What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[NYN]

-Alisa- Developer's Cut Demo Version. Played through, I found it creepily charming. Obvious pastiche to th 96 beginning, with own variations. All in pre-render, poly-monster, bad-voice acting flavour. Tank control a bit uncomfortable while analog mantatory. Makes me want more "new" games from that paticular age. Weird and nice. Thinking about getting this full.

[XoPachi]

I'm trying again, to play Powered Gear because I feel like I'm supposed to like these games and this one is most up my alley in terms of presentation but it is not happening. Like I can't with these games.

No matter how much I try them I cannot get into beat em ups. I've tried so many of these games for the last 10 years and they just do not click with me. Anytime I play anything in the genre be it Knights of the Round, Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Fight'n Rage, whatever, I would just much rather be playing Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta 1.

[Sima Tuna]

Maybe it's the pseudo-3d belt you don't enjoy. Have you tried Ninja Saviors?

[null1024]

Libble Rabble.
I'm a bit out of practice, since I've not played in a few months. I really need to get better at entering the treasure rooms, I keep missing too many of the little dudes.

It is dramatically more enjoyable now that I've cobbled together a controller for it and other twin-stick games, even if it's just a pair of JLFs with some buttons.
I actually ended up mostly using it for Groove Coaster, but Robotron and Smash TV and the lot get a fair bit of play with it, and although it's not good for Virtual On, it can play it.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I'm trying again, to play Powered Gear because I feel like I'm supposed to like these games and this one is most up my alley in terms of presentation but it is not happening. Like I can't with these games.

No matter how much I try them I cannot get into beat em ups. I've tried so many of these games for the last 10 years and they just do not click with me. Anytime I play anything in the genre be it Knights of the Round, Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Fight'n Rage, whatever, I would just much rather be playing Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta 1.

That is probably one of the hardest games in the genre to get into. Its difficulty is completely through the roof, even significantly moreso than Final Fight, unless you make use of exploits (which might trivialize the game too far in the other direction). It has amazing presentation but I don't think I could ever recommend it to someone looking to get into the genre.

The games that got me to fully dive into the genre were Final Fight and Alien vs. Predator, with Streets of Rage 4 really grabbing me years later (though Fight 'N Rage might be better than that one, I'm not sure). FF has some of the genre's best enemy design, AvP has its most invigorating and kinetic movement, and SoR4 and Fight 'N Rage kind of nail both strengths, in different ways. Character action used to be my singular favorite genre but brawlers have been doing a lot to dethrone it these last few years. But they do have their weak points and limitations; it's understandable if they don't grab you in the same way 3D action stuff does despite their density. What in particular turns you off about them?

[SuperDeadite]

I'm trying again, to play Powered Gear because I feel like I'm supposed to like these games and this one is most up my alley in terms of presentation but it is not happening. Like I can't with these games.

No matter how much I try them I cannot get into beat em ups. I've tried so many of these games for the last 10 years and they just do not click with me. Anytime I play anything in the genre be it Knights of the Round, Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Fight'n Rage, whatever, I would just much rather be playing Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta 1.

I hear you. I like these games with friends, but playing alone gets rather boring fast. Final Fight 1 is a landmark title, but it goes on for far too long.

I tend to enjoy the stranger games better. If you want to try a different take on this genre, give Duel Savior Justice a try. There is a full English translation patch available too, and the story gets better and better the farther you get.

[Sumez]

That's funny because I couldn't get into Bayonetta at all, it just feels exceptionally bloated *and* stretched out. I find arcade beat'em ups way more enjoyable.

I'd suggest playing TNWA as Ninja though. It's not a "belt scroller", but it nails the genre in every other way, that game is just a must-play if you enjoy well designed action games at all

[XoPachi]

Maybe it's the pseudo-3d belt you don't enjoy. Have you tried Ninja Saviors?

I cleared it with Ninja and Yaksha but I wasn't really crazy for it beyond it's presentation. I know it's not a beat em up but when it comes to sidescrolling melee combat, my go to is Mega Man Zero 3.
I don't really know what puts me off about beat em ups but it's the same TV static I feel in my head when I play fighters which is why I stopped trying with those years back.

[XoPachi]

I'm playing Sin and Punishment and platformers really did a lot to seriously harm the perception of autoscrolling. An autoscrolling 3D run n gun like S&P is thoroughly brilliant. I think this game is only held back by the hardware. Aiming with sticks is objectively garbage compared to gyro, mouse, or IR aiming. This game does a lot to circumvent those limitations and make it fun so it's not all bad. And I get that the idea is for you to have optimized routes through heavy replay and mastery so you can preemptively have your cursor on incoming threats. But I would rather just have fluid aiming. And the dips in framerate put lulls in the action which is unfortunate.

But the autoscrolling nature of a game where you are grounded makes for _deep_ gameplay and incredible level design though. It REALLY makes this standout as a highly innovative title. I prefer Star Successor for the technical upgrades, but I really think going for free flight was a mistake. There were already games doing that long before it and SP1 is the only one of it's kind managing that balance successfully to my knowledge. 3D autoscroll innovations just kind of...ended here. If I could play this with KB/M at a rock solid 60fps, this would be far and away the best rail shooter ever (would probably need a hard mode to compensate though).

[Sumez]

platformers really did a lot to seriously harm the perception of autoscrolling. An autoscrolling 3D run n gun like S&P is thoroughly brilliant.

You're on a shoot'em up forum, so, yeah.
Autoscrollers are really bad when they inhibit your progress, especially when you just end up sitting around waiting for the screen to scroll. But I can't really think of any game built around always autoscrolling that is any bad for it. And that includes platformers, such as Chelnov or Horror Story, both super fun games.
Meanwhile, every autoscroller in Power Blade 2 (at least half the game) is absolutely awful.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

platformers really did a lot to seriously harm the perception of autoscrolling. An autoscrolling 3D run n gun like S&P is thoroughly brilliant.

At best, autoscroller sections in platformers are inoffensive. Mega Man 4, Cossack Stage 3? It's pretty harmless. Micro Mages? Yeah, the gimmick actually works pretty well. It'd still be a fun game without it as it's the tight platforming controls that make it work. At worst though, they're awful, and there's plenty examples of bad autoscrolling segments (not to mention bad shmup segments within action platformers). I don't think anyone in the gaming industry has ever claimed them to be influential in any way though. For all its faults, the mainstream gaming industry can tell the difference between a shmup and an autoscrolling section in a platformer.

[Sumez]

Micro Mages? Yeah, the gimmick actually works pretty well. It'd still be a fun game without it as it's the tight platforming controls that make it work.

Fwiw I think Micro Mages would be a lot *better* with more autoscrolling.the game slows nearly to a halt when you're at the bottom of the screen, which is so lenient it completely removes any of the pressure that the forced scrolling was supposed to add.

[AGermanArtist]

I'm working through my backlog and I'm currently on level 15 of Devil May Cry 5 on PS5. I've never understood the praise this series and indeed this game receives. It's not terrible, but there's no flow. The staccato nature of progression gets on my nerves, frankly. Ninja Gaiden, particularly its sequel is the superior experience. Once complete, I may try another difficulty.
Next - Super Mario Odyssey

[XoPachi]

At best, autoscroller sections in platformers are inoffensive. Mega Man 4, Cossack Stage 3? It's pretty harmless. Micro Mages? Yeah, the gimmick actually works pretty well. It'd still be a fun game without it as it's the tight platforming controls that make it work. At worst though, they're awful, and there's plenty examples of bad autoscrolling segments (not to mention bad shmup segments within action platformers). I don't think anyone in the gaming industry has ever claimed them to be influential in any way though. For all its faults, the mainstream gaming industry can tell the difference between a shmup and an autoscrolling section in a platformer.

In my experience, aside from "waah they're impossibru!!!" the autoscroll is what turns a lot of players off from this genre. I can only imagine for many it's because of more mainstream platformers putting them through god awful segments and it just puts a stigma on the design philosophy in general.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Fwiw I think Micro Mages would be a lot *better* with more autoscrolling.

It's intended as a multiplayer game; the default difficulty is fine and is balanced well to provide a good experience to a wide audience. Sure, more aggressive autoscrolling would make for a more hardcore singleplayer experience, but that's not the game they wanted to create.

and it just puts a stigma on the design philosophy in general.

I've never seen anyone refer to an autoscrolling gimmick in a platformer as a reason why shmups as a genre are bad. Ever. Can you provide an example of this happening in a game review?

[XoPachi]

I've never seen anyone refer to an autoscrolling gimmick in a platformer as a reason why shmups as a genre are bad. Ever. Can you provide an example of this happening in a game review?

I'm not talking about publications. Just when I have gone to discuss this genre beyond this forum in my life, that's a complaint I've gotten. No one I've spoken to has explicitly said "autoscrollers in platformers made me hate them in STG's". That wasn't what I was trying to imply. Just the nature of the genre being autoscrolling is off putting to folks and I think it's because more mainstream games (Sonic/Mario/etc) doing it badly has put some people off in general to autoscrolling titles.

[Sumez]

There's definitely some hate for autoscrollers in games that aren't normally autoscrolling. But yeah I've never in my life seen anyone even consider that argument against shoot'em ups

[Steven]

So just play Out Zone, FixEight, and Kaitei Daisensou and call it good?

It's a silly thing to complain about anyway because if you take the background graphics away from most STGs the games would barely change at all, and the only real change would be that some games would benefit from increased bullet visibility (that's you, USAAF Mustang! Still love you even if I can't see anything in like a third of the stages, though). Whether they scroll or not doesn't actually matter at all. People are fuckin' weird sometimes. Most likely including me

[Sumez]

Made-up strawmen are especially weird

[Bassa-Bassa]

It's a silly thing to complain about anyway because if you take the background graphics away from most STGs the games would barely change at all, and the only real change would be that some games would benefit from increased bullet visibility (that's you, USAAF Mustang! Still love you even if I can't see anything in like a third of the stages, though). Whether they scroll or not doesn't actually matter at all. People are fuckin' weird sometimes. Most likely including me

Autoscrolling [complaints] have nothing to do with background graphics in actuality, but with if you can control or not the enemies/obstacles' appearance.

[Steven]

It's a silly thing to complain about anyway because if you take the background graphics away from most STGs the games would barely change at all, and the only real change would be that some games would benefit from increased bullet visibility (that's you, USAAF Mustang! Still love you even if I can't see anything in like a third of the stages, though). Whether they scroll or not doesn't actually matter at all. People are fuckin' weird sometimes. Most likely including me

Autoscrolling [complaints] have nothing to do with background graphics in actuality, but with if you can control or not the enemies/obstacles' appearance.

So Metroid is an autoscrolling game because it has enemies that spawn infinitely that you have no control over? Of course not; that would be ridiculous. I would consider an autoscrolling game to be one in which forwards progression is mandatory because the screen will push you if you stop moving, occasionally stopping for bosses or similar things. Yeah, Horror Story lets you stop scrolling, but under normal circumstances it forces you to move outside of bosses. I don't know if Horror Story kills the player for holding the down input for too long, but I imagine it does something about it.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I would consider an autoscrolling game to be one in which forwards progression is mandatory because the screen will push you if you stop moving, occasionally stopping for bosses or similar things.

That's what I'm actually saying as well - the screen will push you... towards new enemies/obstacles. Whether if the backgroud is plain black or full of graphics which scroll with the screen is not relevant in this regard, and that's why I don't think that's the reason the people complain about autoscrolling as you seem to imply:

It's a silly thing to complain about anyway because if you take the background graphics away from most STGs the games would barely change at all,

Whether they scroll or not doesn't actually matter at all. People are fuckin' weird sometimes

[Steven]

I have no idea what I'm even talking about anymore. Horror Story doesn't let you stop the scrolling by holding down. I think. I need to go the fuck to sleep already so I can stop saying stupid shit.

[evil_ash_xero]

I was playing Berwick Saga, until I got overly frustrated.

I find the "die, and they're dead for good" aspect of these Fire Emblem type titles a thing that makes them very compelling. But if the difficulty gets out of hand, the
frustration goes to the next level. I don't know if I'll ever return to Thracia. Jesus Christ.

At least Berwick lets you save every five turns, but the weapons breaking all the time is driving me nuts. I'm always broke.

Funny enough, I've gone to playing bullet hell games to relax from it.

[XoPachi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phWzxuNxAxs

[Marc]

Lots of Dead Cells. I'm a bit puzzled it doesn't get more love here. Yes it's randomized, but the levels are built from bespoke chunks, and it plays beautifully. It's like SOTN, where simply navigating the world is a joy, and through weapons are a great big toybox.
The CV expansion is icing on a bloody brilliant cake.

[ryu]

Lots of Dead Cells. I'm a bit puzzled it doesn't get more love here. Yes it's randomized, but the levels are built from bespoke chunks, and it plays beautifully. It's like SOTN, where simply navigating the world is a joy, and through weapons are a great big toybox.
The CV expansion is icing on a bloody brilliant cake.

I played it years ago when it was released on Switch cartridges. Great one, but I put it aside after my first clear to make room for other games.

[guigui]

Seconding the fact that Dead Cells is great. Developper constantly adds contents since release, all quality, and not that expensive.
The overall result may seem like an overwhelming game to people just starting it though, hard to tell what is the core game now.

I always suggest playing with custom mode, enabling you to select which weapons will actually during the game. This breaks the total randomness of the weapon pool which is huge, good if you like to play a precise style.

[Sumez]

Gave Dead Cells a good spin around 5-6 years ago now, and didn't see the appeal at all. It felt very derivative and typical of all those "roguelites" that have flooded the indie market the past many years.

[guigui]

Dead Cells sure is totally in the roguelite wave category. Though I'd say it is a good one, where getting good actually matters, and now with lots of customisation possible.

Main character design is a flaw to me though ; and I must say I prefer Hades for its very neat presentation and atmosphere. But still, Dead Cells developpers definitely deserve attention for being among the 1st ones to surf the roguelike wave, and maintaining it for so long since (and being French !)