Shmups have become stale - former shmup lover - for devs

[Elixir]

I used to play a lot of shmups (only the good ones)

Stopped reading there.

[Danbo]

saying shmups are dying is basically turning up to a funeral and telling everyone the guy might be dying as the coffin is buried

edit : actually it's more like turning up 5 years after the funeral

edit2 : actually 5 years is probably not enough

edit3 : 10 is more like it

[Arvandor]

I have trouble believing someone with the name "w00ts" isn't just trolling us

"w00ts"

I'm surprised it wasn't called sooner, in all honesty. Can we attribute that to a lack of experience with trolls around here? =)

But... I like feeding trolls, so

right now shmups have extremely limited interactivity of just the float and fire variety, I'm not saying moving and firing is bad, I'm saying there has to be more decisions besides just those, the kinds of decisions and options you have for interacting with enemies and environment, and even the object/ship/plane itself in different ways are very limited.

Sounds like someone has never played Battle Garegga. That game addresses most of the issues in the above paragraph, I think.

[jochen]

My english is to limited so I try to be short about this theme:

with shmups it is similar to sex. Most people know that they like
and want it again and again, maybe with a little bit of variation.

Variation could mean new partner and in this thread a new
shmup. For me a game like borderdown is great because
it plays similar to the shmups of the 90´s - but with the
sound and graphic of today.

So - normally I prefer my shmups as simple as they can be.

Thinking about great changes in the shmup-formula - the only
games I know is "Twinkle Star Sprites" - combining puzzle-games
and shmups.



Jochen.

[sven666]

oh man.. i wouldnt wanna play shmups like i have my sex.. too hard to grip the joystick with rubbergloves and all that vaseline

[spadgy]

I would go with a candy-cab in stilettos stood on my scrotum while I play, but I find getting the stockings on it so frustrating I always loose the urge...

[RGC]

I like choaniki

[LaserGun]

Needs more bald space marines and 4 minute cutscenes after every popcorn enemy wave and sub-boss you kill.

[D]

shmups are shmups
fighting games are fighting games
racing games are racing games
puzzle games are puzzle games.

These are called genres. One should not try to be too creative with the genre. If you want to create a unique game do it, but usually these genres should stick to their formula. Every shmups has different aspects, but I see these differences mostly as gimmicks. The shmup genre has been burried a long time ago, yet it just won't die.
You seem to be the kind of person that would make a really bad shmup and be bitter about the bad reviews you would get. There is nothing wrong with shmups. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Same with other mentioned genres. I personally never play anything for score, but I am about the challenge to complete.

What has motivated you to post here?

[Observer]

...and 40 minutes cutscenes after every over-resistant enemy wave and sub-boss you kill while you can get 5000 achievements including "kill the first enemy", "credit-feed the game" and "press start button", plus you would have to download all the other ships and purchase all the other weapons online with real money.

Fixed.

[LaserGun]

What has motivated you to post here?

It's a troll lol

Anyway I just came up with some more ideas on how to spice up the genre.

- Music select screen where you can plug your iPod into the cab and rock out to Fall Out Boy or Timbaland!
- Several multiple paths throughout each level, each accompanied by their own cutscene.
- This is the next-gen and TATE is soooooo 1970's so let's put everything on a HD monitor, also remove the score display, no one cares about that.
- QTEs, we need them, just imagine you're fighting a boss, dodging each bullet perfectly then the camera rolls around and displays your ship and the boss in glorious 3D! Then you have to follow a QTE mini-game to inflict damage and dodge curtain fire.
- At random points of the game a -WARNING- message appears on the screen, the normal joystick controls are then rolled back into the cab with a steering wheel replacing them, you then have to dodge the most hellacious curtain fire with the wheel.
- Random crap that you don't expect just to keep you on your toes, like a random popcorn enemy firing out the fastest and most biggest suicide bullet you've ever seen.
- Backtracking, ever wanted to play your favorite level in reverse?
- Next-gen controls, analogue ship control and handheld gun peripheral for XTREME precision.
- Multiple endings, I mean like 10 different ones, collect them all!
- Save points, simply insert a memory card into the cab to save then you can resume a potentially high scoring run whenever you want.
- bettur grafix

[Taylor]

The unfortunate thing about this thread is that, troll or otherwise, the ideals of the original post are echoed by the reviewers and certain developers themselves, particularly the western ones, leading to many bitter threads and the derogative term “Euroshmup.”

People who don’t play the hardcore shmups or really have a passion for them but ignorantly see it as a simple genre to assess (up, down, left, right, shoot) and consequently see faults or gaps that aren’t really there. Game length, difficulty, scoring systems, weapons, story, no replay value, no vague innovation, etc.

Developers set about improving these and suddenly you get hideous things like inertia, a shallow score systems based multipliers, stages that go on forever, thousands of weapons, lifebars instead of lives, dull bullet patterns and uninspired level design focused around the same waves of enemies repeated as the last one leaves.

I was going to qualify the above by launching a quote campaign against the original post but every single line, except where he’s reiterating a previous point, requires some form of rebuttal. It’s all shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the genre works and, likewise, how far other genres have actually evolved themselves.

The entire thing seems to have the tone that, given the chance as a designer, he could do things so much better because of his amazing thought process nobody in the field of shmup design has. But all the ideas he brings forwards are both lame and vague.

[RGC]

The presence of a Shopenhauer quotation screams 'Icycalm condescends to test our faith':P

[moozooh]

w00ts, just curious, what are your thoughts on Hammerfall? To me, it sounds like exactly what you're looking for.

Unfortunately, games like this don't belong to shmups anymore. Also, Axelay is a pretty banal retro-type "shoot things for score" with coherent atmosphere and presentation values (which I attribute to Konami in general), and UN Squadron is rather mediocre. I've looped Axelay many times as a kid, but it doesn't even compare to the fun and adrenalin boost I'm having from a single DoDonPachi session.

[Kiken]

- This is the next-gen and TATE is soooooo 1970's so let's put everything on a HD monitor,
- Backtracking, ever wanted to play your favorite level in reverse?

See 1942 Joint Strike.

- Next-gen controls, analogue ship control and handheld gun peripheral for XTREME precision.

See the Wii version of Karous with WiiMote wagling for Sword use.

[OmniGLH]

- Next-gen controls, analogue ship control and handheld gun peripheral for XTREME precision.

See the Wii version of Karous with WiiMote wagling for Sword use.

Seriously!?!
This is why the Wii gets its criticism. Tacking on motion controls where it is not necessary.
Games built ground up utilizing motion controls = ok
Tacking on controls on games previously released = fail
(exceptions are Okami and RE4.. hmmm Capcom?)


Ever play 'To The Earth' on the NES? It was a light gun shooter kind of..

[D]

- At random points of the game a -WARNING- message appears on the screen, the normal joystick controls are then rolled back into the cab with a steering wheel replacing them, you then have to dodge the most hellacious curtain fire with the wheel.

omg, This is so funny! A sequel to Turbo Force would do this scheme justice.

[spadgy]

Turbo Force!? Theres an arcade flyer I'd put in stockings!

EDIT: Taylor knows what his on about - you listen to him woots!

People who don’t play the hardcore shmups or really have a passion for them but ignorantly see it as a simple genre to assess (up, down, left, right, shoot) and consequently see faults or gaps that aren’t really there. Game length, difficulty, scoring systems, weapons, story, no replay value, no vague innovation, etc.

It’s all shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the genre works and, likewise, how far other genres have actually evolved themselves.

[honorless]

I don't like Ikaruga. Why does everyone think it's so special? I really want to play a 2D shooter where you can transform into a mech like the ships in Macross Frontier. I can't believe someone hasn't done this yet! Shooters are so stale wtf

If you don't like Ikaruga, that's cool. I'm not that fond of it either. But don't ignore shooters for a while and insist that they're stale, then ignore games that have tried your ideas.

why can't your plane grow arms (mecha) and toss enemies into other enemies?

Trigger Heart Exelica?

try air-melee

Try Senkou no Ronde. (...but wouldn't air-melee be "a fighting game in the air" instead of "a shooter"?)

The problem with shmups is that the experience of the game itself is not that enjoyable, the art, the music, the fine tuning of the bad guy animations, etc...

Personal taste. You prefer non-memorizers with relatively sterile design. Your secret dream is for someone to just make a 2D Macross Frontier shmup already. Unfortunately for you, the things you like are no longer in vogue. That doesn't mean that the genre's progress has halted.

Good thing that new games don't obstruct you from playing your old favorites, or finding "new" shooters that suit your tastes among the thousands of existing games out there.

[w00ts]

If you don't like Ikaruga, that's cool. I'm not that fond of it either. But don't ignore shooters for a while and insist that they're stale, then ignore games that have tried your ideas.

That was the worst paraphrasing I have ever seen, you just garbled my words beyond all comprehension. I like ikaruga in small doses, my problem with Ikaruga is it signals a huge dearth of imagination in the people who develop and the people who like those kinds of shmups "the super hardcore".

try air-melee

Try Senkou no Ronde. (...but wouldn't air-melee be "a fighting game in the air" instead of "a shooter"?)

My point was having more things one is able to do in the game and up the amount of things you can do (possibility space), it is not any one specific thing, since when you are designing a real game your prototype and iterate to see if it "works" and whether or not you can tune it an work on it to get it to where you want it to be in terms of fun and interactivity.

The problem with shmups is that the experience of the game itself is not that enjoyable, the art, the music, the fine tuning of the bad guy animations, etc...

Personal taste. You prefer non-memorizers with relatively sterile design. Your secret dream is for someone to just make a 2D Macross Frontier shmup already. Unfortunately for you, the things you like are no longer in vogue. That doesn't mean that the genre's progress has halted.

I used macross just as an example because it has lots of shmuppy elements in it as well as exploring the possibility space of things that are done in movies / anime / etc with those machines.

Good thing that new games don't obstruct you from playing your old favorites, or finding "new" shooters that suit your tastes among the thousands of existing games out there.

No doubt... but we as shmup people should be wanting to be widening the genre enough so that we can get serious shmups made on the level of Gradius V and Ikaruga.

It's one thing to hoard fun to our little group of shmuppy people, but it constrains the genre and the ideas, and that is how genres die out... when the fans become too single minded and hostile to any idea that doesn't represent their oldschool pure ideal of what a shmup should be.

[MathU]

I'm not going to trivialize the discussion like an arrogant elitist by calling the topic starter a troll. Please continue, w00ts.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

It's just you...

[E. Randy Dupre]

The genre died for a reason - it never evolved and understood that absorbing a persons attention is the issue in shmups, and dodging + firing are highly limiting gameplay choices when it comes to shmups,

The clue's in the name.

Ikaruga was the genre's last tired breath of uninspired rehashes, shmup fans flocked to ikaruga, and even I did, I was so psyched when they anounced ikaruga for the Gamecube back then, but I was sorely disappointed... I couldn't believe how lacking in good design the game was and it was more a puzzle game then a full fledged video game. I enjoy ikaruga, but the game itself symbolizes why shmups died out - the developers of shmups lost touch with anything outside the religion of previous shmups.

And that's one of the funniest bits of self-contradiction I've seen in some time.

[Kaspal]

i bet he doesnt really bother to play shmups at all... i mean, c'mon!... he's been given hints of where to look for more "original" ideas that have been churned out lately, and he didnt even bother.

i dont play ikaruga for score, and i love it.
i try to play DDP (DOJ) and it keeps handing me my ass back, and i still LOVE IT.
ESPGaluda, Gradius V and Mushi on the PS2 are the ones i've been playin the most lately, and even tho they are "yet another games i need to shoot and dodge", they keep me commin back for more...

now, i preffer to play those, to play UNScuad a thousand times... evn tho, i play the latter on the PSP with the CPS1 emu... but i fire up Progear or Dimahoo (and now Guwange) more ofthen that the former. now, i wonder why's that?... maybe i feel like they do have evolved some, and since they have new things to offer, i feel the urge to play them, and leave the oldies behind, just for when i need some "classic shmuppin" fix?.

dont take me wrong dude, but please, STHU and GTFO.... your opinion its pretty much biased, if you ask me.

[gray117]

whhhhaaat ? ....

The serious part:

Just for conversation; generalising is aweful ...

Similarly vague comments about specific games are useless...

If anyone has any specific comments and gameplay mechanic ideas send them - in a plotted and constructed fashion - to a delveloper who might be interested - if its any good you can be sure they'll rip it off

Lastly, let a developers do their work. If they are happy doing what they're doing, and if they continue doing it, the chances are they're finding an audience.

The silly part:

I like shmups. More shmups but different is good. Anything else I'll give it a go too.

[spadgy]

What's odd, w00t's, is you keep sighting Ikaruga as if it's the most highly regarded shmup here.

Sure a lot of us here love it, but it's certainly not one of the most talked about by the shmup community, and there are so many other shooters played more, discussed more, with more active hi score tables.

In fact, a lot of us here greet the game with a sneer, and rather often it's jokingly referred to as the shmup the misinformed, mindless modern gamer and the mainstream press highlight as the essential shooter. In other words, it get's a little to much attention by the very people who know a little less than they'd like to.

It's sighted as the beginning of the new wave, the end of the genre, a wor of genius and a waste of time, but it's just one more shmup, and there's plenty more that deserve the attention.

Have a look around. Ask some friendly questions, keep an open mind, be hopeful, ignore Ikaruga and GV for a bit, and you might find just what you're after.

[jpj]

i would like to see you take motorherps advice. if you're programming skills aren't gonna do your ideas justice, then learn partner up with someone who is good at programming. in fact most game development works that way (conceptual, programming, and art design by separate people/teams). get wii ware. get XNA. go make your game build it and they will come, an' all that shizznazz.

spadgy: the reason we don't talk about ikaruga is because it's 8 years old what's left to talk about? the daifukkatsu thread is 30+ pages long, and look how many scores have been submitted for that game...

lastly: ikaruga was a bit of an odd example to choose. who deemed that that every game needs to create something new? ikaruga is much more about ditching a lot of the old archaic shmup formula to create a simple elegant game.

[Icarus]

"the super hardcore"

Bear in mind the regular patrons of this forum fit that category, and you should see that you're preaching to the wrong people.

Also, Aegis Wing on X360 (and similar bland, ill-thought out Western-developed crap) will kill the shooting game genre much faster than anything that comes out of Japan.

[LSU]

W00ts, I couldn't disagree more with your posts. Constrained, minimalistic gameplay is a major part of what makes these games so appealing. I cannot imagine what, say, Mushihimesama would have been like if we'd have been able to freely roam around the environment in all directions and interact with scenery, land and walk around on the ground, perhaps even hide behind trees to snipe at enemies as they pass by so you can pick up their dropped weaponry to upgrade your own... Well, it may have been an interesting experiment, but it would not be a shmup any more and I am fairly sure that I would not find it any where near so enjoyable. The "simple", constrained game mechanics and reliable replayability are precisely what make it so great. The depth comes from the way the levels are designed to take advantage of the game's "basic" rules.

However, I do admit that we should all be open to new ideas and that the genre probably does have to evolve in some way if it is to survive in the long-term - beyond having just a handful of titles released year after year by the same few companies.

[honorless]

My point was having more things one is able to do in the game and up the amount of things you can do (possibility space)

And my point is that developers are experimenting with methods of control aside from "press button and move", and game actions other than dodging and firing. But you are either a.) unaware of their actions, or b.) dismissive of them because they are not "different" enough/are things you don't find fun.

Which is fine.

But claiming that those experiments—Otomedius's touch screen, THE's enemy-tossing, ESPGaluda II's weird bullet-spawning player-controlled slowdown, Shoot the Bullet's mandatory pacifism, et cetera—don't exist or don't count is misinformed. They may not be successful; they may not be what you want, but they are there.

That was the worst paraphrasing I have ever seen, you just garbled my words beyond all comprehension.

The words in the original post were already garbled and largely beyond comprehension. If I were you, I'd think hard about your EXACT points (I'm still not 100% sure of what they are) and condense that rambling stream of consciousness into a post that expresses them precisely.

My "paraphrasing" was just poking fun. (welcome to the forum lol.)