Help Please - My Poor Raiden DX Graphics

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Help Please - My Poor Raiden DX Graphics

Post by noisuf »

My Raiden DX was working fine the other day. Thought I'd bring it out of the box to have a play today and was devastated to find some of the graphics' shown in random sprite blocks.

I have tried with no difference:
- making sure the chips in mounts are secured.
- tapping all components whilst it's on to see if any tapping shows problem area.
- increasing voltage to 5.5.

However, there's difference between cold starts (even if turned off for a few minutes) and quick restarts (switch off and on straight away). But if I switch in off and back on immediately, it's a bit better but not ok. If I leave if off for a few minutes (cold start), it's back to bad again.

Hope someone can point me in the right direction...my poor Raiden DX

Cold Start
------------
Start screen, random sprites all over...take note of random sprites above "Mission Charlie".

Image

During game, apart from where the craft looks ok for that width north to south, everywhere has random sprites, including bullets.

Image


Quick Restart straight away
-------------------------------
Start screen, compare this with the cold start picture above. you can now see the arrow above "Mission Charlie".

Image

Compared to cold start above, you can the craft everywhere apart from far left and enemy bullets. Still can't see own bullets.

Image

PCB pics
----------

Image

Image
User avatar
Vexorg
Posts: 3060
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:33 am
Location: Greensboro NC

Post by Vexorg »

Does it improve if you leave it on for a while? My Raiden DX seems to have some graphics glitching to it as well, especially when it first gets turned on. I don't think mine glitches to the extent yours does tnough.
We want you, save our planet!
Xbox Live: Vexorg | The Sledgehammer - Version 2.0
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

vexorg, it was a perfectly fine pcb until today. :(

and no, unfortunately, it doesn't improve either after leaving it on.

Quick update, between the cold start and quick restart, it seems what's ok and what isn't is inversed. eg. cold start, power up blue/purple/red are ok, own craft bullets are ok. quick restart, power up blue/purple/red not ok, enemy bullets ok but own craft aren't.
User avatar
cools
Posts: 2055
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:57 pm
Location: South Wales
Contact:

Post by cools »

Are any of the chips getting warm/hot quickly?
Image
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

cools, I've just left it on for 5 minutes and no chips feel hot or out of ordinary. Some are cold, some have slight heat but none out of the ordinary.
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

I've repaired similar faults on Raiden 2 and Raiden DX boards and it's usually been down to a bad video RAM. Of course, in your case it might not be (could be one of the surface mounted customs for example) but hard to say for sure without taking a look at the board. :)
User avatar
system11
Posts: 6277
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:17 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by system11 »

1) Try flexing it (gently) - see if anything changes.
2) Check all the legs of surfce mount chips. Fiddly and long process, you need a razor blade, craft knife or similar. VERY GENTLY push each leg of surface mount chips sideways. If one moves you found the problem.
3) It's probably the sprite ram, or something between the sprite ram and graphics chips. I /think/ the sprite rams are the 4 memory chips along the back edge of the PCB. I could well be wrong.

Either way, if 1 or 2 don't cover it, you're in for some soldering.
System11's random blog, with things - and stuff!
http://blog.system11.org
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

bloodflowers wrote: 2) Check all the legs of surfce mount chips. Fiddly and long process, you need a razor blade, craft knife or similar. VERY GENTLY push each leg of surface mount chips sideways. If one moves you found the problem.
And if you don't have either of those to hand, try a small sewing needle. That's what I use a lot of the time on SMTs and it works a treat. :)

As you also say though, I concur that it's probably a RAM fault.
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Rtyper and Bloodflowers, I have an image below with circles in different colors (based on groups of chips) with unique numbers for each color. Just to help me ask questions to you and co-ordinate myself and make sure I know what you guys are referring to.

Actually, is there a schematic available for this board?

Rtyper - Is the bad video ram the same as the sprite RAM? If not, please let me know which set of chips they are or reference from a set of circles. What other RAM should I be looking at?

Bloodflowers - It's interesting you say flex it gently...it makes a noise when I do this...kinda like a soft cracking noise...even when I'm not doing it hard. Regarding surface mount chips, would I be checking all 8 of them in red? Is the sprite ram the chips circled in blue? Which chip would be the graphics chip?

General question, what are the chips circled in green? I've taken these out and put them back in to make sure they are seated well.

Thanks for everyone's help!!!

Image
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

Got to pop out in a minute so in a bit of a rush, but here's a quick rundown of some of the areas you've circled, hope I haven't made any bloopers in my hurry to get down what I can:


Red 1. Custom SEI0200
Red 2. Custom SEI360
Red 3. Sound related (ADPCM).
Red 4. Sound related (ADPCM)
Red 5. Custom SEI150
Red 6. Custom SEI1000
Red 7.
Red 8. Video RAM custom SEI252


Green 1. '5' is for the sound code, '6' is for the APDCM sound samples
Green 2. Main CPU program code
Green 3. Chars EPROM


Yellow 1. I/O Related.
Yellow 2. TTL chips for interfacing with the two large black mask ROMs below them for the background graphics
Yellow 3. Video RAM
Yellow 4.


Perhaps Bloodflowers can fill in the gaps and annotate when he has the time. Not sure when I'll be back.

Enjoy. :D



P.S. Nope, no schematic I'm afraid - wish there was!
User avatar
robivy64
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:12 pm
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Post by robivy64 »

Red 7 = NEC V30 CPU

Image
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Thanks for the understanding of the chips!

Is the blue circle the sprite RAM bloodflowers is referring to?

If so, it's yellow 3 and blue that are most likely the culprits.

How do I go about getting spares?
User avatar
rtw
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:46 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by rtw »

noisuf wrote:Thanks for the understanding of the chips!

Is the blue circle the sprite RAM bloodflowers is referring to?

If so, it's yellow 3 and blue that are most likely the culprits.

How do I go about getting spares?
You cannot get spares for the dedicated SEIBU chips unless you
take them from another PCB.

May I ask how you stored the PCB ?

Unless you find a loose pin I would start looking for a new Raiden DX instead.
http://world-of-arcades.net
The future of ST-V rests upon our work and your work
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Hi, I store the PCB inside bubble wrap within a box it was shipped in.

Is this safe?
User avatar
rtw
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:46 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by rtw »

noisuf wrote:Hi, I store the PCB inside bubble wrap within a box it was shipped in.

Is this safe?
What's the colour of your bubble wrap ? Pink is antistatic and is the prefrerred one. Another alternative is antistatic PCB bags.

Do you play on a CAB or a supergun ?
http://world-of-arcades.net
The future of ST-V rests upon our work and your work
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

noisuf wrote:Thanks for the understanding of the chips!

Is the blue circle the sprite RAM bloodflowers is referring to?

If so, it's yellow 3 and blue that are most likely the culprits.
Yellow 3 is the sprite RAM if memory serves. Off the top of my head I forget what the blue area RAM is for, but it's worth noting that the two RAMs immediately to the right of Red 1 are the RAM for the background tiles.
How do I go about getting spares?
Where are you based?
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

Tell you what, give me an hour or two (ie let me wake up first) and I'll dig out my Raiden II PCB (pretty much the same as your Raiden DX) - I'll then go over that and verify the findings so far.

How does that sound?
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Oh, it's just the normal clear stuff. I'd better try and get some pc motherboard like bags then.

rtype, no problems at all, thanks for your help. however, it sounds like the best i can do is check the surface mount chips' legs as I won't be able to replace them.
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

noisuf wrote: rtype, no problems at all, thanks for your help. however, it sounds like the best i can do is check the surface mount chips' legs as I won't be able to replace them.
Do be careful if you have a go at that - only try and move them gently, and if any do move (or are obviously loose/disconnected from the solder pad) don't switch the board back on until you have separated them again; because if you are unlucky enough to have shorted a +5 volt pin against a data or address pin (or Ground) you're going to do some damage.

Regarding obtaining RAM chips - where are you based?
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

Okay, here's a revised list of the functions of the various chips:

Red 1. Custom SEI0200 (related to Green 3)
Red 2. Custom SEI360 (assorted functions)
Red 3. Sound related (ADPCM).
Red 4. Sound related (ADPCM)
Red 5. Custom SEI150 (Sound related)
Red 6. Custom SEI1000
Red 7. NEC V30 CPU
Red 8. Custom SEI252 (Sprite related)


Green 1. '5' is for the sound code, '6' is for the APDCM sound samples
Green 2. Main CPU program code
Green 3. Chars EPROM (ie text are assorted graphics plus scrolling (if removed))


Yellow 1. I/O Related.
Yellow 2. TTL chips for interfacing with the two large black mask ROMs below them for the background graphics
Yellow 3. Sprite RAM (the fourth RAM at the top edge of the yellow ellipse is sound RAM)
Yellow 4. Sprite related

Blue area. Program RAM

In addition to all that, just to the right of Green 1 are two other RAM chips, these are for the colour data

Also, the two RAMs immediately to the right of Red 1 are the RAM for the background tiles and the larger intro animations (ie to do with Green 3).
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Hi Rtyper, thanks for providing all the info.

I'm unfortunately based far far from everyone, in Australia.

No excuse really, I should have got some anti static bags instead of normal bubble wrap.

Cheers,

Michael.
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

That's a pity - isn't there anyone local to you who could repair the board? Seems a shame to let it go to waste due to a fault. I'm in the UK and a few other game board repairers are in the US, but there aren't that many of us about.

Might be worth your while to sell the faulty board on Ebay and buy a working one.
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

I've actually gotten lucky where there is someone in a local arcade forum that is willing to give me a hand. Will let you all know the outcome and what the problem was...assuming we can fix it...fingers crossed.
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

Okay, good to hear that it's going to get a second chance. :D
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Well, no guarantees but there's always hope... Hopefully, I give you all some good news and let you know what went wrong.
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Well, no guarantees but there's always hope... Hopefully, I give you all some good news and let you know what went wrong.
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

Yesterday, I visited the person who was very kind enough to give me assistance. He had all the gear, oscilloscope, test system, chip readers, etc.

Very interesting experience as we weren't able to rectify but things that he did made the situation better...then worse throughout the day. He still has the board as he wanted to think it over. He suspects the Red 8 custom which is going to be dead board basically. I'll try to summarise things done (and results) to see what you guys might recommend trying further.

1) He checked signals (by putting signal through or is it shorting?) of the Yellow 3, Yellow 4, Blue, chips to the right of Green 1, above Yellow 4. He did it by checking these against their respective data sheets. Some weird things were found like no signal coming from some legs of the bottom Yellow 3 chip but they didn't look like they were going anywhere.

2) Bottom 3 chips of Yellow 3 removed, checked in chip reader to be ok. Turned on the board and problem sprites were missing from the screen (ie. nothing was there) so he was confident issue was around that area. Chips put back in.

3) Chip above Yellow 4 next to the C on the PCB, removed, checked in chip reader, replaced with another chip.

4) Checking signals (by putting signal through or is it shorting?) regularly froze the board.

5) Took out ROMs 5 and 6 and checked against MAME codes. I've suggested maybe to check 1H, 2H, 3H and 4H ROMs since they are the program ROMs?

6) He sprayed freezing solution on Red 8 and other chips to see if any erratic behaviour resulted. It did when it was sprayed on Red 8. Situation got worse than original.

7) Putting signals through the chips in Yellow 3 would affect the problems sprites as in it would make it better or worse. But the chips were ok.

8) He used non conductive material to to press the legs of the Red 8 chip to see if it affected it. It didn't.

9) He did much more but I couldn't understand or keep up. He was so kind in spending over 5 hours on it. Did other stuff like checking the connections between the Yellow 3 chip legs and the Red 8 chip via multimeter.

10) Why would putting signals through Yellow 4 make the board repeatedly freeze when they're sprite related? I would have thought this would have happened if it was done to the chips in Blue?

11) Apart from asking him to check the 1H, 2H, 3H and 4H Program Code ROMs, I stiill need to let him know I thought of something overnight. I noticed a rattle noise, I shook the board and heard it coming from around the area of the 1H, 2H, 3H and 4H CPU Program ROMs. When I took out the chips, I tried shaking and the noises disappeared. When I put the ROMs back in, the noise reappeared. Not sure if it means anyything.

Thanks for any help or suggestions!!!

Cheers,

Michael.
noisuf
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:42 am

Post by noisuf »

I have been told my board is fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

I'll let you guys know what the problem was when he lets me know!
User avatar
Vexorg
Posts: 3060
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:33 am
Location: Greensboro NC

Post by Vexorg »

I would be especially interested in finding this out since as I mentioned above my Raiden DX was showing similar symptoms, although to a much lesser extent.
We want you, save our planet!
Xbox Live: Vexorg | The Sledgehammer - Version 2.0
User avatar
IronGiant
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:30 pm
Location: UK

Post by IronGiant »

noisuf wrote: 10) Why would putting signals through Yellow 4 make the board repeatedly freeze when they're sprite related? I would have thought this would have happened if it was done to the chips in Blue?
The chips in Yellow 4 probably handle other data too besides that for the sprites, namely code to be executed.

Good to hear it's been fixed at last, would be curious to know where the fault was. :)
Post Reply