Is playing for fun != playing for score?

[Randorama]

It depends on the game. Experimentation is key. As I get closer to 1 crediting Batsugun I'm amazed I am not as sick of the game considering it's the only shooter I've been playing for a month. It has actually gotten progressively more enjoyable as I have played it and sharpened my tactics.

Yes!

*does some somersaults out of joy*

That's the key point of gaming. Once you get confident with the engine, you find pleasure in just being able to properly manipulate it. Knowledge is love!

[gundamalpha]

playing for score is really fun, but to get the fun factor from a game need not be playing for score

[jp]

To some people playing for score is fun. Playing for score is what gives shmups an extra boost of replay value over other genres. If you aren't too great at shmups, then maybe completing the game with 1 credit or, in the case of limited credits, completing the game period is where you'll get your kicks. But once you beat the game credit feeding, then you can try for 1 credit. And once you can 1 credit it, then you can stack on even more replay by playing for score.

And some shmups are just for different people. Battle Garegga, Mars Matrix, and Border Down are for badasses who want incredibly challenging games that will push their abilities to the limits by giving them incredibly indepth scoring mechanics. On the flipside, anything by Tecno Soft is more just for people who just want to have fun and don't really care about scores.

At the end of the day, its somewhat impossible to throw out an all encompassing "Playing for score isn't fun!". It may not be fun to you, but apparently Randorama eats playing for score up. Likewise, some people may feel striving for a 1CC is pointless and too difficult, but to me it makes shmups a bajillion times more interesting than they otherwise would be.

[CMoon]

Not to take this too far off topic, but I've never gotten so many mixed signals pertaining to rank management as I have with Garegga...some, as above, say that unless you're going for score you'll barely notice the rank, while others insist that you MUST learn to manipulate it in order to finish the game, regardless of score. In all honesty, from what I know of the game I have no idea how you could beat it while ignoring rank altogether...if you grab all the items, blast all the enemies, etc. with impunity, the game punishes you, regardless of score. And since you're not earning as many points (or extends), can you really count on dying newbie-style (at non-predetermined spots) to "save" you? It just plain doesn't make sense to me...

OK, here's the straight shit:

I don't know how to beat it with OR without rank management. Really beating the game requires godlike skill PERIOD. Whether you are suiciding or not, you must be a fucking god to beat garegga (but then again, people beat DOJ all the time too, so whatever).

As an average player, I can get to level 5 on 1cc with or without rank management, so what does it really matter? If you are one of those super-players, then yes, you'll probably need to read rando's faq and get into all that stuff, but if you are more like me, just play it and have fun. Garegga totally lets you play it whatever way you want. Actually my understanding of Garegga is simply put, if you want to beat it and get a high score, you simply must be REALLY good and accept the high rank.

But yes, for most players, this rank thing with Garegga is completely blown out of proportion. I don't think we're all going to be 1cc'ing it anytime soon.

[Dylan1CC]

After playing games for score like Garegga, Progear, Batsugun and to a limited extent, RS, I think the bottom line is you just need to balance your drive to get a better score with your ability to just sit back a bit now and then and simply absorb what makes the game enjoyable.

This is especially true for me with shooters like Garegga and Radiant which have very deep score systems some find irritating. I still have a lot to learn from Garegga's rank and Radiant's chaining, but I don't let that override the things that make the two games epic classics.

I will admit though, last week I got so annoyed trying to safely get past stage 4 in Batsugun I threw my Saturn pad down at the carpet, almost never throw my game pads. But then after I took a break and cooled off, I was able to get to stage 5 on one credit for the first time.

[BulletMagnet]

Disregarding the usual and multitudinous fork-tongued diversions from the actual question...

Rank works in a specific way (see guide), the outcome of playing "traditionally" doesn't divert significantly than playing for score if you also die.

Here it is right from the ST (which, in case you care, I HAVE read before this):

FACTORS THAT AFFECT RANK:

# Pressing a controller button...
# Your ship fires a bullet...Every single bullet you shoot increases rank...
# Weapon shots (when you take them in excess)...
# Weapon shots (when you use them)...
# Activating a secret Option formation...
# Destroying enemies, turrets and bosses...
# Collecting items. Picking up needed items gives a lower increase than collecting surplus items (which increases rank by a lot). Large items also give big increases in rank...
# Nullifying bullets with Weapon attacks...

And in view of the above, you're telling me that when you play without any regard for rank, shooting and collecting everything (plus bombing more often, if you're new to the game), that there really won't be a notable rank difference than if you played while trying to actively control rank, missing items and enemies, etc? It simply doesn't make sense...as always, if I (with my "art brain" ) have missed something, then please, enlighten me.

And offhand, I think that if anyone else on here reacted as irately and offensively as you have here (and elsewhere) to ANY suggestion that, say, DDP or RSG is less than flawless (if you recall, I wasn't even claiming that Garegga was "bad," just inaccessible to newer players, which I've said about several other games), then there would be howls of "fanboy" from every corner of the forum. But apparently Garegga has been judged to be completely beyond that sort of mindset....it would seem that all who worship the game (and disparage those who don't) are the "enlightened," and beyond any and all criticism for their preferences, and everyone who voices dislike for any part of its gameplay system are simply "obtuse." If nothing else, even if I do someday eventually "get" Garegga, I certainly hope that I never have this type of attitude about it.

[landshark]

It falls into 3 categories for me.

1. Will I ever have a chance at finishing this game? Some games I know I'll never have a chance at getting a 1cc.

Yes? Is it in the near term or far term?

Near? Play for survivial.

Far? A mix of score and survival.

No chance at all? Play for score since I'll have to milk everything I can in the areas I can stay alive in.

[mannerbot]

Quit being a douche bag. If you're new to the game you are going to die frequently, keeping the rank down. How could a newer player even hope to one-credit the game? Rank is irrelevant to newer players because the game will kill them regardless.

Rank works in a specific way (see guide), the outcome of playing "traditionally" doesn't divert significantly than playing for score if you also die.

[raiden]

And in view of the above, you're telling me that when you play without any regard for rank, shooting and collecting everything (plus bombing more often, if you're new to the game), that there really won't be a notable rank difference than if you played while trying to actively control rank, missing items and enemies, etc? It simply doesn't make sense...

The things you quoted affect rank, but to such a minor degree you will have a hard time even noticing the effect while you´re not that familiar with the game. Think of a racing game where overtaking an opponent raises your maxmimum speed by 1mph. While you´re still driving carefully, this won´t disturb you, but when you´re really driving at a limit, cutting corners very tightly, it can throw you off balance if you´re not aware of the effect.
As for bombing, this does NOT have an effect on rank. There is a technique of picking up single bomb shards and bombing all the time instead of shooting enemies to keep rank low. But once again, if you don´t know what you´re doing, this will rather make the game harder, even though the rank is low, because you won´t have the bombs availlable for harder boss patterns and such. There are several places in the game where you can bomb for additional medals while survival is easy, enticing you to "waste" your bombs for score so you don´t have them when you would need them to survive.

[BulletMagnet]

If you're new to the game you are going to die frequently, keeping the rank down.

Seeing as you've only got 3 lives (and few extends, since you're playing for score) to work with, I don't know how much that's going to help...and I'm very well aware that newer players are going to have trouble with the game right from the start (most any game can claim that), but that's not what I'm inquiring about.

The things you quoted affect rank, but to such a minor degree you will have a hard time even noticing the effect while you´re not that familiar with the game.

I listed absolutely every rank-increasing element mentioned in the thread...if this stuff is all insignificant, then what DOES raise the rank noticeably?

As for bombing, this does NOT have an effect on rank.

As far as that goes, I was referring to how cancelling bullets with bombs (something pros won't be doing nearly as often as newer players) also increases rank.

[raiden]

I listed absolutely every rank-increasing element mentioned in the thread...if this stuff is all insignificant, then what DOES raise the rank noticeably?

you have played the game, haven´t you? So let me put it another way: did you notice differences in rank depending on the way you played?
One thing that raises rank noticeably is gaining extends without dying. Even then, you have to either play pretty far or perform pretty difficult scoring tricks to gain enough extends, both is not likely to happen to a beginner.

As far as that goes, I was referring to how cancelling bullets with bombs (something pros won't be doing nearly as often as newer players) also increases rank.

afaik, only cancelling bullets with the ship´s main or sub weapons, but not with the bomb, raises rank.

[incognoscente]

...you're telling me that when you play without any regard for rank, shooting and collecting everything (plus bombing more often, if you're new to the game), that there really won't be a notable rank difference than if you played while trying to actively control rank, missing items and enemies, etc? It simply doesn't make sense...

A response from a person only casually interested in Battle Garegga:
Pretend that you didn't know that Garegga had something like rank in it.
Pretend hard. So hard that you can believe it. Garegga at this moment is only what can be taken at face value.

Play Garegga.

Did you do any better?

Did you answer your own question?


What is noticable to others may not be noticable to you and vice versa. Have you tried simply playing the game yourself and seeing how you do? Do you always have to play it with rank in mind? By my understanding, CMoon and raiden both advocate playing as you will and learning to play around with the system when you are at the right spot.
Garegga has a long learning curve. Managing rank is, in my opinion, something the player must arrive at in time. Rank control is toward the end of the curve.
If you can't dodge, the game will kill you regardless of rank. If you can't chain medals, your score will suffer and you'll net fewer lives. The game will kill you [game over earlier]. If you can't form a consistent plan through a stage and pull it off, the game will kill you. If you can't recognize boss attack patterns and cultivate strategies for them, the game will kill you. This is standard for most shooting games. By your nickname (and some of your posts in various threads), you seem to be saying that you fail at step one. Worry about that before rank.
Also bear in mind that you can dislike Garegga. I'm certainly not its biggest fan, though I have much respect for it and its dedicated players. And occaisionally I enjoy playing it, too. I'd put a smiley here, but I'll let my avatar do that.

I get the feeling you're looking for ghosts in regards to Garegga--any extra reason to dislike it or to otherwise explain why you don't like to play it. I don't like to play certain games. Hard to say which ones, I'd rather play or discuss something I like than something I don't.

[Shatterhand]

Look, I haven't played Garegga all that much in my life, and I can usually reach level 5 in Garegga without giving a damn for Rank... and I think I could do better if I played it more. (Or if I used the little gadgets like red ball and small hitbox stuff)


I remember people saying that Batrider also had a stupid rank (Which is not as bad as Garegga, but still bad), which also was essential to manage to get the most of the game and stuff... and when I first read that, I scratched my head, thinking "WTF? I 1 cced this game! I didn't even know what rank was at that time!"

And then, of course, I saw some people scores... and I found out how incredibly low my scores are...

and then I begun trying to perfect my scoring techniques, and I begun to SUCK LIKE HELL because of this, getting frustrated, and not have any enjoyment of the game at all.

So I stopped, and just got back to play the game like I used to play before, not trying to call out the secret bosses (Though I KNOW how to do it, I just don't TRY to do it anymore) or any fancy stuff. My score got better... not half as good as some people, but I find out that I really had a personal achivement with the game.

I haven't played Batrider for ages now (As I haven't played Aleste 2 for ages now, and everyone who knows me know that Aleste 2 is my fav shmup ever), but not because I "reached a wall"... it's just that I think I've had enough of it. (I have finished Aleste 2 like 1356151 times up until I thought I had enough of it). I never finished Gradius Gaiden, and I haven't touched it for ages now either. I still think it's one of the best games ever, but I wont play it just because "I Have to finish it". I'll play it when I feel "Oh, playing Gradius Gaiden now would be real nice"

I still think Garegga is a good game. Not as good as Batrider IMO, but a pretty good game, and I could NEVER care about Rank. Will I ever finish the game? Maybe... will I ever has a huge score? No, and I just don't care anymore. But I am sure everytime I fire up the game, I have fun with it, and that's what really matters. So, in the end, it's all up to you really... you have to play the game the way you can have the most fun of it... you are playing the game for YOURSELF, and not for other people. You shouldn't ask "Oohh, am I not playing Ikaruga the right way because I don't chain?" or "Ooohh, am I a bad player because I don't care for score?"... what you should ask is "Does playing this game makes any sense to me? Does it bring anything GOOD to my life? Am I having FUN"?"

[Randorama]

And in view of the above, you're telling me that when you play without any regard for rank, shooting and collecting everything (plus bombing more often, if you're new to the game), that there really won't be a notable rank difference than if you played while trying to actively control rank, missing items and enemies, etc? It simply doesn't make sense...as always, if I (with my "art brain" ) have missed something, then please, enlighten me.

The rank is managed by an exponential function, it does increase and decrease by he listed actions. Playing properly for score means that you will inflate it in given point and reduce drastically in other points. Playing disregarding rank will mean that you will increase it with a lower incremental curve and lower with a lower decremental curve. In short, if you play and die normally you can reach the same point and roughly get the same difficulty. regardless of control, you will get roughly the same attacks on the last two stages. For the rest, it's 10 $ per lesson, final exam will ast 1 hour and will be a open reply written text. do you need my paypal account?

But apparently Garegga has been judged to be completely beyond that sort of mindset....it would seem that all who worship the game (and disparage those who don't) are the "enlightened," and beyond any and all criticism for their preferences, and everyone who voices dislike for any part of its gameplay system are simply "obtuse." If nothing else, even if I do someday eventually "get" Garegga, I certainly hope that I never have this type of attitude about it.

yes, you lie to yourself, refuse to understand how a thing works, say that otherd haven't explained to you what you don't won't to understand, etc et cetc...

Opinions are bullshit, every single game has a specific engine, wich is strictly mathematical in nature. Playing shmups for score, in the proper way, means to learn how to manipulate this engine for maximum score, which is strictly mathematical in its nature. All the cow dung that's uselessly written by people without a clue (and i can see worse examples than you on this forum) is pointless, as they don't get any results done. If you want to voice your point of view about how fun is to turn off your brain, move randomly a sprite on screen and have "mindless fun", it's your right, but being taken seriously is not.

There's one basic fact: you don't want to learn and pretend to be taken seriously. Remain as you are, i can't see a worse punishment.

[Icarus]

• On Topic:
  For me, playing for score = fun. I am naturally competitive, enjoy a challenge, and like to push my (limited) abilities to higher levels. games which have deep and involving scoring systems appeal to me, as does simple no-brainer shmups. My hand usually gravitates towards the score-based ones when I'm picking a game off the shelf, though
• Regarding Garegga (again)
  The only thing that disheartens me about the state of gamers today is that they are unwilling to try to play a game in a different way.
  
  Most shmups are just pick up and shoot stuff, which is great for a while but then can quickly become boring once you've blown up everything. Games like Garegga, Mars Matrix, Psyvariar, Border Down and so on advocate a different way of playing a game that on the outside seems similar to all the others in the genre. Each is unique in it's approach to breaking genre conventions, be it risky bulletplay to gain rewards, using colour to influence scoring routes, suiciding to increase scoring potential and/or to decrease a game's difficulty. However they all push some kind of genre rule bending aspect. The only difference between Garegga and the others is that it broke so many rules that it became incredibly difficult for the more casual players to enjoy.
  
  Garegga doesn't necessarily need to be "learned" in order to be enjoyed. When I started out in Garegga, I tried not to pay any attention to rank until I became comfortable with the first five stages, and I found the game punishing, but really enjoyable. The tips I outline in my ST are meant as a guideline only, not the be-all-and-end-all of strategic information, as is all the info in my guides. You can achieve just as good a playthrough of the game ignoring most if not all of those tips, but if you want to ALL the game, then utilising some of them is important.
  
  The only thing I dislike about the shootemup genre is the complete lack of lateral thinking. A genre may be defined by it's base concepts, but when games come along that advocate "thinking outside the box", the amount of negativity that these games attract is both surprising and disheartening.
  
  And as much as I enjoy these kinds of Garegga-bashing threads, it's really starting to become tiresome. If you really hate Garegga that much, why force yourself to play it? Go play Juno First or something.
• And this comment:
  

  But apparently Garegga has been judged to be completely beyond that sort of mindset....it would seem that all who worship the game (and disparage those who don't) are the "enlightened," and beyond any and all criticism for their preferences, and everyone who voices dislike for any part of its gameplay system are simply "obtuse." If nothing else, even if I do someday eventually "get" Garegga, I certainly hope that I never have this type of attitude about it.

  I find this kind of comment very ill-thought-out. It has got nothing to do with being "enlightened" or "obtuse" and more to do with enjoying a different kind of challenge. If you don't think you're up to the challenge, don't even attempt to force yourself to play it, and go back to playing something a little... simpler... in design. Games like Garegga are targeted at players that liked to be challenged in different ways, and in that respect, they won't appeal to everyone.

[BulletMagnet]

My intentions here have been very badly misinterpreted, it would seem. If you look back at the first post I made here, I was not "bashing" Garegga at all, but rather inquiring into something I didn't get about how something therein worked, since I'd heard different things from different people. For doing this, I get not only my taste in games but my character and intelligence insulted outright; I still maintain that if someone else here made a similar inquiry about RSG or DDP and was similarly flamed for doing so, those doing the flaming would be criticized as overreacting fanboys who take even the slightest insinuation that their pet game is less than perfect as a personal insult. But, again, for not "getting" Garegga I'm given the advice to either "wake up" or "go play something simpler" instead of having my question addressed, since I would apparently have to "pay for lessons" in order to be worth any upstanding Garegga fan's time. This sort of treatment certainly makes me even more eager to inquire further into the unending depth of this silly video game...notwithstanding, on we go...

afaik, only cancelling bullets with the ship´s main or sub weapons, but not with the bomb, raises rank.

I must have understood what the word "weapon" in the ST meant, my fault.

One thing that raises rank noticeably is gaining extends without dying.

This is the very first time I've ever heard of longevity being a rank factor in Garegga (I don't think it was in the ST, unless I missed it). I thought that this was only applicable in Bakraid, but I guess I was misinformed up till now.

Playing properly for score means that you will inflate it in given point and reduce drastically in other points. Playing disregarding rank will mean that you will increase it with a lower incremental curve and lower with a lower decremental curve.

I'm still not quite clear on this...if you try to control rank you'll grab and blast everything at certain spots and stop doing that at others; if you play "traditionally" you'll be blasting and grabbing everything all the time, which should increase rank even more. You might not be quite as proficient at getting absolutely everything as an "expert," but is that enough to make a substantial rank difference?

yes, you lie to yourself, refuse to understand how a thing works, say that otherd haven't explained to you what you don't won't to understand, etc et cetc...

I've never before inquired here about this specific facet of Garegga's rank before (namely its level of accessibility to newer players) and thus have never gotten any information from anyone on it...why do you insist on thinking that every time I even mention Garegga's rank I'm only doing so under thinly veiled false pretenses, in order to bash it? Do you think I enjoy having to wade through pages upon pages of ill-deserved flames every time I ask something like this?

The only difference between Garegga and the others is that it broke so many rules that it became incredibly difficult for the more casual players to enjoy.

This was the only thing I wanted to hear brought up when I asked my original question; that one sentence would have shut me up, right there, and prevented me from wasting any more of anyone else's valuable time. There's still disagreement on this, I suppose, but at least I finally got someone to address it. I probably shouldn't have even expected that much, considering my past record.

[Neon]

The only thing I dislike about the shootemup genre is the complete lack of lateral thinking. A genre may be defined by it's base concepts, but when games come along that advocate "thinking outside the box", the amount of negativity that these games attract is both surprising and disheartening.

I would agree actually.

Randorama, raiden, Icarus et al know their shit...I do not. Obviously. So I take back my comments...

[Randorama]

My intentions here have been very badly misinterpreted, it would seem.

Absolutely not, can you stop acting like a victim?

If you look back at the first post I made here, I was not "bashing" Garegga at all, but rather inquiring into something I didn't get about how something therein worked, since I'd heard different things from different people. For doing this, I get not only my taste in games but my character and intelligence insulted outright; I still maintain that if someone else here made a similar inquiry about RSG or DDP and was similarly flamed for doing so,

I don't care about statuses or what other people do...

But, again, for not "getting" Garegga I'm given the advice to either "wake up" or "go play something simpler" instead of having my question addressed, since I would apparently have to "pay for lessons" in order to be worth any upstanding Garegga fan's time. This sort of treatment certainly makes me even more eager to inquire further into the unending depth of this silly video game...notwithstanding, on we go...

Are you done? I've given you the reply. Let me repost it:

The rank is managed by an exponential function, it does increase and decrease by he listed actions. Playing properly for score means that you will inflate it in given point and reduce drastically in other points. Playing disregarding rank will mean that you will increase it with a lower incremental curve and lower with a lower decremental curve. In short, if you play and die normally you can reach the same point and roughly get the same difficulty. regardless of control, you will get roughly the same attacks on the last two stages. For the rest, it's 10 $ per lesson, final exam will ast 1 hour and will be a open reply written text. do you need my paypal account?

How dumb can you pretend to be? If you can point out what you don't understand, instead of acting like a victim. Then again: do you really want to understand? Do i really have to quote some of the worst comments a person can ever do, regardless of the discourse?

One thing that raises rank noticeably is gaining extends without dying.
This is the very first time I've ever heard of longevity being a rank factor in Garegga (I don't think it was in the ST, unless I missed it). I thought that this was only applicable in Bakraid, but I guess I was misinformed up till now.

Playing properly for score means that you will inflate it in given point and reduce drastically in other points. Playing disregarding rank will mean that you will increase it with a lower incremental curve and lower with a lower decremental curve.

This is the very first time I've ever heard of longevity being a rank factor in Garegga (I don't think it was in the ST, unless I missed it). I thought that this was only applicable in Bakraid, but I guess I was misinformed up till now.

Wrong, thanks Raiden for confusing things. Rank increases because of the auctions listed in the ST. Everything else is wrong.I've done and know better, sorry.

I suppose, but at least I finally got someone to address it. I probably shouldn't have even expected that much, considering my past record.

You have not to expect anything but what you get, since your understanding of games is below zero, your arrogance is abysmal and you pretend to be taken seriously without even bothering to know how things work. You have spent your whole time on this forum insisting and without learning (what makes yourself, paraphrasing one of your posts) anything of the games you play. Such stubborness is beyond redemption, also. and if this is not enough, you act like a victim.

Let's define one simple thing: if you don't understand how a game works, you will never get anywhere. As my scores are basically the best ones around, in the games i play and played, there has to be one reason - i know how to use the various engines. You don't. And you refuse to understand, you say false things, you blame ALWAYS other people.

This is not postmodern art, where you shun the world because you're a dumb kid grown up with tv. Face it, arts kid: an infinite amount or repetitions of the same bullshit will still make a bullshit.
Again ,remain as you are, i can't see a worst punishment

[Nemo]

Regarding Garegga (again)
The only thing that disheartens me about the state of gamers today is that they are unwilling to try to play a game in a different way.

Most shmups are just pick up and shoot stuff..... Go play Juno First or something.

The problem with Garegga is the fact that in order to have any hopes of clearing it you have to find some perfect median between destroying and scoring enough to survive and doing/not doing enough to keep rank down. It's like entering a forest with a million paths and only one leads to daylight. People say pretend you don't know rank exists, but there's no way you will survive past the bosses of stage 5 and the subsequent stage 6, these are the events that turn an otherwise standard shmup into a tightrope walk. I'm all for "thinking outside the box" in shmups, but when a game is so uncompromising in its execution, it becomes an exercise in unbridled frustration. Games that you mentioned like Border Down, Psyvariar, Shiki, established a different playing style which players must adpat to, but in this system, players have freedom.

Garegga is different, the freedom is suffocated, it fools you into believing it's a subjective test when every equation is objective and must be answered when and where it wants it to be. It would be like playing Dodonpachi if chaining was intertwined with survival, so you would have to effectively chain entire levels and as soon as a chain was broken you died. Shmups shouldn't be so pre-determined, it defies their appeal. That being said, I do like Garegga, but it is a flawed game.

[Shatterhand]

Then you obivously didn't "get" Garegga. You said it's a FLAWED game, it can't be! You just has to LEARN IT. LEARN IT DAMN OR NEVER LEAVE YOUR STATE OF IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY, YOUR LITTLE PIECE ON UNWORTHY SCUMBAG... do you call yourself a HUMAN? YOU ARE NOT A HUMAN, you are a just a ANIMAL, because anyone who can be considered a HUMAN can understand and enjoy Garegga. YOUR BRAIN OBVIOUSLY HAS THE SIZE OF A PEANUT. And you should be ASHAMED of your SCORE. You need to have a BETTER SCORE BEFORE TALKING TO ME, PUNK! I AM THE KING OF THE WORLD! I AM GOD, because I CAN UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY BATTLE GAREGGA COMPLETELY, but EVERY OTHER SHMUP THAT NEEDS TO DESTROY YOUR SOCIAL LIFE TO BE COMPLETELY ENJOYED and you should SHUT UP AND JUST FOLLOW ME. WHAT THE HECK you mean you are just BLOWING UP STUFF? Don't be so STUPID. SHMUPS aren't about BLOWING UP STUFF , shmups are about DEDICATING YOUR WHOLE LIFE and LEARNING HOW TO MANIPULATE A MATHEMATICAL ENGINE. Your silly PUNK!


OK, now that we all have been enlighted by the truth, we can just go home. Who is Terrypachi, by the way?

[BulletMagnet]

As my scores are basically the best ones around, in the games i play and played...

I don't care if you have the highest score on the Garegga machine atop Mount Olympus, a jerk is a jerk. I made an honest inquiry about a game (which you claim I refuse to try to unserstand), and as a reward for that I end up being beaten over the head with accusations (of all things) of arrogance, and "blaming other people" (for what, I have no idea), and having my original question largely ignored. Score as high as you please; however many games you've mastered, you're simply one of the most incredibly unpleasant people I've ever encountered. Most people wouldn't yell at a dog in the same way you've ranted at me time and time again, all over questions about a video game. And quite frankly, any dog you'd treat like this would have gone for your throat by now.

I've already gotten an answer (roundabout as it is) to my inquiry, I'm done here. But don't think for a second that once I encounter any other "issues" or whatnot with Garegga or whatever other "pet games" there are on this forum, I'm not going to voice them and try to find an explanation for them, the same as I've done here and elsewhere; when I've done nothing wrong or offensive, I'm not going to change my behavior on account of someone like yourself.

If my posting stuff like this bothers you so much and you believe that there is absolutely no hope of my ever "getting it," then avoid the topic next time. I'm sure you've got better things to do than waste time with me; perhaps you need to "get it" and let someone else address my silly questions. Methinks it would make things around here much more pleasant for everyone...if you care in the least about that sort of thing.

[Nemo]

Then you obivously didn't "get" Garegga. You said it's a FLAWED game, it can't be! You just has to LEARN IT. LEARN IT DAMN OR NEVER LEAVE YOUR STATE OF IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY, YOUR LITTLE PIECE ON UNWORTHY SCUMBAG... do you call yourself a HUMAN? YOU ARE NOT A HUMAN, you are a just a ANIMAL, because anyone who can be considered a HUMAN can understand and enjoy Garegga. YOUR BRAIN OBVIOUSLY HAS THE SIZE OF A PEANUT. And you should be ASHAMED of your SCORE. You need to have a BETTER SCORE BEFORE TALKING TO ME, PUNK! I AM THE KING OF THE WORLD! I AM GOD, because I CAN UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY BATTLE GAREGGA COMPLETELY, but EVERY OTHER SHMUP THAT NEEDS TO DESTROY YOUR SOCIAL LIFE TO BE COMPLETELY ENJOYED and you should SHUT UP AND JUST FOLLOW ME. WHAT THE HECK you mean you are just BLOWING UP STUFF? Don't be so STUPID. SHMUPS aren't about BLOWING UP STUFF , shmups are about DEDICATING YOUR WHOLE LIFE and LEARNING HOW TO MANIPULATE A MATHEMATICAL ENGINE. Your silly PUNK!

Funny Rando impression. Back to the discussion, playing Garegga is like trying to get the "ultimate" score in essentially any other shmup. There's one path to that ultimate score and wavering means you lose. This is what makes Garrega so flawed, the fact that survival is one in the same as reaching the ultimate score. Very few people ever can or have the desire to achieve the ultimate score in any shooter, and shmups aren't created with the mindset that most people will be like this.

[incognoscente]

... People say pretend you don't know rank exists, but there's no way you will survive past the bosses of stage 5 and the subsequent stage 6, these are the events that turn an otherwise standard shmup into a tightrope walk.
...

People? Which people?

Me? I can be named.

I was offering an exercise. Alternately:

Instead of asking endless questions, experiments can be performed. The understanding of the data can answer the question. If you took my suggestion as world-record playing advice, I'm sorry for you.
Clearly, rank is part of the game and must be mastered to master the game. But if a player can't even get past, for example, stage 2, then worrying about rank for stage 5 is not what he or she should be concentrating on at that moment. Controlling of rank is still something for the player to arrive at. If the player is not tired of games like Raiden or Fire Shark yet, then Garegga might not be for them. In this case, Garegga and consequently its rank is something that may be arrived at in time.


@BulletMagnet: Apologies for apparently confusing your question. I didn't mean to insult you, though perhaps some of my steps felt that way. Regardless, I can offer only apology.

[raiden]

Wrong, thanks Raiden for confusing things. Rank increases because of the auctions listed in the ST. Everything else is wrong.I've done and know better, sorry.

I was not saying that "longevity" raises rank, just gaining extends without dying. Obviously, it´s possible to survive for quite a while without gaining extends.
I haven´t achieved the phenomenon of gaining several extends in quick succession by myself, only seen it on video. But while we´re on the subject of "everything else is wrong"... may I ask how you found these things by yourself? Did you analyze the ASM code on the Garegga board? Measure bullet speeds, divided by number of shots fired in a large spreadsheet?

... People say pretend you don't know rank exists, but there's no way you will survive past the bosses of stage 5 and the subsequent stage 6

yes, there is. Before I knew about rank, I used to survive longer. As I tried to say before, caring for rank creates additional layers of challenge that can make the game more interesting, but also more difficult to handle. Trying to shoot only when necessary and evading power-ups introduces several new death opportunities to the player, which is welcome when you´re very familiar with the game, but only confusing when you´re not.

I´m not trying to say that manipulating rank doesn´t make sense, just that it´s an expert method not really that helpful for beginners, and I´m saying that because I got the impression that reading more about a game than playing it can spoil the fun pretty effectively.

[jp]

Nm

[BulletMagnet]

Apologies for apparently confusing your question. I didn't mean to insult you, though perhaps some of my steps felt that way. Regardless, I can offer only apology.

No offense taken.

[Icarus]

Score as high as you please; however many games you've mastered, you're simply one of the most incredibly unpleasant people I've ever encountered.

Haha, that is Rando on a good day Frequent this place a bit longer, and get to know him, and you'll understand why he's like that

But don't think for a second that once I encounter any other "issues" or whatnot with Garegga or whatever other "pet games" there are on this forum...

I wouldn't call Garegga a "pet game", since a pet is something that you love and loves you back. It's more like the game which only the most masochistic (sp?) of players tend to enjoy. So in that case, it's more like "the game that likes to tie you up with lots of rope and beat you with a leather whip, a two-by-four and a metal pipe".

However, most of your so-called issues with Garegga and it's ilk seem to center around rank, it's system and it's manipulation. We already argued over this the last time (in this thread I believe) so please re-read my comments. My only other advice is to actually sit down and learn to play the game. Through studious play can one develop knowledge, understanding and experience.

If my posting stuff like this bothers you so much and you believe that there is absolutely no hope of my ever "getting it," then avoid the topic next time.

To be honest, the only way you'll ever "get it" is to actually learn to play the game competently, and with a open mind. Not all games that feature 2D scrolling, features a player avatar with weapons, against small, medium and large enemies, bosses, and has powerups to pick up acts like a regular shootemup, and to approach Garegga and company like one will only see you get your ass handed to you on a regular basis.

Oh, and apologies if it seemed like I was insulting you (or anyone else) with the "play something simpler" comment, as I meant that literally. Garegga is one of the most, if not the most complex game in the genre, and playing the games which don't break all the genre conventions might be better before you're ready to attempt Garegga the way it should be played.

Erm... Rando... I understand your true high score could've have been lost in the old boards crash (Definitely, since over half of mine were), but your current Garegga score is ranked 8th out of 10.

Heheh
IIRC, Rando's actual record was an ALL, at around 14mil, with the Golden Bat. (Care to correct me, Rando?)

But while we´re on the subject of "everything else is wrong"... may I ask how you found these things by yourself? Did you analyze the ASM code on the Garegga board? Measure bullet speeds, divided by number of shots fired in a large spreadsheet?

All of the information in my ST guide is compiled by officially released information; from the leading experts in the game - Japanese Garegga masters - and from my own personal experimentation and experience with the game.

I'm still translating the guides, playing the game and writing my guide up, so it'll be more complete in the coming months.

The problem with Garegga is the fact that in order to have any hopes of clearing it you have to find some perfect median between destroying and scoring enough to survive and doing/not doing enough to keep rank down.

Well, of course. In virtually every shmup, the only hope you have of clearing the game is in the understanding of various systems in place. The examples we both listed - Border Down, Shiki, Psy etc - changed one thing but left everything else intact, so of course they would give players much more freedom.

The fact that Garegga changed everything centric to a shmup game means that you would obviously have to learn to manipulate every inherent system in order to clear the game. If you're not aiming to ALL, then why try to learn to control rank? Learn to score competently instead.

Garegga is a game that demands concentration, dedication, patience, experimentation and complete understanding. It's also a game that will highlight, magnify and punish all your playing flaws. To play Garegga anywhere near the Japanese standard (which I think a lot of us are trying to do) is to learn what your flaws are, and to quash them. If you don't have patience to learn and relearn, then Garegga will crush you, scrunch you up into a nice, tight little ball, and throw you into the trash.

[Nemo]

... People say pretend you don't know rank exists, but there's no way you will survive past the bosses of stage 5 and the subsequent stage 6, these are the events that turn an otherwise standard shmup into a tightrope walk.
...

People? Which people?

Me? I can be named.

I was offering an exercise. Alternately:

Instead of asking endless questions, experiments can be performed. The understanding of the data can answer the question. If you took my suggestion as world-record playing advice, I'm sorry for you.
Clearly, rank is part of the game and must be mastered to master the game. But if a player can't even get past, for example, stage 2, then worrying about rank for stage 5 is not what he or she should be concentrating on at that moment. Controlling of rank is still something for the player to arrive at. If the player is not tired of games like Raiden or Fire Shark yet, then Garegga might not be for them. In this case, Garegga and consequently its rank is something that may be arrived at in time.

You're not the only person I've seen make that statement, yet when the statement is made it implies the game, at the very least, can be completed while being ignorant to rank, which isn't the case. Plus, why would someone play one way initially, get good at it, then throw it out the window and do something completely different later.

... People say pretend you don't know rank exists, but there's no way you will survive past the bosses of stage 5 and the subsequent stage 6

yes, there is. Before I knew about rank, I used to survive longer. As I tried to say before, caring for rank creates additional layers of challenge that can make the game more interesting, but also more difficult to handle. Trying to shoot only when necessary and evading power-ups introduces several new death opportunities to the player, which is welcome when you´re very familiar with the game, but only confusing when you´re not.

So you're telling you've made it to the last level while being oblivious to rank (and there's no way anyone could complete the game in this manner)? Sorry if I don't believe you but playing in this manner is infinitely harder than any rank manipulation. That's why people have to resort to reducing rank in the first place, because the game becomes as close to impossible as any shmup can get by not doing it. By ignoring rank your scores would not only be higher, but there would be no need for the many, extensive "strategies" written about how to manipulate rank if the game were less challenging by ignoring it. Everything you're saying is contradictory to logic.

The problem with Garegga is the fact that in order to have any hopes of clearing it you have to find some perfect median between destroying and scoring enough to survive and doing/not doing enough to keep rank down.

The fact that Garegga changed everything centric to a shmup game means that you would obviously have to learn to manipulate every inherent system in order to clear the game. If you're not aiming to ALL, then why try to learn to control rank? Learn to score competently instead.

The inherent goal of any shmup is to clear it, that goes without saying. Even if you're playing for score, the best score can be obtained by completing the entire game. So everyone that plays the game with any sense is going for an ALL.

[BulletMagnet]

I wouldn't call Garegga a "pet game", since a pet is something that you love and loves you back.

Apparently you're not a cat owner. But few other games around here seem to cause nearly this much controversy when an issue is raised around it...it's almost as if discussing or inquiring into it is unofficially "off limits" for some reason.

To be honest, the only way you'll ever "get it" is to actually learn to play the game competently, and with a open mind.

That's why I keep asking about this stuff (despite the treatment I get each time), since, as was said on one of the older topics, specific info on this sort of thing (and in Geregga's case there's a ridiculous amount of it) isn't exactly at the fingertips of anyone outside Japan. Though apparently if I don't "get" absolutely everything (even if I haven't asked about it all) the first time around, that leads to problems for some reason...

[Icarus]

The inherent goal of any shmup is to clear it, that goes without saying. Even if you're playing for score, the best score can be obtained by completing the entire game. So everyone that plays the game with any sense is going for an ALL.

Well, not necessarily. The way I play is that I work to improve my score in all stages: an ALL is a nice end product, but not always what I achieve. In Espgaluda for example, a lot of players competing in the highscore thread have already posted ALLs, yet I myself have not managed to clear the game once, no word of a lie.

My personal record is 42mil though. When I eventually ALL (whenever that is) it'll probably be a high scoring one.

The way I play and learn a game is always centered around achieving the best possible score in all stages through refinement, therefore it takes me fucking forever to clear a game, as I'm trying to put together the best possible run, bit by bit. My methodology when it comes to learning a game is a slow, painstaking one, centered around high scoring, learning systems and tricks to maipulate them. Other players probably just go for an ALL first, then refine later.

Plus, why would someone play one way initially, get good at it, then throw it out the window and do something completely different later.

Actually, it was Clover-TAC that stated that he always played credits in different ways when he was learning a game. By doing that, you pick up on tricks, new strategies and routes that you can later bring together into an optimal strategy.

Different methodology works for different types of players, depending on how you like to learn new information (experimentation, repetition, refinement, or a combination of all of these).

That's why I keep asking about this stuff (despite the treatment I get each time), since, as was said on one of the older topics, specific info on this sort of thing (and in Geregga's case there's a ridiculous amount of it) isn't exactly at the fingertips of anyone outside Japan. Though apparently if I don't "get" absolutely everything (even if I haven't asked about it all) the first time around, that leads to problems for some reason...

Well, that's fair enough. I am trying to make this kind of information widely available to non-Japanese through the ST guide. All the basics is there, and to my knowledge, pretty complete. The stage guides come later.

The only way you'll "get it" IMO is to actually get some serious experience with the game. Reading about it only gives you knowledge; actually playing the game, being observant while you experiment with it, gives you the experience to apply that knowledge.

The best advice I can give you is to sit down with it and play it, ignorant of rank control, and observe what changes occur in-game. Then apply just one rank control method after a while, a simple one like limiting item pickups or keeping Shot power down, and observe the changes in-game. Slowly, you can start to build a strategy using both knowledge and experience. Just blindly rushing in without any kind of experience will get you killed in any game, let alone a game as complex as Garegga.

Apparently you're not a cat owner. But few other games around here seem to cause nearly this much controversy when an issue is raised around it...it's almost as if discussing or inquiring into it is unofficially "off limits" for some reason.

It probably is. Mainly because whenever anyone raises the Garegga issue on the board, it's almost certainly related to the rank system, and involves the comment "I hate Garegga because I don't understand the rank system!".

Like I said to Nemo above, I learn a game by learning it's inherent gameplay systems, and tricks to manipulate these systems. From there I use that experience to refine my stage strategies, and to push my score. I don't always register an ALL, but I do come away with a good score, and clear understanding of a gameplay system. And I have more fun doing it, even if it takes me forever to keep up with the shmup masters here