Shmups have become stale - former shmup lover - for devs

[Arvandor]

There goes any sort of credibility you might have had.

Amount of shmups played or certain types of shmups has no relevance to whether something is true or not.

Yeah, having lack of information doesn't have any relevance to forming an informed opinion. Oh wait

He also never responded to me saying he probably hasn't played Battle Garegga either. Which addresses many of the issues he has with the genre (interactivity with the game). Unfortunately, much of what there is to Garegga is hidden from anyone who hasn't done research on the game.

[captpain]

He also never responded to me saying he probably hasn't played Battle Garegga either. Which addresses many of the issues he has with the genre (interactivity with the game). Unfortunately, much of what there is to Garegga is hidden from anyone who hasn't done research on the game.

That's the problem with people like the OP (and in the event that he's trolling, the reviewers who write exactly like him)

They barge into the genre, thinking they have the solutions to its perceived problems, but really they just don't have the patience or careful eye that shmups require.

[mrtie]

Thread tl;dr, but let me put this in an evolutionary perspective. I will liken game genres to "species", and individual games to individuals within a species.

All current game genres, descended from a common ancestor "Pong"

Nope the first video game was a shmup...

Behold spacewar! built in 1962.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacewar!

Everything else I pretty much agree with.

Or if you want to be nit picky then Computerspace(another shooter) is the first video arcade game. I'd say we are still coming out with highly refined and fun idea after 40+ years.

[freddiebamboo]

Amount of shmups played or certain types of shmups has no relevance to whether something is true or not.

Yeah, having lack of information doesn't have any relevance to forming an informed opinion. Oh wait

He also never responded to me saying he probably hasn't played Battle Garegga either. Which addresses many of the issues he has with the genre (interactivity with the game). Unfortunately, much of what there is to Garegga is hidden from anyone who hasn't done research on the game.

Did you not hear? He only plays the good ones

The guy is probably chilling with VP1 and Starforce, for all a shmupper's needs.

[Arvandor]

I'm thinking more along the lines of Ikaruga, Gradius V, Chaos Field, Castle Shikigami 2, Raiden 3...

Do we see the trend? ^_^ Of course I could be wrong, but if w00ts hasn't played any Japanese shooters, is it any wonder why he thinks the genre is stale?

[MR_Soren]

Unfortunately my post is completely lost on you...

Ah that must be it. I'm not intelligent enough to understand you.

Most of what I wanted to say was already said by others. As such, I'm going to take a guess at your situation:

You've enjoyed shmups in the past as a visceral experience. Seeing cool enemies and killing them with awesome weapons was enjoyable. You likely credit-fed through games for the enjoyment of playing through them, and were never interested in mastering the games or any specific gameplay or scoring techniques.

If that's the case, that's fine. We all like games for different reasons. The style of gameplay I described above is well-suited to console-only shmups like Axelay, but games like that have mostly died off. (The upcoming Thunderforce VI might be something you'd enjoy.) Modern shmups typically take an arcade style approach with focus on challenging the player and accumulating points in some complicated scoring system. This appeals to players who try for the 1CC and players who play for score, but the ones who just want to blast through a game and be wowed by the experience are often disappointed and/or never fully grasp the gameplay mechanics. (I had to play Progear an obscene number of times before I started to get it.) I think people who want that visceral experience are playing other genres like FPS now.

It sounds like you want to see somebody develop a game that would draw some FPS gamers back into shmups. That's probably quite difficult. Shmup developers stopped targeting that section of gamers a while ago because it probably wasn't profitable, and developing a shmup that catered to bringing those gamers back would likely alienate current shmup fans. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's probably more difficult than you realize. I think the ideas you've posted in this thread would alienate the current shmup fanbase, but you've been encouraged to prove us wrong.


You cited Ikaruga a lot in your earlier posts. As others have stated, it's not universally liked here. I have great respect for the elegance of the game's design and I find it enjoyable to play for survival, but I like many other shmups more. It sounds like Ikaruga is one of the few recent shmups you've played. If so, you've missed most shmups from the past ten years, and your experience with one or two games should not be applied to the entire genre.


Anyway, people have suggested good games to try and pointed you in the right direction to help make your ideas into a game. Take these people seriously. You might stumble upon something you really enjoy.

[Ed Oscuro]

The guy is probably chilling with VP1 and Starforce, for all a shmupper's needs.

DADADA duh-duh DADADA

i agree with this guy 100%, shmups need more bling and zombie Bing Crosby voiceovers. In fact they should remake The Legend of Sleepy Hollow as a shmup.

Just imagine it. Flying yoru SU-27 "Flanker" inbetween waves of flaming pumpkins.

Sounds like Scramble, and that's a good thing.

p.s. I also agree with mrtie's last post 100%

[freddiebamboo]

p.s. I also agree with mrtie's last post 100%

Best post in the thread

[Chi_Ryu]

All current game genres, descended from a common ancestor "Pong".

Yeah, Pong was really influential in the development of adventure games, right? And it's certainly the granddaddy of turn-based strategy games. The parallels between Pong and Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training are clear, too. :p

Seriously, Pong is not the only ancestor of modern video games. Most modern games have as much to do with Pong as the waxen wings of Icarus have to do with modern fighter planes.

Pong was itself a derivative of "Tennis" on the Magnavox Odyssey (Atari even settled out of court on that one). There's also William Higginbotham's "Tennis for Two" in 1958, and Steve Russell (et al)'s "Spacewar!" in 1962 (MUCH more influential to shmups). And Dungeons & Dragons in '74 had an equally large impact (as did a large plethora of other non-digital games).

[iatneH]

Yeah, Pong was really influential in the development of adventure games, right? And it's certainly the granddaddy of turn-based strategy games. The parallels between Pong and Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training are clear, too. :p

Seriously, Pong is not the only ancestor of modern video games. Most modern games have as much to do with Pong as the waxen wings of Icarus have to do with modern fighter planes.

Pong was itself a derivative of "Tennis" on the Magnavox Odyssey (Atari even settled out of court on that one). There's also William Higginbotham's "Tennis for Two" in 1958, and Steve Russell (et al)'s "Spacewar!" in 1962 (MUCH more influential to shmups). And Dungeons & Dragons in '74 had an equally large impact (as did a large plethora of other non-digital games).

I stand corrected on the issue of Pong, but perhaps you missed the evolutionary point which was the meat of my post. Speciation as a result of many generations of gradual change, and a few lucky large changes that happened to land near other local optima in the domain of all possible video games. Unsuccessful genres died instantly, slightly successful genres became supplanted by more successful genres.

Although you are well correct that a fully functional fighter jet could not have been constructed via gradual modifications starting from a heap of scrap metal, and so video games as well are created from human engineering. However, it is still shifts in genres that I am aiming at here. E.g. someone took an old school shooter and mutated it by adding more bullets - people liked it, so developers kept adding more bullets and people liked it even more so here we are today.
In contrast, some developers add lifebars - people don't like it, so there is no shift in the genre because the mutant is not successful in propagating its kind.

ANYWAY, I've been thinking too hard about it and wasting too much time giving a serious response to what is basically a nerd rage from OP...

[Acid King]

Sure you could play or chain differently but there were a few "optimum" ways to play a level and once you knew those there wasn't anything else, the chaining system had no real tangible rewards that were fun and engaging.

I really doubt you "know" any optimal routes for any shooters. It takes a lot of learning and development of skill to "solve" that game and play any even remotely "optimum" routes. Plenty more time than you've obviously put in to the game.

The reason people like you complain about shooters being stagnant or not being innovative enough is that you're looking at them from the wrong angle. They're not about beating the game and seeing a dramatic ending. Like fighting games, they're about developing skill, getting good and engaging in competition with other players. That's what makes them rewarding, that's why so many people love them and that's why they are still alive in arcades in Japan. The fact that one of your complaints is that shooter devs focus on gameplay ("Many devs... seem focus on highly constrained and unimaginative gameplay") proves that these games are not for you, and you're just trying to turn them in to something they're not. They're probably the most highly refined genre in existence and you're shitting on them, like so many do, because of that. Your complaint is essentially that they're too refined for Halo Q. Mainstream, so they need to be changed to accomadate invalid complaints.

[Danbo]

Danbo, my n1gga! Whats crackin'?

im good, postin in a troll thread idk who you are

[spadgy]

spadgy: the reason we don't talk about ikaruga is because it's 8 years old what's left to talk about? the daifukkatsu thread is 30+ pages long, and look how many scores have been submitted for that game...

Of course.

What I was trying to say, in a overly convoluted way, was w00ts, if he or she still exists, need to let go of Ikaruga and open their mind to more than an over-emphasised title.

Must learn to be more bri...

[the2bears]

In fact they should remake The Legend of Sleepy Hollow as a shmup.

That just might work...

Bill

[Ed Oscuro]

In fact they should remake The Legend of Sleepy Hollow as a shmup.

That just might work...

Bill

High five!

oh wait you just get a pumpkin to the noggin

[Ed Oscuro]

p.s. I also agree with mrtie's last post 100%

Best post in the thread :D

It's a quote bug actually, if you hit "quote" on his thread you can read the whole thing.

It's just another post, nothing too special, just wanted to call attention to it s'all.

[brokenhalo]

thread needs more "what if" posts.

what if there was a shmup that was based on cooking mama? instead of a wave cannon, your ship could have a giant spoon beam and the boss would be a bowl of cake batter. and to beat the boss you would have to maneuver your ship back and forth to mix the batter while dodging batter splatter. then you could have a cool hour long cut scene of the cake baking. then the cake would come out of the oven, but it would be pissed. and now you would have a frosting gun and candle missiles and you would have to decorate the cake while dodging curtain fire. then a birthday party cut scene. then you unlock another food, maybe pizza, and do the same thing again.

don't you guys steal this. this game is going to make me rich.

[Ed Oscuro]

spoony beams

[jpj]

Must learn to be more bri...

i can't tell if you're making a joke, or if it's just another one of your typos...

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

thread needs more "what if" posts.

what if there was a shmup that was based on cooking mama? instead of a wave cannon, your ship could have a giant spoon beam and the boss would be a bowl of cake batter. and to beat the boss you would have to maneuver your ship back and forth to mix the batter while dodging batter splatter. then you could have a cool hour long cut scene of the cake baking. then the cake would come out of the oven, but it would be pissed. and now you would have a frosting gun and candle missiles and you would have to decorate the cake while dodging curtain fire. then a birthday party cut scene. then you unlock another food, maybe pizza, and do the same thing again.

don't you guys steal this. this game is going to make me rich.

Replace all the ingredients with feces and we're set.

[Twiddle]

I'm not going to trivialize the discussion like an arrogant elitist by calling the topic starter a troll. Please continue, w00ts.

committed fan of ignorant shit posts^

committed to being a jerk^

i'm a jerk who's always right

[Never_Scurred]

committed fan of ignorant shit posts^

committed to being a jerk^

i'm a jerk who's always right

committed to love^

[Twiddle]

[doctorx0079]

Also, Aegis Wing on X360 (and similar bland, ill-thought out Western-developed crap) will kill the shooting game genre much faster than anything that comes out of Japan.

That review was just awesome.

I just watched it again. I love the way he says, "Bear trap! Stupid game."

[dai jou bu]

Unreal Tournament has gotten stale since 2003. I really liked it when they were messing around with the melee system in Championship II, but apparently nobody else did. Also, Halo was lame; Gears of War was not because it was essentially a third-person Time Crisis game.

Everyone needs to stop copying Blizzard's RTS formula already. Jeez.

Trusty Bell reminds me why I don't care about JRPGS anymore.

Neverwinter Nights was just a slower-paced Diablo (and Diablo II drove me to the brink of insanity if I tried to finish Act II) and it was PRETTY ANNOYING GETTING HIT BY RANDOM TRAPS IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A ROGUE TO SPOT THEM.

---

Shmups are no different. The masses like Cave because there's something about danmaku that appeals to them (a novelty which has overstayed its welcome for me if it doesn't do anything like Ikaruga was able to); that or they're probably the only programmers that didn't die or stopped making shmups like Konami (for a long while), Irem, or Taito did.

In other words, go play Mars Matrix.

[pixelcorps]

this thread is like someone saying a 3 piece punk band needs a DJ, synthesizers and a maybe female diva backing vocals...

[joeboto]

In other words, go play Mars Matrix.

GIGAWINE!

[Zaarock]

blahblah

reminds me a little of the game captain tomaday, which is pretty awesome

[Zweihander]

I'm admittedly a huge douchebag and even I find this guy to be a fuckhead.

Though I do agree on Ikaruga; inferior in every way to Radiant Silvergun... except perhaps soundtrack.

[spadgy]

Must learn to be more bri...

i can't tell if you're making a joke, or if it's just another one of your typos...

It was a joke... a bad one... I know as a journalist I should never make typos here, but I sub so many articles a day I just can't face too much time doing the same here.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not that bad on the typos front... am I?