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 Post subject: GD: Progear scoring
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:42 pm 



Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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Or, the lets help Neil understand what the hell is going on with the scoring discussion. I've read the shmups.com review, and I understand some things - like how bullets only turn into things when they're within a certain distance from the enemy...but other than that I don't really get what's going on. Can anyone help?


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:25 am 


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Basically what you want to do is at first cancel enemy bullets with your "normal" shot and collect the "rings" that they drop. Once you've collected enough rings, the ring icon in the lower left will change; this indicates how much "stones" (the things that bullets turn into when destroyed with the "gunner" weapon instead) are worth. Once you have enough rings to make the stones worth the most (they should look like diamonds when you cancel bullets into them), then you want to find a nice big bunch of bullets to cancel into stones, in order to "cash in" the ring value. Once you do this the ring value will go down, so you'll have to start collecting rings again to raise the stones' value back up.

It's not quite as complex as it sounds, honest. Hopefully I worded that halfway decently...
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 2:29 pm 



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That already makes things clearer for me. Once I get home I'll try it out :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:54 pm 



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I don't know if I'm retarded or what. I sort of get what's going on now...but it just doesn't seem to be coming together for me, and it's getting really frustrating.

I understand how the ring value is the value of the jewels, but after I, say, turn a swarm of bullets into diamonds, the ring value is still up around 2000 or something, but RIGHT AFTER those bullets turn into diamonds some other bullets will turn into little blue things. It seems like nothing I'm doing is consistent. >scratches head furiously<


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 1:18 am 


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The "ring value" that you're talking about is actually the total number of rings you've collected, it doesn't affect how much the stones are worth. What you have to watch is the ring icon itself, its shape changes once you've collected enough rings to maximize the stones' value. I wish I had a pic of it, but once it's at max it looks like little decorative spiky thingies are sticking out of the top part of the ring (sorry I couldn't think of a better description). Keep an eye on that icon, you'll recognize it eventually. And remember, after you've gotten a batch of diamonds the stones' value will go back down, and you'll need to collect rings for a bit again before it goes all the way back up.

Actually, when you go into "gunner" mode by holding down the shot button, I think the ring icon changes to a stone icon instead, and shows you what type of gem you've built up to...I'm not positive on this, but try looking for that too.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:34 am 



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Here's another important feature of 'jeweling'. Rings are only created from bullets that are directly caught in an explosion, but stones cause chain reactions--a bullet transforming into a stone causes nearby bullets to transform as well. The higher the jewel level (amethyst -> ruby -> emerald -> diamond), the longer a chain reaction is possible. This has implications for survival strategy as well as scoring: you can clear the screen of bullets with a good chain reaction.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:45 pm 



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ThanX AWJ, I hadn't quite figured that part out. I've been playing Progear for a while now and sometimes when I'm "in the zone", I sort of know what to do and manage to get rid of billions of bullets, but I never really knew exactly what was going on.

ThanX again.

BYEEEEE!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:10 pm 



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Is there any interest in a ST for this game, even one that's highly incomplete? (I have no idea how rank works, and my understanding of the Gunner's Data graphs is fragmentary)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:18 pm 


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Heh, I'm not sure anyone knows what that thing means..."lovely?" What the heck? In any case, I don't know if I've ever seen a post here which details exactly what the end-of-stage stuff means (though I mighta just missed it).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:50 pm 



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"Lovely" is just the arithmetic average of the other two gauges, "Active" and "Safe". The "Lovely" gauge determines your gunner's affection level--0%-20% full is Level 1, 20%-40% is Level 2, 40%-60% is Level 3, 60%-80% is Level 4 and over 80% is Level 5.

I'm not sure what causes "Active" to increase, but "Safe" seems to be simply survival time--it increases at a constant (?) rate, and decreases by a big chunk each time you die. The rate at which it increases seems to vary with the combination of pilot and gunner you have--Ring/Chain (my usual combination) will always have it maxed out by the end of stage 2 if I don't die, and Bolt/Nail is similarly fast, but with, say, Ring/Nail it increases much more slowly.

The other thing I don't know is what effects the gunner's affection level has on the game. For certain specific pilot/gunner combinations the fighter's shot pattern changes slightly when you attain Level 4, but there has to be some effect on the other combinations as well...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:54 pm 


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I'm wondering if it affects the ending you get if you beat the game...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:56 pm 



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Yes, it does. But since it also has a known ingame effect for at least two pilot/gunner combinations (Ring/Rivet and Bolt/Chain) I suspect it has other ingame effects.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:19 am 



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All right, I've figured out the Gunner's Data parameters.

ACTIVE is increased solely by cancelling bullets into stones in Gunner Mode. Proof: Play through Stage 1 without using Gunner Mode at all, or only using it on the boss after destroying all its fins and turrets (so no stones are created). The ACTIVE meter will be completely empty at the end of the stage.

SAFE is essentially a survival-time gauge: it increases at a constant rate over time, decreases by a fixed amount when you die, and increases when you use a bomb (apparently by a fixed amount, regardless of the bomb's duration or effect) Ring/Chain and Bolt/Nail fill the SAFE meter twice as quickly as other combinations do. Proof: Using a given combination of pilot and gunner, if you play through stage 1 without using a bomb and without dying, the SAFE meter will always be filled to the exact same amount at the end of the stage.

LOVELY is, as I mentioned before, simply the average of ACTIVE and SAFE.

As for what effect these have on the game, I'm beginning to suspect that the Gunner's Data parameters are actually what rank is based on. SAFE certainly looks like the sort of parameter that would influence rank...

Off Topic: I watched Howl's Moving Castle today and it reminded me of Progear for some reason.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:04 pm 


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AWJ wrote:
Is there any interest in a ST for this game, even one that's highly incomplete?


Absolutely! I can contribute a bit, but my current best is a 1cc with 13m points (on the US version - default settings). Not sure if that's good enough :oops: . I've learnt a fair few patterns though.

There are still two parts of the game however where I have to bomb or die. I keep one bomb back for the final boss so I need to figure out one of these sections to access the second loop:

| Stage 4 |

Right near the end of the level just before the tanks parachute in before the boss, two large planes planes fly down the screen shooting the three way bullets. There are just too many bullets to turn into gems (it seems) and absoloutley no where to move. Any ideas?

| Stage 5 |

The very first attack wave with those chariot things. There has got to be a set pattern to avoiding these, I just can't see it. Again any tips would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:46 am 


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I understand how the chain reactions and stuff work, but I still don't understand how to maximize points. I usually get to the third boss w/ like 2.6 million on 1 credit. I assume if I understood the scoring a bit more I'd have twice that much.

What would I want to do if there's a lot of bullets on screen? Use the normal shot, wait 'til the bullets turn to stones, then hold the shot down and suck them in, rinse and repeat?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:58 am 


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Either way you'll want to turn bullets into stuff and "suck them in," but getting a lot of points means gathering rings at first in order to raise the stones' value (the latter are the ones which give you the majority of your points); once the stone value is up to the "diamond" level, you'll want to 'cash it in" by collecting a bunch of diamonds instead, via the gunner shot; once you do this, though, the stone value will be lowered and you'll have to start collecting rings to raise it again.

It took me a little while to figure out myself, but if I can do it so can anyone, heh heh.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:14 am 



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To raise the jewel level, you have to create a sufficient number of rings at once, or at least within a very short span of time (the time window is similar to chaining in DonPachi, or even a bit tighter) A typical way to do this is to blow up a large vehicle just as it unleashes a salvo of shots. Blowing up a formation of small planes just as a larger vehicle's fire passes through them is another.

Once you have raised the jewel level to diamond, you want to get as many bullets onscreen as possible and then trigger a chain reaction, ideally by blowing up some small vehicle (saving the bigger machines to create more rings with afterwards).


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:44 am 


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Thanks. I'll give that a shot and see what i could come up with. a video would be even better, but I'll stick to trial and error for now. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:39 am 


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Okay, how the fuck do I beat that cunt of a boss Kraken (Stage 4) w/o bombing. Points of frustration:

-2nd form when she lobs that shit straight out, they leave a trail of bullets that go up, and then fall down. It happens so fucking fast. Luck has to be a factor.

-I take it at the end if you haven't built up some jewels, you're going to get your ass handed to you.

Also, last form of the 3rd boss. I almost always have to bomb. I start up at the top, go down, come a little bit forward, but can never get an opening.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:02 am 


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last phase of boss 3: use the half-ellipses like a tambour door. hop in on the convex side and wait till you can leave on the other side of the pattern.

flashing Kraken-attack: if you stay right above the enemy, you won't have to dogde a thing. however, it's difficult to get there in time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:24 pm 


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Imhotep wrote:
last phase of boss 3: use the half-ellipses like a tambour door. hop in on the convex side and wait till you can leave on the other side of the pattern.


I'm even more confused now. O_o
I'll give it a shot though.

Quote:
flashing Kraken-attack: if you stay right above the enemy, you won't have to dogde a thing. however, it's difficult to get there in time.


Hmm... no other safe spot? That would be tough as hell to get over there. I'll keep that in mind though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:57 pm 


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Quote:
Hmm... no other safe spot? That would be tough as hell to get over there. I'll keep that in mind though.


It's not that hard, as there is a short break before this attack. You have to be moving towards it during the pattern before, though. Today I somehow managed to keep the pattern low, so the whole upper screen was a safe spot.


I have a question: if I have gained enough rings to trigger diamonds, does it still make sense to collect more rings? Or will the ring-quality be resetted in the same way, no matter how many rings will be collected after diamond-quality has been reached?
Does the ring-total in the lower-left corner work as a multiplier? If not, what purpose does it serve?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:47 pm 



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Something interesting that I just noticed that I haven't seen in this thread is the bomb multiplier. Whenever you collect a bomb and receive the x2 multiplier, the base stone goes up, to a maximum of the big emerald. This makes it easier to collect diamonds since the number of rings you need to collect is less.

That probably wasn't explained very well so here's an example:

Make it to the end of stage two and grab the bomb right before the boss. You should notice that your stone value never goes down below the big amethyst, instead of the small one like at the beginning of the game.

Continue on to the end of the third stage and grab the bomb before the boss. Now your stone value doesn't go below the small ruby. When you kill an enemy to create rings, the rings will start at the small ruby level, instead of the small amethyst, making it easier to get to the diamond level.

Of course, if you die or bomb, your base stone value resets back to the small amethyst.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:36 pm 


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Nice nj... was wondering about that x2 in the corner. :)

While we're on the topic of bosses, what's the normal strategy? On the first boss, there's like 5 or 6 pieces you can kill to get some jewels. It seems that even though I hold down fire and get diamonds, it doesn't reset. Is this true? I guess onaverage, I go into the first boss fight with 500,000 point and leave with 750,000 or so.

The 2nd and third bosses I don't see any "parts" so I just fire away.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:13 am 



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nj wrote:
Something interesting that I just noticed that I haven't seen in this thread is the bomb multiplier. Whenever you collect a bomb and receive the x2 multiplier, the base stone goes up, to a maximum of the big emerald. This makes it easier to collect diamonds since the number of rings you need to collect is less.


Nice. I'd completely overlooked that, even though I now remember having read it somewhere before. Added to the (still in progress) ST.

Imhotep wrote:
I have a question: if I have gained enough rings to trigger diamonds, does it still make sense to collect more rings? Or will the ring-quality be resetted in the same way, no matter how many rings will be collected after diamond-quality has been reached?


When you switch from Gunner mode to Fighter mode after having created at least one stone, the jewel level is always reset to its base/lowest value (normally small amethyst, or higher if you have the maximum bomb bonus, as nj has noted)

Example: The jewel level is at diamond. You press and hold the fire button to switch into Gunner mode. Now, as long as your shots do not cause any bullets to transform, it is safe to release the fire button and switch back into Fighter mode at any time. The jewel level will not reset. However, as soon as you cause even one bullet to transform into a stone, then the jewel level will reset the instant you let go of the fire button thereafter. It doesn't matter whether you collect the stone(s) or let them drop off the screen.

You want to create stones in as big a batch as possible--don't "waste" a built-up jewel level on a puny pattern of 10 bullets. Turn them into rings and wait for a bigger haul.

Imhotep wrote:
Does the ring-total in the lower-left corner work as a multiplier? If not, what purpose does it serve?


Two things:

- The jewel count determines the duration of your bombs. When you press the bomb button, the bomb emerges from your plane and flies somewhat slowly towards the right. When the bomb touches enemies or bullets, its flight slows down and your jewel count rolls down as the bomb continually damages the enemies and turns the bullets into rings (bullets transformed by a bomb always turn into small amethyst rings of minimum value). When your jewel count reaches zero, or when the bomb reaches the right edge of the screen, the bomb explodes. The explosion has a fixed duration. Your plane is invulnerable from the moment the bomb is released until the end of the explosion.

- When the jewel count is 10000 or higher, you receive points for each of your bullets (including your gunner's projectiles) that strikes an enemy. The points you get per bullet are equal to your jewel count / 10000 (truncated) times 10. This per-bullet bonus is doubled if you have the maximum bomb bonus--that's what the "x2" means! Note that getting the maximum bomb bonus also immediately adds 10000 to your jewel count.

Since Ring's spread shots and Nail's cannonballs cause the lowest damage per projectile, the Ring/Nail combination can score the most points via the per-bullet bonus. When one of the game's developers at Cave opined that "Ring/Nail is the couple with the highest theoretical scoring potential", it is believed that this is what he meant.

Oh, the one other noteworthy thing about the jewel count is that it is decreased by 1/4 each time you die. Better than dropping to zero...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:45 pm 



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AWJ you know an awful lot about Progear!

A few questions...

"When one of the game's developers at Cave opined that "Ring/Nail is the couple with the highest theoretical scoring potential", it is believed that this is what he meant. "

Where did you read this?

Do you know how restarting in the 2nd loop works? Do the levels have checkpoints and then you are FORCED to restart, or is there an option? I am also wondering if players with max scores are abusing this system, or do you lose too much from dying?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:09 am 



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As I recall, the secret to jewelling is this.

When you switch from regular to gunner, you suck in rings, and the type of ring gets stronger by one.
When you switch from gunner to shot, you suck in stones, and the ring value resets to minimum.

So the way to max out the ring value is to reap many small groups of rings, then you wwant to reap a LARGE group of stones.

Secret#2. it doesn't matter what explodes. any explosion on a bullet will trnasform it. you can abuse scenery to get large reaps of jewels.

Secret#3: You can destroy many enemies and create diamond stones with gunner, as long as you don't switch back to shot to reap them in.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:04 am 



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zaphod wrote:
As I recall, the secret to jewelling is this.

When you switch from regular to gunner, you suck in rings, and the type of ring gets stronger by one.


No, that isn't quite right. The jewel level depends on the highest value of ring you have collected (since the last reset). E.g. if you collect a large amethyst ring, your jewel level will immediately change to large amethyst, unless it's already higher than that. It doesn't necessarily change one step at a time--if you collect a diamond ring when your jewel level is small amethyst, your jewel level will go straight to diamond. And it doesn't matter whether you vacuum the ring or collect it "manually".

Collecting rings a few at a time won't help your jewel level. You'll just create low-value rings and your jewel level will stay low. You have to create a sufficient number of rings at once to create high-value rings and raise the jewel level. Note that it doesn't take a huge number of rings to get a diamond. Take the first midsize tank (the kind with a ball turret) in stage 1. It's near the bottom of the screen and has three small tanks in front of it. Fly in front of (i.e. overlapped with) the leftmost small tank, wait for the midsize tank to fire, then fall back. Wait until the round bullets from the ball turret are overlapping the leftmost tank and the needle bullets from the flank turret are overlapping the other two tanks, then destroy the three small tanks. If your timing is good, you'll get at least one diamond ring.[/img]


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:00 am 


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So what's the deal w/ killing the bosses. Seems that even if I'm in gunner mode, I always just sucke in rings, not stones. I can only get stones if I kill a "part" of the boss.

I'm also finding Bolt to be the better choice if you can "control" him and not kill everything too fast.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:44 pm 


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Anyone know what the kids waving the flag next to your score indicates? :?


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