What makes Seimetsu better than Sanwa?

Kanin · Post by **Kanin** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:20 pm

I currently have a Sanwa JLF but I'm starting to get bored of fighting games now and I tend to play more Shmups. I was wondering if it would be worth it to swap out my JLF for a LS32-01?

I hear people saying they are the best for shmups but I don't understand why. Something about shorter throw, but no one explained it to me in layman terms. How does "throw" affect gameplay?

Sorry if this has been asked before, I did search for "sanwa" and "seimetsu" but I didn't find out what I needed to know.

poodude · Post by **poodude** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:58 am

Throw means the distance from the center resting position to the point it engages the micro switch. You want a shorter throw for shmups so you can make many small precise movements when you are weaving through bullet hell. This is not so good in a fighter style game when you are trying to create a combo, and accidentally hit the wrong direction, etc.

oxoid · Post by **oxoid** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:51 am

That's engage, throw is the distance between neutral and the edge of the restrictor plate.

LS-32 has a shorter engage, shorter throw and stiffer spring.

Gives you quicker response, less "dead area" between engage and throw, and the stiffer spring lets it snap back to neutral faster when flicking the stick to dodge tight bullet patterns.

corbie · Post by **corbie** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:22 am

While the LS-32 isn't quite as "smooth" as the Sanwa JLF, it's responsiveness more than makes up for it when it comes to shooters. I was hesitant about changing out my Sanwa JLF on my Egret 2 but once I did I was glad I went with the LS-32.

Post by **system11** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:11 am

It's pretty simple - every Sanwa I've used has been a horrible, way too loose, feels like stirring a bucket of springs. Seimitsu /must/ be better by virtue of not being Sanwa.

(but a Suzo 500 is still the best shmup stick that exists, /if/ it will fit in your cab)

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:29 am

Contrary to beliefs, a better stick doesn't make a better player. It just makes you feel more awesome.

Post by **system11** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:11 pm

True, but a substandard stick can certainly make people play worse. Try loosening your car steering wheel and see if it makes you a worse driver.

Might be best to try that at a local airfield or Park & Ride

P_HAT · Post by **P_HAT** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:32 pm

I wonder, how many jp top-players use sanwa.

also, is there a place in this universe where you can buy Suzo 500?

Post by **system11** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:03 pm

I'd guess most JP players use whatever is installed in the cab by the arcade.

Suzo 500 is easily available all over the place, but as I say - it's a tricky fit, really designed for metal panels, and needs a slightly larger than normal hole.

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:41 pm

The stiffer spring and shorter throw make it a must for me.

kemical · Post by **kemical** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:03 pm

seimitsu have slightly larger, nice feeling buttons! ps-14-g ....word!

I also wonder about the arcade cab thing, dont most CP's come stocked with Sanwa for the newer cabinets? I always get the impression seimitsu must have been the top choice back in the 80's and early 90's..

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:32 pm

Will Suzo 500's mount in an EGRET II without a fuzz? After seeing a clip on YouTube of the 500 in action, I'm intrigued.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:40 pm

emphatic wrote:Will Suzo 500's mount in an EGRET II without a fuzz? After seeing a clip on YouTube of the 500 in action, I'm intrigued.

probably have to modify the mounting hardware and possibly make the 24 mm joystick hole slightly larger

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:42 pm

jonny5 wrote:
emphatic wrote:Will Suzo 500's mount in an EGRET II without a fuzz? After seeing a clip on YouTube of the 500 in action, I'm intrigued.
probably have to modify the mounting hardware and possibly make the 24 mm joystick hole slightly larger

Hmm. A larger hole would be a pain. But I saw a clip of someone modding the stick with either a Sanwa or Seimitsu pin/stick. Perhaps that would work... I've asked in another forum as well, I'll report back here with my findings in case this'd be of help to someone here.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:45 pm

looking forward to hearing if this is feasible with little work

Post by **system11** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:29 pm

Might just end up making a mess of the panel and the stick, the big problem for most applications is the raised dome just under the stick - that's what needs the larger hole. Of course you could get hold of a trash CP from somewhere, cut a giant section out and replace it with sheet metal, and build + decorate yourself. That way it's easy to put back again.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:15 pm

If I do buy one of these, you'll have some photos of any progress of installing them where I now have Seimitsu LS-32's, complete with needed work. If it's at all doable.

Post by **system11** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:00 pm

http://www.system11.org/temp/stc_full.png

Maybe that pic will help you get an idea of their fitting shape.

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:00 pm

Kanin wrote:I currently have a Sanwa JLF but I'm starting to get bored of fighting games now and I tend to play more Shmups. I was wondering if it would be worth it to swap out my JLF for a LS32-01?

I forgot to mention that I prefer the LS-32 for fighters as well. They are much better for charge characters, but I do just fine with circular motions as well (although for those the Sanwa just feels a little nicer).

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:27 pm

oxoid wrote:That's engage, throw is the distance between neutral and the edge of the restrictor plate.

[...]

Is there a consensus on the definition of throw? All measurements I've seen (distance or angle) have been from a point of origin (centre) where neutral != centre...

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:54 pm

j^aws wrote:
oxoid wrote:That's engage, throw is the distance between neutral and the edge of the restrictor plate.

[...]
Is there a consensus on the definition of throw? All measurements I've seen (distance or angle) have been from a point of origin (centre) where neutral != centre...

I was bugging 'em to add it to the jargon file on the front page, but apparently nobody thought it was important enough to add. It is mentioned in the discussion though.

brokenhalo · Post by **brokenhalo** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:07 pm

j^aws wrote:
oxoid wrote:That's engage, throw is the distance between neutral and the edge of the restrictor plate.

[...]
Is there a consensus on the definition of throw? All measurements I've seen (distance or angle) have been from a point of origin (centre) where neutral != centre...

oxoid has it right. engage is the point where you actually trip the microswitch. the stick can still keep traveling in the same direction after it trips the microswitch, until it reaches the gate. throw is the measurement of travel from neutral to gate.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:07 pm

@Ed Oscuro:

Yeah, IIRC, you mentioned something in that thread. It helps in discussion if we are all on the same page...

@brokenhalo:

There is no right or wrong. It's a simple A+B=C equation; you can label these variables whatever you want...

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:40 pm

Here is a link to an earlier discussion on "throw":

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 717#158717

... There was a table with many attributes for joysticks, but the link seems broken now. Kowals table I believe...

Basically: Throw was discussed as *maximum* travel, i.e. from centre to restrictor, not neutral to restrictor. This makes more sense for measuring angles and distances...

brokenhalo · Post by **brokenhalo** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:12 am

j^aws wrote: i.e. from centre to restrictor, not neutral to restrictor.

center and neutral are the same thing, at least the way i understand it.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:14 am

Damocles swears by the Ultimarc Mag Stick. It suppose to have a tight return and a very short throw compared to Happ, Sanwa and Seimitsu. Im thinking of getting one soon to find out.

http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:35 am

brokenhalo wrote:
j^aws wrote: i.e. from centre to restrictor, not neutral to restrictor.
center and neutral are the same thing, at least the way i understand it.

Imagine the area formed by the deadzone as you move the stick around. For arguments sake, lets say it's more or less a shape of a square...

If you move the stick just outside this square area, the stick enages a direction (aka engaing the microswitch; or whatever switching mechanism the stick uses to register this as a digital input). So, everything outside this square shaped deadzone, inputs are registered... Now if you move the stick just back into this square shaped deadzone, the input that is registered is "neutral". Any stick movement in this deadzone area is neutral.

If you move the stick to the exact centre of this square deadzone area, then that is obviously "centre", but the input is still registered as "neutral".

If you let go of the stick and let it rest naturally, then some sticks don't even rest at this "centre"; they sit loosely around this point...

The terms "centre" and "neutral", especially when measurements are involved, are not really the same...

brokenhalo · Post by **brokenhalo** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:20 pm

^^^^ gotcha. we're on the same page now

LuckyDay · Post by **LuckyDay** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:02 pm

Hey guys, two sites to add to the discussion:

Definitions and explanations on joysticks, restrictors, throw, engage, etc.:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/restrictors.html

And a good comparison chart of all of the Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks and gates:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4286/beztytuuco8.gif

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:14 pm

LuckyDay wrote:Hey guys, two sites to add to the discussion:

Definitions and explanations on joysticks, restrictors, throw, engage, etc.:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/restrictors.html

I dunno what to think of that site; it seems to get auto-linked to any thread on joysticks... And I'm convinced it's a collection of forum posts, designed to confuse the internet! ;P

LuckyDay wrote: And a good comparison chart of all of the Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks and gates:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4286/beztytuuco8.gif

That looks like Kowals table, mentioned earlier...?

What makes Seimetsu better than Sanwa?

What makes Seimetsu better than Sanwa?

Re: What makes Seimetsu better than Sanwa?