about as basic as yours and I've co-organized the Shooting Game Tournament on this site for like, two prior years.

Think about it.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:52 am 


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I really wonder if having editing open to the public would be a good idea, or really necessary at least at first. Keeping it mostly closed and just spending some time and milking info off the forums (strategy, reviews etc.) and then open it up once it's on it's way could be best so that there's basic organization and formatting in place.

I know on wikipedia they lock editing on pages that are really active, for example Harry Potter around movie releases, so that they don't get sabotaged. But I think they do let people with long standing accounts edit them. If it's possible something like that may be a good idea, or an approval process before 'finished' articles can be changed.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:37 am 



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I think the 'full public editing' thing is just bleh, mostly because it leads to a bunch of small stub pages made by over enthusiastic contributors.

Also I've seen a similar site where someone who really really really liked Gradius V made a huge gradius series page and didn't even know of the existence of Salamander. Sure, someone could fix it, but it pretty much involved re-writing the entire page and replacing it. Furthermore the public editing thing works well with wikipedia because frankly they have lots of infrastructure and crazy people that are able to catch weird shit fast and remove it. This community does not have that; or at least not the right type of crazy people.

Whoever would 'own' this would do well to just recruit a few people they know are not crazy and are interested in particular things and give them access. Like say someone who was really into Raizing stuff could throw down some content. Maybe move some of the strategy guides into that format (assuming the authors are ok with that) etc.

I dunno, I think the rush of initial public access would just lead to 'a huge list of shmups with bleh content' and I'd rather see less of a 'list' and more 'here's a bunch of content about some specific things'.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:00 am 


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hi peeps

at work just now, so here's some quickie bullet points of things I am liking

shmups.co.uk (or shmupwiki.com) becomes drafting ground as suggested for all pertinent info about a title. Imagine all the good info ever about it, in one page. all sorts of strategy guides etc.

shmups.com razed to the ground. (I must not be precious about it)

shmups.com becomes a permanent and safe and solid repository for completed wiki info, obviously with option to update if needed.

shmups.com therefor becomes useful again and not a dead site with to be honest, some cringeworthy stuff on it (hey, I was young then)

shmups.com also is a launch page for the forum, nice big buttons or shit like that.

people finally get to contribute in a controlled manner (its the control bit I was never ever sure about before)

cheers for opinions guys... malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:15 am 


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I like those proposals. Just point .co.uk at the same place as the .com :D
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:49 pm 


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Sounds good to me.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:33 pm 


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Hi all!

I've had me dinner nomnomnom. Ok, I've taken comments on board and here is what I think sounds like a good plan.

First, I've bought the domain shmupswiki.com, and made it the main domain for this project.

OK, we have a site here called shmups.com. And although I've left it in a mothballed state for ages, I did spend every day for years and years keeping it updated. Then a bunch of stuff happened and I didnt have the time any more. That's why I have less than 100 posts, and people think I'm a lazy bastard.

We also have the forum as well. Lovely. That's going swimmingly.

What I'd like to do is:

On my part, put anything that's currently on shmups.com in some sort of archive, but its not part of the site any more. It's finally getting a bit of a reboot.

I am going to make shmups.com a launch page for all the nice sections of the forum. I'm also going to make it a repository for 99% complete community created wiki pages. Pages where you can find out all the important info, strategy guides etc about a title. Etc.

And that's enough I think for shmups.com. Keep it focused and tight.

Next, we've got shmupswiki.com (previously shmups.co.uk)

DJ Incompetent - if you are still up for it, and since you are in there first, you are welcome to do what you said you'd like to do. I will send you new logins (as the domain has changed) and you are free to do whatever you think fit with it. I'm expecting a wiki project that will either become the top shmups focused wiki, or at least provide community-created finalised pages as mentioned above, to go into shmups.com.

What should give the project a bit of a boost is that I consider it to be an official shmups.com project and as such, can pull in any resources that it might still have, whether it has decent positions on search engines, any following whatsoever, people willing to help from the forum, or even just a modicum of goodwill from teh interweb elves.

So anybody else that wants to help - I suppose I better make this a sticky and give it a chance, and join in if you wish to help.

This just my opinion on what I'd like to see overall. The actual gubbins may differ.

off to the garage for sweeties. - byebye - malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:55 pm 


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I'd help but I know nothing about Wiki editting. :lol:

DJ: If you need help with any spreadsheets, migration, or any other manual labor of such a kind, I'd be more than happy to help. I just don't know how to edit a Wiki. I'm pretty good with tedious tasks though. That sounds strange, but look at the spreadsheet I already made in my sig. That took hours. If it helps the community, I'd be up for it. Information isn't available until someone does the ugly work.

Lemme know.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:34 pm 


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neist wrote:
I just don't know how to edit a Wiki.


Dead easy, it'll take you all of ten minutes to grasp the basics, and there's no problem if you screw up as changes can be reverted :)
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:59 pm 


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So are we talking about moving things like the content from the Strategy forum to the Wiki?
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:29 pm 


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hi brent..

I think DJ puts it pretty well above in his post. My own take on it is that whilst the forum is good for discussion, it isnt quite so good as an archive of completed material. Or material that's nearly complete.

I remember a few year's ago, alamone's Raiden Fighters pages he had up. This was at the time when I owned the pcbs. I loved the fact that all the info he had, on strategies and all sorts of handy gameplaying stuff, was there in an instant easy to get website.

Then the site went down and all that good info just went and disappeared. Maybe some of it has been recreated elsewhere, and I see bits of of it on the strategy pages here. But whatever form it is now, it doesnt compare to an simply laid out and categorised website.

There's 19-odd pages in the Strategy Forum, and forums search functions being what they are, its not the most visible or accessible format for getting at that info. I set myself a task to see if there was a Raiden Fighters II Strategy Guide in there, and I cant find it. Maybe its there, I dunno.

So, my opinion is, lets use the forum, and lets use a wiki, and as a result of them, there will be pages of complete information being produced, by community effort, which can therefore be archived and easily accessed in a webpage format. Whether that webpage be shmupswiki.com itself, or whether that be used as a gathering ground and finally archived on shmups.com, "making the xenocide files useful again".

All this might mean reviews get dropped as the main thrust of shmups.com. That was great in the early days, but then everybody and their dog does reviews now, and its no great shakes being a reviews site. Its time for me to stop hanging onto that and see if it can become something else. People have asked time and time to help contribute - well, here's the opportunity to do it.

All that said, I'm really just repeating at points what DJ has said in his post above. I'm happy to go with what he's said, and lets get those mothballs out of the cupboard. My great aunt used to have them, and they stank almost as bad as she did.

byebey - malc


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:23 am 


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I'd be all for giving what help I can in getting things edited and whatnot for the wiki.
I The only thing I don't totally agree with you on Malc is the reviews. IMO the reviews should stay just because it can be difficult to find good shmup reviews that actually take into account scoring systems etc. usually they're just the same sort of drivel found on the big game websites. I haven't actually read many of the reviews in the forums, but I've looked at a fair number of the ones in the xenocide files, and they're just plain better than the vast majority of reviews out there for the genre, it'd be a shame to see them go.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:24 pm 


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I'll help. I really like the idea, hopefully we can get some people to actually participate.


also, there's already quite a bit of good "general" info about shmups on wikipedia and theres no real point in duplicating it. So the goal would be to put information that is not/could not be on wikipedia right?

edit: ok, if we want to have infoboxes and navboxes and all this nice looking stuff we need the "Extension:ParserFunctions" http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ParserFunctions

we would need to use these Parserfuntions (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:E ... rFunctions) for 1.15
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:35 pm 



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I think if I were able to go to shmups.com or .co.uk and access a wiki containing every (submitted) shmup known to exist, it would be great. I would want to be able to browse by tags though, tags could be factual like the year made, even staff member names, but it would be nice if users could tag shooters also, without restrictions, I'm thinking a bit like last.fm handles their artist wiki and browsing. This way someone could look up information for a shooter they really like and want to know more about, then also have recommendations based on similar items. Once a wealth of information is available you could do lots of cool things with the data, besides just having it be a stale wiki where you need to know the name of some obscure shooter to actually find the information of the obscure shooter...

I think for the site to really become interesting you need to have interesting ways of presenting information, and allow for all types of information, even crazy stuff like comparisons between instruction manuals on different systems, or art/graphics comparisons (of ports) presented as non-opinion, just screenshots and actual system data. It wold be cool if there was a slight community aspect also, linking accounts from this forum to accounts on the wiki, just simple things like profiles adding favorite games which link to the wiki, user opinions, links to any videos online, images, fan art, model kits, whatever.. it should all be an option/extensible if someone wants to take it that far.


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:47 pm 


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I have sat back the whole time waiting and seeing if this indeed was going to happen. After seeing spammers have taken it upon themselves to destroy ShmupsWiki.com, I'm going to offer this.... I know basic wiki editing stuff, so if you need a second mod, I'd like to take the project for a spin, and atleast remove spam and make the wiki standable. I'm only looking to get it more started til DJ Incompetent comes back. Half the issue is, that we bit off more than we could chew here. Lets back up, get basic stuff started and have some articles and categories to start from. At this point, its really the call of Malc and Dj Incompetent. Let me try to clear it up and make a start. Get something on the front, and it more connected with here.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:16 pm 


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Sup.
Yep, I still don't have a computer since the great clusterfuck. Wife's machine can't even handle Word. oi. One day I will get there.


Meanwhile,
I gave you admin rights. Do what you need to do. PM me with whatever you need.

Try to build on that template I was working on so you can pre-seed every game title.
If you wanna experiment with something different, I'm not really in the position to make an argument since I can't really be there right now.

Thanks!
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:33 pm 


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Nice. I'd like to see this come to something.


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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:29 pm 


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nice project I hope it gets real someday :)

like devilmanozzy said,start simple,write something!
I don't know what but anything.

maybe there is a need to get that "something" named so let's say a xexex' page?
plenty of people played it this week and it's not a well covered game over the net,so let's make a page on it.

It's just an exemple,you can pick anything else but you need to start step by step,start small and people will follow :D
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:00 pm 


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Aguraki wrote:
nice project I hope it gets real someday :)

like devilmanozzy said,start simple,write something!
I don't know what but anything.

maybe there is a need to get that "something" named so let's say a xexex' page?
plenty of people played it this week and it's not a well covered game over the net,so let's make a page on it.

It's just an example,you can pick anything else but you need to start step by step,start small and people will follow :D


I'm working on getting some sort of template set up. Probably have something to work with in a few days. For now, we're list the games by system. Much like what xenocide files does now. I been reading quite a bit already, and Focus may be on doing the reviews separate from the article on the game itself. Seeing as multiple reviews may be made for a game. This may be seen as messy, but will remove a bit of the overwhelming nature of the review. The feeling is, The reviewers name will be attached to they review, so now they are not responsible for building a article on the game and a review for it. Tho one could argue, the first person to do a review for the game should also build the game article related to the review.

But I want to have a section or two with guidelines up in 3 days. There has to be a understanding that things for the wiki are in beginning stages, but the thing has to get going from a crawl to a walk at some point. Now is the best time to push this forward.

So the wiki should be editable for users and reviewers in three days.
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 Post subject: Re: shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project" :)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:03 am 


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I haven't quite got time to read this thread in depth tonight, but I will, and I'd like to help out if I could find the time.

My initial reaction on a cursory read through is that it might seem odd to have reviews in the encyclopedic world of Wikis. Reviews are so subjective, which is a bit contrary to the point of wikis. Wouldn't it be best to preserve facts and info and data rather than opinion? So how about overviews instead of reviews?

Reviews = opinion = a recipe for clashes and disagreement. Better to stick with facts and explanation (which will cause enough fracas with us lot!).

Of course, when I do read all this in more depth, hopefully I'll be made to feel stupid about this point because I've missed something!
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