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 Post subject: RQ: Bomb distributions for Ketsui, DOJ, ESPGaluda, Shiki II
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 4:46 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
Please suggest bomb distributions that will allow one to clear the following games easily:

  • Ketsui (Type A, first round only)
  • dodonpachi DAI-OU-JOU (Type B-Exy, both rounds)
  • ESPGaluda (Ageha)
  • Shikigami No Shiro II (Sayo Yuhki, Type 1)
I prefer suggestions that maximize bomb usage. However, please suggest as many carefully chosen bombing locations as you can.

(If you need an example of a bomb distribution, here's one that I wrote for Strikers 1945 II: http://www.shmups.com/beepreying/old/mini/s1945iibomu.txt .)
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:43 am 


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I saw what you originally posted, was gonna say there's no easy way to clear the special round in Ketsui, just to get to it is very difficult.

I haven't owned the game in a while, but the main parts to speed things up:

lv 2 - last pattern of the boss, where is shoots at the side.
lv 3 - can get tight at the end with the battle cruiser and helicopters
- to speed up the first form of the boss
lv 4 - if you get caught by the triangle enemies from the side
- final patters of the midboss
- initial pattern of the boss
lv 5 - don't bomb the first part so you get an extra life.
- the large tanks after the midboss
- the overpowered very large enemy while decending the tunnel after the midboss.
- the tanks where fast enemies are coming from the sides that leave suicide bullets
- the clone helicopters later if things get tight


I really don't think the final boss is bad, the patterns aren't too hard to learn. I can't remember how many bombs you get in the game so that ^ may need to be modified, or you might have more to throw. Good luck whatever you choose to do.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:49 am 


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Offhand I'd just say to play the games a few times and see which patterns and such give you the most trouble, and save bombs for there...the guide you linked to was for a Psikyo game, in which bombing rather frequently is encouraged, since unless you know the game like the back of your hand (granted, some players do, and can go a long way without bombing) you will be in spots which are pretty much impossible to get out of without bombing from time to time. In the games you list above, however, you've got a smaller hitbox to work with, and fewer "impossible" spots to encounter; as such, bombing (especially in the Cave games, where it often makes your score suffer) is discouraged as much as possible. Different people have trouble at different spots; find yours, and be ready to bomb at 'em when you get overwhelmed.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:17 am 



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Venom wrote:
I saw what you originally posted, was gonna say there's no easy way to clear the special round in Ketsui, just to get to it is very difficult.

Sorry for the unannounced edits. I just thought that if I knew what people were bombing in the first round, I could use them for the special second round.

Anyway, thanks for the recommended bombing locations. I hope others can build upon what you already have.

By the way, since I am interested in the special second round, what's the easiest way to get there consistently? For example, is it better to start maximizing my bomb usage now and reduce my usage as I become more experienced? Or should I not bomb at all right away?

(Edited to fix a grammatical error.)
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Last edited by BER on Fri May 27, 2005 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:24 am 



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BulletMagnet wrote:
Offhand I'd just say to play the games a few times and see which patterns and such give you the most trouble, and save bombs for there...

Well, I plan to attend a local shmupmeet soon, so I don't have the time in the meet to build a bomb distribution. I think it's faster if I know other people's bomb distributions, create my own distribution from theirs, and adjust it in the meet.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:35 am 


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Look forward to seeing you kick some ass in DDP.

Not too much help here but I remember watching this dude play SNS II at HEY using Sayo(he got a final score of five billion+), he used a bomb on the stage two boss at the pattern where he releases those four circles that move down creating a nasty crossfire.

The same dude also tandem play up to World Order. He also lifed Silvergun.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:40 am 


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BER wrote:
By the way, since I am interested in the special second round, what's the easiest way to get there consistently? For example, is it better to start maximizing my bomb usage now and reduce my usage as I become more experienced? Or should I not bomb at all right away?


Sorry if my response implied I had got to the special 2nd round, I was just commenting on the strict requirements. I sold the board about 6 months ago, at the time I fell just short of clearing the 1st loop. This game also has another problem as it's unemulated so learning things later on will take more time. I would recommend getting familar with the game, say a quick max bomb use clear, then stop using any and master stages sequentially while using throw away runs to practice bosses and rough spots. To get there you need to master the game, can't depend on lucky dodges.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:53 am 



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Venom wrote:
Sorry if my response implied I had got to the special 2nd round, I was just commenting on the strict requirements.

Your response didn't imply that to me, but I was interested in your advice about getting to the special second round anyway! Thanks for sharing, again.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:55 am 



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ESPGaluda is going to be a bit 'fuzzy' since you don't have discrete bombs, just an energy gauge. How much you have at any time is dependent on how long you hold the button when you do use it, and if you hit bullets in kakusei and lose half your gauge.

Also to add to this: if you're not caring about score, it means you're free to use kakusei when you feel you're in over your head, since everything slows down. If you only use it for this, you'll probably have PLENTY of gems when you do use it, so you'll be able to sustain it for a fairly long period of time, and get out of plenty of jams with it. That said:

You get three energy icons in the game: middle of 3rd stage, late part of 5-1, and _very_ end of 5-2.

Since we're going for 'clear', I will assume we aren't using it on midbosses to help with score. (although I will mention it once!)

I don't feel there's anything in stages 1 or 2 to warrant use in this manner. If you were playing for score, you'd burn some on the 2nd stage midboss, and possibly the 1st stage midboss. But you're not, so...save!

3rd stage midboss: the first form is 'busy' and there's lots of bullets on the screen. Drop no more than 1/2 of your energy bar here. The first 1/2 bar refill fairly soon after this midboss. Collect it.

I think the rest of stage 3 can be handled with kakusei, and it is probably wise to safe your full bar for the upcoming stages.

4th stage: this stage I'm not sure about. I think both of the midboss forms can be taken with kakusei use, they're not that bad when slowed down. There are two other 'large' enemies that appear during this level that can be taken easily with kakusei too. There should be plenty of enemies on this level to keep your gem count high, despite using it quite a bit. If you had to use some of the meter on this stage, I'd pick the very first form of the boss, and use 1/4th of your meter. There's a point where it sort of 'converges' two streams of fast moving big round bullets in the middle, use your bomb then. Move into the 'middle' of the boss then too, just in case. (normally here you'd slip past the side of the streams into the same area, but you might as well use the invulnerability/shield to do this). The very last pattern of this boss may require some kakusei, you should have plenty.

5th stage: again there are two 'large' enemies in this stage, but you should take them with kakusei if you need to. Save your bomb energy. The 2nd bomb meter refill is at the end of this stage: there's going to be a screenfull or two of large turrets, and popcorn enemies swarming at the top. The turret fire gets thick here, and the item carrier is right at this point. Destroy the item carrier to release the E item, and then use another 1/4th of the meter to destroy as many of the turrets as you can. You may want to delay a bit depending on situation, as there's more turrets than you initially see. Not too long, as that E item has a habit of just...wandering away offscreen never to return quicker than you'd think.

5th stage boss: Concentrate on the boss, not the satellite thingy she lets go. You want to kill the this form as quickly as possible, otherwise you have to go through an annoying fast 'spread' pattern that's a rhythmic 'tap tap tap' dodge type. It will trigger if you kill the satellite. Honestly, I've always killed the satellite here for point leeching, so I'm not sure if you can kill this form of the boss before the satellite bullet spew becomes too much to deal with. You'll have to experiment. The second form of the boss is one of those annoying differing speed+misdirection patterns: use about 1/4th of your meter when you feel the pattern gets to thick to deal with. The boss will be close to death anyways, it should be enough to kill it or get you really close.

stage 5-2: alice clones! Towards the end of this stage, there's a part where the alice clones pop out and start 'twirling' shooting bullets the while they do. Normally people use this area for points; however there's LOTS of little bullets all over, probably best to use another 1/4th of your meter here. The item carrier for the 5-2 energy item is just beyond this part.

Last boss segment: You SHOULD have a full meter going into this based on what I wrote above. If you don't, well uhh, I screwed up and it's late so... sorry. I don't think you should use any bomb energy until late in the boss fight. There's a point where he refills his health meter, and then spreads a HUGE pair of wings out (they fill up most of the screen, and certainly span it horizontally). At this point, there are 4 forms of the boss left. The last one you can't really use bombs on, as it gives him health BACK if you hit him with it. (you can use bombs, but you have to make sure the blast doesn't hit him, I'll just assume that it's better to use your full gauge before that). I think where you use the meter in these three 'winged' forms depends on your skill and how comfortable you are with the patterns presented. Personally I'd use 1/2 of it on the 2nd form, and 1/2 of it on the 3rd form. On a 'good' day I'd probably distribute that more 1/4 on the 2nd and 3/4th on the 3rd, but your results may vary.

This is just off the top of my head based on mental notes I've taken while playing. I haven't put too much thought into planned bomb usage with 'clear' in mind.
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:01 pm 


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Venom wrote:
lv 2 - last pattern of the boss, where is shoots at the side.
lv 3 - can get tight at the end with the battle cruiser and helicopters
- to speed up the first form of the boss
lv 4 - if you get caught by the triangle enemies from the side
- final patters of the midboss
- initial pattern of the boss
lv 5 - don't bomb the first part so you get an extra life.
- the large tanks after the midboss
- the overpowered very large enemy while decending the tunnel after the midboss.
- the tanks where fast enemies are coming from the sides that leave suicide bullets
- the clone helicopters later if things get tight


I really don't think the final boss is bad, the patterns aren't too hard to learn. I can't remember how many bombs you get in the game so that ^ may need to be modified, or you might have more to throw. Good luck whatever you choose to do.

that's a good bomb pattern, there are 2 spots where i wouldn't bomb though:
-with a bit of practice, you don't need to bomb on the stage 2 boss side grenade attack, you can get it down reliably. just look directly at your ship and try to use up-down dodges (or diagonals)
-"the tanks where fast enemies are coming from the sides that leave suicide bullets"
-->if you're talking about the part were round tanks come from behind, while fast planes are coming from alternating sides, you don't need to bomb; instead, here is what you do:
-use the normal shot
-initially position yourself at 1/5 heigth, 3/4 right (counted from the left edge)
-when the next wave of fast planes appear, wait just a bit to lure bullets, then do a V (to the middle bottom, then to 1/5 height,1/4 right)
-repeat
-->if you're talking about the big tank after with the swarm of fast planes, i like to dash to the right, wait a bit to lure bullets, the slowly go back to the left while using lock-on on the tank. if you waited on the right without moving, there should be a hole in the planes spam allowing you to slowly cross back to the left.

what gets me each time are the helis before the boss, i'm always too slow to kill them.

about the stage 5 1up, i think you have to kill (without bombing) the 2 big tanks, THEN kill the heli that carries the 1up. (so you have to be quick killing the tanks).

also, is it me or is your laser (the one in the center when you're using lock-on) slightly more powerful when you're point-blanking?
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Last edited by chtimi-CLA on Tue May 31, 2005 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:14 am 


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I noticed the laser was a bit more powerful upclose too.

As for the bomb plan, BER wanted a max bomb run and I think mine is light based on getting the 1-ups and score based extra lives. I'd agree that many of those could be removed with practice.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:33 am 



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For Ketsui, I calculated how many bombs are available in the first round. And I think there are 25 bombs available. These bombs come from the following sources:
  • Starting the game (3 bombs)
  • Using a spare life (18 bombs total; 3 for each of your 6 spare lives)
  • Collecting a bomb icon (4 bombs total; 1 for each stage except the first)
But in order to have them all consistently, we must do the following:
  1. Use up all of our bombs before we die
  2. Never get a bomb icon when our stock is already full
  3. Get the 1up from reaching 20,000,000 points
  4. Get the 1up from reaching 45,000,000 points
  5. Get the 1up in stage 3
  6. Get the 1up in stage 5
First, did I calculate the number of available bombs in the first round correctly? And second, is it reasonable to assume that one can perform the above actions consistently?

Also, I'll be compiling all this information about bombing locations into a neat document soon.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:51 am 


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BER wrote:
First, did I calculate the number of available bombs in the first round correctly? And second, is it reasonable to assume that one can perform the above actions consistently?


Looks right to me. The only one I would worry about would be #6. Destroying the buildings, tanks and heli's in 5, without using a bomb to finish any of them off is difficult. Again it's a game without a practice mode or emulation, so things will take longer. Clearing the first round shouldn't be too bad. Remember that bombs are more defensive in Ketsui, they don't deal much damage, but rather let you attack and clear the screen. If you don't screw up, 25 is more than enough to clear. Enjoy the game, Cave's best IMO.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:54 am 


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Venom wrote:
I noticed the laser was a bit more powerful upclose too.

interesting, maybe i should start a specific ketsui thread.
Venom wrote:
As for the bomb plan, BER wanted a max bomb run and I think mine is light based on getting the 1-ups and score based extra lives. I'd agree that many of those could be removed with practice.

yeah i know, that answer was more directed to people less methodic than BER.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:16 pm 



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I do not think the laser does more damage up close. The main laser doesn't even reach full screen, so if you are way back, you arn't even hitting anything.

Second, the reason it may seem that way is because the closer you are, the faster your lock shots connect. At close distances there is less or no interference from outside enemies getting in their path either.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:06 pm 


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Wait, by relying on dying to have access to more bombs, wouldn't that eliminate the chance for accessing the second loop? I know you said "first round only", but I still think it'd be more efficient to minimize the amount of deaths you have to ultimately prepare you to deal with loop 2... acutally, am I even correct in assuming that you need zero deaths after completing the first loop to access the second?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:00 am 



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russ wrote:
Wait, by relying on dying to have access to more bombs, wouldn't that eliminate the chance for accessing the second loop? I know you said "first round only", but I still think it'd be more efficient to minimize the amount of deaths you have to ultimately prepare you to deal with loop 2...

I would indeed eliminate that chance, but I doubt I'll be able to access the second round within a few hours of playing anyway. (I plan to try Ketsui at an upcoming local shmupmeet, but I don't plan to buy it right now.) So my goal is to just clear the first round.

russ wrote:
acutally, am I even correct in assuming that you need zero deaths after completing the first loop to access the second?

That's only true for the special second round (the one with the true final boss). For accessing the non-special second round, the number of deaths plus the number of bombs used must be at most six. So you can still suffer a few deaths and still access this round.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:54 am 


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Quote:
but I don't plan to buy it right now.) So my goal is to just clear the first round.


I'm not sure how good of a Cave player you are, but this is ranked up there close to DOJ in terms of diffiuclty. I don't think any of the other ones are as hard...especially if you're playing for score. That whole "get close" thing makes it super easy to fuck up. GL in your tournament.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:08 pm 



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in terms of just getting through, i feel theyre pretty similar. ive been hitting a wall in doj more so than i ever did in ketsui, but its probably cause i played ketsui a lot more. its hard to explain the difference between the games, but i figure a lot is in the style of patterns and maybe the speed as well.

in terms of scoring, im much better with ketsui. i dont know why but i just suck ass at doj for scoring. ddp too for that matter so that probably has something to do with it. i like ketsuis scoring system a lot, i think its my favorite one. its simple and gives you a lot of flexibility to play while also having a nice risk vs reward element to it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:43 pm 


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Chaining in DDP/DOJ is completely rigid, you have to find the correct path or you loose the chain period. Chaining in Ketsui is much simpler with the autolocking...just start with the closest set of small ships, hold down the A button, and avoid oncoming fire while continuing to plow through clumps of ships at a time (much simpler to read the path in early levels). DOJ is just a cold hard b!tch from the get go.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:33 am 



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First off, thanks to all who have suggested bombing locations.

Now, I have drafted a bomb distribution for clearing only the first round of Ketsui. Here is the spreadsheet that lists the bombing locations and a tab-delimited text file exported from this spreadsheet:

The column headers mean the following:
  • s: stage number
  • t: stage section (Trip or Boss)
  • l: lives remaining (will be filled in later)
  • b: bombs remaining (will be filled in later)
  • description: describes the location in which I should use a bomb
  • who: either Venom recommended to bomb here or Imakichi (in some video) bombed or died here in the special second round
Unfortunately, I have 32 bombing locations listed. I want to have only 25 listed, because that's the maximum number of bombs available to me in the first round. So I would like to know the following:
  1. Among the locations listed in the spreadsheet, which 7 locations are the easiest to survive through without using a bomb? I will consider eliminating these from the bomb distribution.
  2. Eliminate the 7 locations that you have listed in question 1 from my bomb distribution. Among the 25 locations remaining, which 3 locations are the easiest to survive through without using a bomb? I will consider eliminating these from the bomb distribution, too, if I'm unable to get the 1up in stage 5.
If you are having trouble figuring out what any of my descriptions mean, please let me know.

(I will go to sleep now. -_-)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:29 pm 


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why do you plan to bomb in the "ikimachi places"? the 1st loop is nothing like the 2nd. don't bomb in the 1st 2 stages, except in stage 2 before the boss at the 2 big planes before the boss. once you have the grenade attack of the boss down, you will never die.
in stage 3, i would keep :
-last horizontal canal before 1up battleship
-end
boss:
-first form, quick kill
in fact i would use bomb on the first part of the boss and 1 one the 2nd. the last pattern is not too hard reliably without bombs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:18 am 


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Yeah, get rid off those one's through 1 and 2. Except the 1 at the boss, until you learn that attack.

First 3T can go, 2nd one too I think. The bombs at 3B are identical so you only need one.

4T the first 2 are the same. 4B, I'm not sure which patter it is that I would say bomb on, may not be the first. Might be the one Imakichi does. I don't have the replay anymore. 4 midboss, not the first pattern. After it is at low life and starts to speed up its attacks.

Watch out with the bombs at the beginning of 5, may lose the 1-up.

5 T large tanks after midboss Venom
5 T large tanks after midboss Imakichi
-These are the same.

5 T the big one near the end of descending zone Venom
5 T the big one near the end of descending zone (need another?) Imakichi
-But you might need 2 here. There are 2 big ones that can cause trouble.

5 T tanks from below plus fast enemies Imakichi
5 T tanks from above plus fast enemies Venom
5 T clone helicopters Venom
5 B "first form, boss rotates and red bullets everywhere" Imakichi


I think that gets you down to 21. As much as I'd like to see it, clearing in an afternoon isn't going to happen. Knowing and doing aren't the same thing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:43 am 



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chtimi wrote:
why do you plan to bomb in the "ikimachi places"? the 1st loop is nothing like the 2nd.

It's for two reasons. First, I wanted to use all of the bombs available to me. And second, the "Imakichi places" gave me more ideas on where to bomb. Venom suggested only 10 places that I should bomb, so I still wanted to know 15 more places to bomb. No one else gave me this information, so I decided to use the "Imakichi places" to fill up the rest of my bomb distribution.

Of course, sometimes he bombs away and dies to certain enemies' return bullets, which are not found in the first round. But I suspected that I would have problems in the first round with these same enemies. I left it up to you guys who played the game to confirm my suspicions.

Oh yeah, and thanks for your advice, chtimi. I think I accepted all of your suggested changes to my bomb distribution. I'll display the revised one soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:51 am 



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Venom wrote:
5 T the big one near the end of descending zone Venom
5 T the big one near the end of descending zone (need another?) Imakichi
-But you might need 2 here. There are 2 big ones that can cause trouble.

By "the big one", I meant the only large helicopter that produces lots of explosions when it's destroyed. I called the hexagonal or octagonal aircraft that appear before and after this big helicopter as "medium aircraft".

I plan to use three bombs in this downward-scrolling section of the stage. But should I use two of them on the medium aircraft or on the large helicopter?

At any rate, thanks for your advice, Venom. You've helped me pick the final 25 bombing locations that I'll take to the shmupmeet.

Venom wrote:
As much as I'd like to see it, clearing in an afternoon isn't going to happen. Knowing and doing aren't the same thing.

Indeed, I expect not to clear the game. But if I set my goal at any less than clearing the game, I wouldn't be excited.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:57 am 



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All right, let's summarize what we have so far.

Ketsui. This spreadsheet (and its tab-delimited ASCII text representation) lists the 25 places that I plan to bomb in order to clear the first round.

I'll write about the effectiveness of this bomb distribution over the weekend. At any rate, I'm very motivated to play Ketsui, and I hope to play it for a few hours in the shmupmeet!

dodonpachi DAI-OU-JOU. I don't remember anyone suggesting some places to bomb, so I'll just use this Japanese guide:

http://inu40.web.infoseek.co.jp/daioujyou/stage.html

Off hand, to reduce rank, I'll use one bomb on the first boss and another on the second boss. I'll also avoid increasing rank by not collecting the hyper items in stage 1 (I don't know whether I'll do the same in the other stages).

ESPGaluda. zakk, thanks for writing that guide. Although I haven't had the time to distill the information, I'll read it over in the shmupmeet.

Shikigami no Shiro II. Maybe in another shmupmeet...

Also, let's throw in...

DoDonPachi. Well, I only plan to clear Area 2-2. If I placed a "1" to the right of some description, I'll most likely use a bomb there.

Overall, I feel a little more comfortable playing these games. And that means I'll have a little more fun. :)

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:01 am 



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Quote:
I'll also avoid increasing rank by not collecting the hyper items in stage 1 (I don't know whether I'll do the same in the other stages).

i can only get one hyper in stage 1 myself, not sure how hard it is to avoid getting hypers, id imagine you run into it during the heat of dodging bullets. for me it comes out pretty late in the stage, so if i get it and use it immediately it might still have a bit to go by the time i get to the boss. could just bomb anyways to get out of the hyper.

you might as get them and use them during the stages though, its never really given me a huge problem (might be a bigger problem actively avoiding them). during bosses its a different story, but i use it on 1 to boost hit and the hyper meter up, sometimes 2 if i want a good challenge (and again to boost hit/hyper). and again, even if you have it on a boss, you can just bomb out of it.

Quote:
Overall, I feel a little more comfortable playing these games. And that means I'll have a little more fun. :)

but ketsui is so much fun the first time without knowing what the hell to do!


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