To be honest I've not really gotten "into" a modern shmup since Rayforce.
I don't like manics, I like pattern memorization shmups with cool bosses that throw many different attacks at you.
results: Top 25 Shmups of All Time (through 2004)
-
Dartagnan1083
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:49 pm
- Location: Escaping to the Freedom
As with older and newer shmups...I just like it if it's well designed.
The problem is that shmups from both eras can miss their mark.
Older shmups can be one of the many that pushed the genre into obscurity, or they can be a bit archaic. (Gorf, centipede, Curse, ect)
Newer ones can just miss the point and not quite understand what made the genre awesome (Einhander, Galaga: Destination Earth).
It's all a mixed bag, which is why so many must do so well consistantly.
The problem is that shmups from both eras can miss their mark.
Older shmups can be one of the many that pushed the genre into obscurity, or they can be a bit archaic. (Gorf, centipede, Curse, ect)
Newer ones can just miss the point and not quite understand what made the genre awesome (Einhander, Galaga: Destination Earth).
It's all a mixed bag, which is why so many must do so well consistantly.
currently collecting a crapload of coasters, carts, controllers, and consoles
Track my "Progress"
Track my "Progress"
By request.
(Note that this is slightly different from what I previously posted in the voting discussion thread -- you'll note a few people voted for Gyruss and Tempest anyway...and probably some typos on the ones that didn't get too much attention.)
COMPLETE LISTING BY SCORE
COMPLETE ALPHABETICAL LISTING
LIST OF SYNONYMS
(Note that this is slightly different from what I previously posted in the voting discussion thread -- you'll note a few people voted for Gyruss and Tempest anyway...and probably some typos on the ones that didn't get too much attention.)
COMPLETE LISTING BY SCORE
Code: Select all
----------
1 DoDonPachi 6.568559
2 Ikaruga 5.855908
3 Gradius V 5.126351
4 Radiant Silvergun 4.893514
5 Gunbird 2 4.43905
6 Thunder Force III 4.259719
7 Mars Matrix 4.181302
8 Soukyugurentai 4.097829
9 Gradius Gaiden 3.901352
10 Layer Section 3.867706
11 R-Type 3.742677
12 Shikigami no Shiro 2 3.647369
13 DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou 3.567258
14 Strikers 1945 II 3.545442
15 ESPGaluda 3.511844
16 Batsugun 3.509655
17 Donpachi 3.508673
18 Armed Police Batrider 3.443831
19 Giga Wing 3.428024
20 Raiden DX 3.300977
21 ESPrade 3.112334
22 Thunder Force IV 3.075781
23 Thunder Force V 3.070708
24 Einhander 3.015546
25 R-Type Delta 2.831857
----------
End Top 25
----------
Zanac (NES) 2.816921
Guwange 2.766357
Galaga 2.678305
Soldier Blade 2.654213
Battle Garegga 2.585453
Border Down 2.474192
Zero Gunner 2 2.449921
Dangun Feveron 2.43113
Gradius II Gofer no Yabo 2.411608
Musha Aleste 2.365787
Lords of Thunder 2.263025
Giga Wing 2 2.219128
Darius Gaiden 2.187859
G Darius 2.146079
Axelay 2.016025
Sengoku Blade 2.004783
Gate of Thunder 1.969736
Life Force (NES) 1.855781
Cyvern 1.758186
Gradius 1.757514
Blazing Star 1.752357
Salamander 1.741275
Zanac Neo 1.738247
19XX: The War Against Destiny 1.710756
Dimahoo 1.70346
Blazing Lazers 1.696876
Raiden II 1.651093
Dragon Blaze 1.647865
Recca 1.631863
Gaiares 1.600148
Parsec 47 1.559041
Super Aleste 1.554778
Raiden Fighters Jet 1.546647
Gradius III (SNES) 1.540906
U.N. Squadron (SNES) 1.53847
Imperishable Night 1.471923
Sexy Parodius 1.468588
Strikers 1945 1.457818
Ketsui 1.444008
Battle Bakraid 1.421729
-----------------------
End Honourable Mentions
-----------------------
Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius 1.375805
Hellfire 1.366885
Progear no Arashi 1.344779
R-Type III 1.322695
Tumiki Fighters 1.321425
Perfect Cherry Blossom 1.308474
Gokujyo Parodius 1.299418
Cho Ren Sha 68k 1.283012
Super Star Soldier 1.201072
Raiden 1.18163
R-Type II 1.174457
Shienryu 1.155958
Space Manbow 1.137187
Warning Forever 1.10817
rRootage 1.012399
radio zonde 1.002864
Galaga '88 0.9903176
Last Resort 0.9486179
Psyvariar 2 0.9419991
Parodius Da! 0.9258012
Aleste 2 0.9005024
Harmful Park 0.8910371
Battle Squadron 0.8764087
Pulstar 0.8601606
Twinkle Star Sprites 0.8394428
Gunnac 0.8221457
Power Strike II 0.8178554
Nexzr 0.8173832
Side Arms 0.8083994
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie 0.8030348
Strikers 1945 III 0.798595
Gynoug 0.7962351
Raiden Fighters 2 0.7957363
Twin Cobra 0.7744253
Sonic Wings Special 0.7717724
NOIZ2SA 0.7707324
Psyvariar Revision 0.7613016
Outzone 0.761202
Aleste / Power Strike 0.7374959
Salamander 2 0.7370815
Gunbird 0.7255157
1943 0.7216583
Gradius Galaxies 0.7202111
Apidya 0.6800641
RayStorm 0.6799077
Viewpoint 0.6736205
Truxton 0.6658565
Elemental Master 0.6466249
Image Fight 0.6377332
Xevious 0.6325178
Dragon Breed 0.6096122
Beamrider 0.5978928
Mushihimesama 0.5899291
Spriggan 0.5861987
Defender 0.5749301
Bio Hazard Battle 0.572549
Forgotten Worlds 0.5701447
Gley Lancer 0.5556208
Raiden Fighters 0.5539405
Star Soldier (Gamecube) 0.5501031
Metal Black 0.546447
Gradius 2 (MSX) 0.5432542
Vasara 2 0.5425462
In The Hunt 0.5386116
Pop'n Twinbee 0.5369649
Fire Shark 0.5334699
Hyper Duel 0.5308302
Judgement Silversword 0.5124535
1942 0.5015139
Crisis Force 0.4867621
Air Zonk 0.4645637
Cotton Boomerang 0.450062
Mahou Daisakusen 0.4350078
Sengoku Ace 0.4327051
Xexex 0.4217692
Robo Aleste 0.4181905
Flying Shark 0.4134817
Guardian Force 0.4112209
Game Tengoku 0.4108267
Twinbee 0.4074734
Dragon Spirit 0.3996913
R-Type Leo 0.39966
Mr. Heli no Daibouken 0.3986897
UN Squadron (arcade) 0.3985469
Strikers 1945 Plus 0.3896203
R-Type Final 0.3774682
Cotton 2 0.3708447
Psyvariar: Medium Unit 0.3678111
Thunder Force II 0.365503
Rally Raid 0.3641681
Parodius 0.3593426
Final Soldier 0.3570948
Viper Phase 1 0.3567186
Android Assault 0.3563274
Cyberd 0.3504278
Salamander (MSX) 0.3469123
Fantasy Zone 0.3402092
Sky Shark 0.3361244
Gyruss 0.3176305
Shippu Mahou Daisakusen 0.3142955
Sanxion 0.3025642
Disposable Hero 0.3025642
Astro Flash (a.k.a Transformer) 0.2876309
Aeroblasters 0.2816531
Hellsinker 0.2725782
Project X Special Edition 0.2653434
Silk Worm 0.2635424
Super Laydock (MSX) 0.2621757
Andro Dunos 0.2474835
Tempest 3000 0.2436877
Embodiment of Scarlet Devil 0.2427092
Uridium 0.2427092
1941: Counter Attack 0.242593
Truxton 2 0.2387849
Gunsmoke 0.2380696
Moreo Twinbee 0.2380696
Thunder Force AC 0.2346363
Score Soldier -Winter Festival 2004 0.2296903
daioh 0.224234
Cotton 0.224234
Z-Out 0.2237926
Twin Cobra II (Arcades) 0.2235735
Super Spacefortress Macross/Chou-Jikuu Yousai Macross (Arcades)
0.2235735
Baryon (PC) 0.2235735
Carrier Airwing (Arcades) 0.2235735
Vasara 0.2202846
exerion 0.2189155
Fren-zE 0.2169055
Delta (C64) 0.2147232
Thunder Cross 0.2147232
Gigandes 0.2147232
Aero Fighters 3 0.2113147
Bike Banditz 0.2112412
Cloudphobia 0.2103363
GG Aleste 2 0.2074821
Shikigami no Shiro 0.2070459
Astrorock 2000 0.2070459
Space Bomber 0.2070459
Tyrian 0.2065538
Magical Chase 0.2048677
GG Aleste 0.2037367
Twinbee Yahho 0.2037367
Rayxanber III 0.2023448
Uridium 2 0.2010811
Twin Hawk 0.2003597
heavy unit 0.1979543
Alpha Mission 2 0.1945129
Strahl 0.193375
Samidare 0.1912772
Hype 0.1900794
Override 0.1896273
W-Ring 0.1896273
1944: The Loop Master 0.1888319
Galaga Arrangement 0.184531
Darius Force 0.184531
Gradius 4 0.1809066
Macross 2036 0.1793222
Image Fight II 0.1793222
Spriggan Mark 2 0.1793222
Sol Feace 0.1793222
Ray Crisis 0.1788359
Hybris (Amiga) 0.1774392
(Super) Laydock 2 (MSX) 0.1774392
Galaxian 0.1748971
Detana Twinbee 0.1694038
Darius 0.1694038
Darius 2 0.1671888
geometry wars 0.1657064
Swiv 0.1647919
Star Force 0.1647919
Aero Fighters 2 0.1631175
Star Parodia 0.1623491
Solar Striker 0.1623491
Scramble 0.1619805
Abbadox 0.1616217
Space Invaders 0.1590626
Space War 0.1590626
Chaos Field (DC/GC) 0.156255
Atomic Robo Kid (Amiga actually...) 0.156255
Abadox 0.1547868
Xenon 2 Megablast 0.1536812
Banshee 0.1536812
X2 No Relief 0.1536812
Agony 0.1536812
Katakis 0.1536812
Air Ra De (Christmas) 0.1516928
Sentimental Shooting (hentai) 0.1503495
Raptor: Call of the Shadows 0.1401637
Aldynes (PCE) 0.1385527
Eliminate Down (MD) 0.1385527
Battle Formula (NES) 0.1385527
BioMetal 8.797371E-02
airwolf also called skywolf (arcade) 6.216163E-02
Cybattler 6.119676E-02
Coryoon 3.546393E-02
tokyo (arcade) 2.740424E-02Code: Select all
Omake! Alpha-sorted List!
(Super) Laydock 2 (MSX) 1 0.0212766
1941: Counter Attack 1 5.399568E-02
1942 2.16 0.1053381
1943 4 9.108319E-02
1944: The Loop Master 1 2.699784E-02
19XX: The War Against Destiny 8 0.3164695
Abadox 1 9.90099E-03
Abbadox 1 1.333333E-02
Aero Fighters 2 1 1.408451E-02
Aero Fighters 3 1 3.828829E-02
Aeroblasters 1.5776 3.443226E-02
Agony 1 9.345794E-03
Air Ra De (Christmas) 1 8.347246E-03
Air Zonk 2.7056 4.977426E-02
airwolf also called skywolf (arcade) 0.16 2.036364E-02
Aldynes (PCE) 0.5776 0.0304
Aleste / Power Strike 4 9.903653E-02
Aleste 2 4 0.1808955
Alpha Mission 2 1 2.985075E-02
Andro Dunos 1 5.645161E-02
Android Assault 1 0.1111111
Apidya 3 0.1380255
Armed Police Batrider 13.712 0.7993429
Astro Flash (a.k.a Transformer) 1 0.0766129
Astrorock 2000 1 3.614458E-02
Atomic Robo Kid (Amiga actually...) 1 0.0106383
Axelay 9.824058 0.3460439
Banshee 1 9.345794E-03
Baryon (PC) 1 4.444445E-02
Batsugun 14.04 0.8101507
Battle Bakraid 7 0.2391558
Battle Formula (NES) 0.5776 0.0304
Battle Garegga 12.1936 0.4712743
Battle Squadron 4 0.1687961
Beamrider 3 9.676053E-02
Bike Banditz 1 3.825137E-02
Bio Hazard Battle 3 8.403331E-02
BioMetal 0.5184 9.015652E-03
Blazing Lazers 9 0.241669
Blazing Star 8 0.3373609
Border Down 9.8656 0.5733098
Carrier Airwing (Arcades) 1 4.444445E-02
Chaos Field (DC/GC) 1 0.0106383
Cho Ren Sha 68k 7 0.1694943
Cloudphobia 1 3.779698E-02
Coryoon 0.16 6.956521E-03
Cotton 1 4.477612E-02
Cotton 2 2 5.057121E-02
Cotton Boomerang 2 9.035274E-02
Crisis Force 2.5776 6.960417E-02
Cybattler 0.1936 0.0176
Cyberd 2 0.0403182
Cyvern 6.892857 0.4153859
daioh 1 4.477612E-02
Dangun Feveron 12.5184 0.3717449
Darius 1 1.724138E-02
Darius 2 1 1.612903E-02
Darius Force 1 2.483801E-02
Darius Gaiden 10.7056 0.3725411
Defender 3 8.522907E-02
Delta (C64) 1 0.04
Detana Twinbee 1 1.724138E-02
Dimahoo 8.712 0.2645107
Disposable Hero 1 8.411215E-02
DoDonPachi 23.95206 1.673941
DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou 15.63846 0.7306538
Donpachi 16.59846 0.6361165
Dragon Blaze 7.892857 0.2921544
Dragon Breed 3 0.1026458
Dragon Spirit 2 6.505747E-02
Einhander 15 0.4969007
Elemental Master 3 0.1212329
Eliminate Down (MD) 0.5776 0.0304
Embodiment of Scarlet Devil 1 5.405405E-02
ESPGaluda 16.27686 0.6595232
ESPrade 14.64486 0.5695953
exerion 1 4.210526E-02
Fantasy Zone 2 0.0351866
Final Soldier 1.892857 5.093379E-02
Fire Shark 2 0.1322387
Flying Shark 2 7.198276E-02
Forgotten Worlds 3 8.282594E-02
Fren-zE 1 4.109589E-02
G Darius 10 0.3994205
Gaiares 7.16 0.3179018
Galaga 11.384 0.5728182
Galaga '88 4.16 0.2151463
Galaga Arrangement 1 2.483801E-02
Galaxian 1 0.02
Game Tengoku 2 7.064944E-02
Gate of Thunder 9 0.3786946
geometry wars 1 1.538462E-02
GG Aleste 1 3.448276E-02
GG Aleste 2 1 3.636364E-02
Giga Wing 16.1936 0.6230774
Giga Wing 2 9.6784 0.4579188
Gigandes 1 0.04
Gley Lancer 2.5776 0.1041838
Gokujyo Parodius 7 0.1777332
Gradius 8.283199 0.3207411
Gradius 2 (MSX) 2 0.1371522
Gradius 4 1 0.0230179
Gradius Gaiden 17 0.8060765
Gradius Galaxies 4 9.035642E-02
Gradius II Gofer no Yabo 11.5776 0.4257558
Gradius III (SNES) 7.2832 0.2797946
Gradius V 19.59846 1.244995
Guardian Force 2 7.084745E-02
Gunbird 4 9.302031E-02
Gunbird 2 18.224 0.9930743
Gunnac 4.5776 0.1023674
Gunsmoke 1 5.172414E-02
Guwange 13.41126 0.4795271
Gynoug 4 0.1285343
Gyruss 1.5776 5.249945E-02
Harmful Park 4 0.1761422
heavy unit 1 3.157895E-02
Hellfire 7.16 0.2007613
Hellsinker 1 6.905371E-02
Hybris (Amiga) 1 0.0212766
Hype 1 2.762431E-02
Hyper Duel 2 0.1309131
Ikaruga 24.79206 1.259083
Image Fight 3 0.1167677
Image Fight II 1 2.222222E-02
Imperishable Night 6 0.3321924
In The Hunt 2.892857 7.425807E-02
Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius 7 0.2160932
Judgement Silversword 2 0.1216846
Katakis 1 9.345794E-03
Ketsui 5.611257 0.3445424
Last Resort 4 0.2050582
Layer Section 17.59846 0.7485865
Life Force (NES) 9.283199 0.3022589
Lords of Thunder 10.5184 0.4229856
Macross 2036 1 2.222222E-02
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie 4.5776 0.0927703
Magical Chase 1.16 0.0241979
Mahou Daisakusen 2 8.279279E-02
Mars Matrix 19.224 0.7958078
Metal Black 3 7.092539E-02
Moreo Twinbee 1 5.172414E-02
Mr. Heli no Daibouken 2 6.455445E-02
Musha Aleste 11.224 0.4267302
Mushihimesama 2.892857 0.1000288
Nexzr 4 0.1391545
NOIZ2SA 4 0.1157273
Outzone 3.1936 0.1656396
Override 1 2.739726E-02
Parodius 2 4.479505E-02
Parodius Da! 4.892857 0.1330374
Parsec 47 6 0.3759415
Perfect Cherry Blossom 6 0.2501113
Pop'n Twinbee 2.892857 7.343115E-02
Power Strike II 4 0.1393916
Progear no Arashi 6.451257 0.2377342
Project X Special Edition 1 6.542056E-02
Psyvariar 2 5 0.1339042
Psyvariar Revision 3 0.1788216
Psyvariar: Medium Unit 2 0.0490478
Pulstar 4 0.1606366
R-Type 18.5776 0.6193835
R-Type Delta 11.08646 0.6701119
R-Type Final 2 5.389743E-02
R-Type II 6 0.1828102
R-Type III 6.5776 0.2180739
R-Type Leo 2 6.504174E-02
Radiant Silvergun 18.75846 1.185046
radio zonde 3 0.30013
Raiden 5 0.2542425
Raiden DX 11 0.9115596
Raiden Fighters 2.892857 8.195601E-02
Raiden Fighters 2 4 0.1282838
Raiden Fighters Jet 6 0.3697176
Raiden II 8 0.286508
Rally Raid 2 4.721833E-02
Raptor: Call of the Shadows 1 2.557545E-03
Ray Crisis 1 2.197802E-02
RayStorm 3 0.137947
Rayxanber III 1 3.378378E-02
Recca 7.5776 0.3055024
Robo Aleste 2 7.434744E-02
rRootage 5 0.169258
Salamander 9 0.2639655
Salamander (MSX) 1 0.106383
Salamander 2 4 9.882843E-02
Samidare 1 2.822581E-02
Sanxion 1 8.411215E-02
Score Soldier -Winter Festival 2004 1 0.0475162
Scramble 1 1.351351E-02
Sengoku Ace 2 8.163643E-02
Sengoku Blade 9.892857 0.3357319
Sentimental Shooting (hentai) 1 7.672634E-03
Sexy Parodius 7.892857 0.2021246
Shienryu 6 0.1735204
Shikigami no Shiro 1 3.614458E-02
Shikigami no Shiro 2 18.384 0.5846534
Shippu Mahou Daisakusen 2 2.217321E-02
Side Arms 4 0.134643
Silk Worm 1 6.451613E-02
Sky Shark 2 3.313531E-02
Sol Feace 1 2.222222E-02
Solar Striker 1 1.369863E-02
Soldier Blade 13.5184 0.415943
Sonic Wings Special 4 0.1162496
Soukyugurentai 17.89446 0.8440722
Space Bomber 1 3.614458E-02
Space Invaders 1 1.204819E-02
Space Manbow 5 0.231924
Space War 1 1.204819E-02
Spriggan 3.16 8.003514E-02
Spriggan Mark 2 1 2.222222E-02
Star Force 1 1.492537E-02
Star Parodia 1 1.369863E-02
Star Soldier (Gamecube) 3 7.276141E-02
Strahl 1 2.927928E-02
Strikers 1945 7 0.2572788
Strikers 1945 II 17.7056 0.5794836
Strikers 1945 III 3.5184 0.1623864
Strikers 1945 Plus 2 6.000001E-02
Super Aleste 7.892857 0.2454078
Super Laydock (MSX) 1 6.382979E-02
Super Spacefortress Macross/Chou-Jikuu Yousai Macross (Arcades)
1 4.444445E-02
Super Star Soldier 7 0.1283454
Swiv 1 1.492537E-02
Tempest 3000 1 5.454545E-02
Thunder Cross 1 0.04
Thunder Force AC 1 0.05
Thunder Force II 2 4.788873E-02
Thunder Force III 19 0.8503814
Thunder Force IV 12.47046 0.6987288
Thunder Force V 13 0.6602625
tokyo (arcade) 0.16 2.909091E-03
Truxton 4 6.306048E-02
Truxton 2 1 5.208333E-02
Tumiki Fighters 7 0.1887848
Twin Cobra 4 0.1175818
Twin Cobra II (Arcades) 1 4.444445E-02
Twin Hawk 1 3.278688E-02
Twinbee 2 6.896552E-02
Twinbee Yahho 1 3.448276E-02
Twinkle Star Sprites 4 0.1502324
Tyrian 1 3.589744E-02
U.N. Squadron (SNES) 7 0.2977808
UN Squadron (arcade) 2 6.448276E-02
Uridium 1 5.405405E-02
Uridium 2 1 3.314917E-02
Vasara 1 4.279279E-02
Vasara 2 3 6.896642E-02
Viewpoint 3.16 0.1239368
Viper Phase 1 2 4.347732E-02
W-Ring 1 2.739726E-02
Warning Forever 6 0.1495219
X2 No Relief 1 9.345794E-03
Xenon 2 Megablast 1 9.345794E-03
Xevious 3 0.1141486
Xexex 2 7.614458E-02
Z-Out 1 4.455446E-02
Zanac (NES) 13.5776 0.4936362
Zanac Neo 7.892857 0.3375428
Zero Gunner 2 10.8656 0.4932908
Game Count: 261LIST OF SYNONYMS
Code: Select all
1943 (arcade) / 1943 (NES)
Aeroblasters / Air Buster
Aleste / Power Strike
Batsugun / Batsugun (special edition)
Blazing Lazers / Gunhed
Darius Force / Super Nova
Galaga / Galaga (2-shot)
Galaga '88 (arcade) / Galaga '90 (PCE)
Gradius / Nemesis
Gradius II Gofer no Yabo
Gradius 2 (MSX) / Nemesis MSX / Nemesis '90 Kai
Gynoug / Wings of Wor
Layer Section / Rayforce / Gunlock / Galactic Attack
Life Force / Salamander (NES)
Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder
Sorcer Striker/Mahou Daisakusen
Stinger / Moreo Twinbee NES
Musha Aleste / M.U.S.H.A.
R-Type / R-Type Complete (PCE)
Salamander / Salamander (AC) / Salamander (PCE) / Salamander (arcade)
Salamander (MSX)
Sengoku Ace / Samurai Aces
Sengoku Blade / Tengai
Shienryu / Gekioh: Shooting King
Shippu Mahou Daisakusen / Kingdom Grand Prix
Soukyugurentai / Terra Diver
Super Aleste / Space Megaforce
Thunderforce IV / Lightening Force
UN Squadron (arcade) / Area 88 (arcade)
U.N. Squadron (SNES) / Area 88 (SFC)
Zanac (NES) / Zanac EX (MSX)-
Bydobasher
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:16 pm
- Location: The Bydo Empire
Me!Bydobasher wrote:I see someone voted for Heavy Unit. I look forward to the day when I can play that on my PC; I remember liking it very much, but I don't remember it very well, unfortunately.
One of my fav PCE shmups, that one. I'll get that two-loop clear one of these days...No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.
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-
Bydobasher
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:16 pm
- Location: The Bydo Empire
Do you prefer the PCE version? I don't remember the arcade game very well, but I played the PCE version recently, and it seemed to me that it just wasn't the same thing -- in my opinion, this is true of most of the PCE ports. I don't have an inherent problem with that, but in the case of Heavy Unit it seemed to me that I liked the original much better.
Sadly, I've never played the arcade original so I can't say. I do know there are some differences between the two, at least a rotating bullet door (or something like that...) is missing from PCE's fifth stage.Bydobasher wrote:Do you prefer the PCE version? I don't remember the arcade game very well, but I played the PCE version recently, and it seemed to me that it just wasn't the same thing -- in my opinion, this is true of most of the PCE ports. I don't have an inherent problem with that, but in the case of Heavy Unit it seemed to me that I liked the original much better.
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.
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Man, after reading all this, I feel like I should have only voted for about 15 games. I did enjoy playing all 25 of my choices, so I don't feel like I was really stretching my list, but there were a few that probably don't belong on a "best ever" list.
Anyway, this voting business has got me into MAME a little bit more. I'd played Batsugun before, and just now I started looking at Garegga, DP, and DDP. My first impression is that they're all pretty hard; there has been a great deal of cursing. I can't pick a favorite yet.
Anyway, this voting business has got me into MAME a little bit more. I'd played Batsugun before, and just now I started looking at Garegga, DP, and DDP. My first impression is that they're all pretty hard; there has been a great deal of cursing. I can't pick a favorite yet.
My thoughts too. I'm definitely a "relative newbie" under nullstar's definition.shiftace wrote:Man, after reading all this, I feel like I should have only voted for about 15 games. I did enjoy playing all 25 of my choices, so I don't feel like I was really stretching my list, but there were a few that probably don't belong on a "best ever" list.
Of course, the way nullstar defines it, I doubt there are more than 10 or 20 people here who really have the breadth of experience to accurately vote. And several of them were protesting the exclusive of Gyruss and Tempest.
Well, that's one of the reasons I didn't vote- I didn't seem to fit into the niche that nullstar was encouraging. I've played shooters since the Commodore 64 and consider myself experienced and informed about the genre, but I don't know if I've even played many more than 100 titles (depending on what you might count), which seems to be on the "low end" of suggested experience to vote.
Still, it's difficult to say that playing more shmups necessarily leads to more experience with the genre. If I went out now and emulated 100 pre-90's shmups, I'm not sure how much that would change my opinion of, say, DoDonPachi. Some of these games are deep enough that literally months could be spent learning their intricacies. Spending that amount of time with just one could lead a person to feel far more confident about that game on its own merit, as well as the genre's possibilities, strengths, problems, etc. rather than just playing bits and pieces of dozens of games- especially true because of the intentionally ambiguous idea of picking a "top" shmup. I would listen just as closely to the opinion of someone who dedicates himself to one game per year as to someone who has played 600 shmups. Obviously, the ideal voter would have a great deal of breadth and depth of experience, but adding to one takes away from the other.
Still, it's difficult to say that playing more shmups necessarily leads to more experience with the genre. If I went out now and emulated 100 pre-90's shmups, I'm not sure how much that would change my opinion of, say, DoDonPachi. Some of these games are deep enough that literally months could be spent learning their intricacies. Spending that amount of time with just one could lead a person to feel far more confident about that game on its own merit, as well as the genre's possibilities, strengths, problems, etc. rather than just playing bits and pieces of dozens of games- especially true because of the intentionally ambiguous idea of picking a "top" shmup. I would listen just as closely to the opinion of someone who dedicates himself to one game per year as to someone who has played 600 shmups. Obviously, the ideal voter would have a great deal of breadth and depth of experience, but adding to one takes away from the other.
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chtimi-CLA
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i voted for heavy unit, and you're right, the arcade version is much better.Bydobasher wrote:Do you prefer the PCE version? I don't remember the arcade game very well, but I played the PCE version recently, and it seemed to me that it just wasn't the same thing -- in my opinion, this is true of most of the PCE ports. I don't have an inherent problem with that, but in the case of Heavy Unit it seemed to me that I liked the original much better.
like splatterhouse or ninja spirit, the PCE version is competent but doesn't have the same punch as the arcade (from what i remember because i haven't played it since i got the pcb).
about the polls, i think a non-weighted poll would be better:
since only 10% of the games received votes from more than 1/4 of voters, one people allocating all or most of his points to one game has an huge impact on the results (people who spread their points become irrelevant).
another problem is people who like one genre voting for the most well-known, or accessible, shmup in that genre. i really doubt so many manic votes would go toward DDP if more people had played ketsui or guwange, other than on a PC screen. that problem is hard to avoid though without being too elitist (the rules tried).
i also think that the dominance of modern shmups can't be explained only by younger voters not knowing classics (of course it's still a factor). as much as i like classics, there is one thing only manics can do, getting you in the zone.
r-type has acquired a special status, it's like the george washington of shmups now and it will probably never drop from the top25. i think twin cobra would deserve the same status for verticals, i'm surprised it got so few votes..
One thing that I noticed from the TOP25, is that the weapons is those games really give you the sense of mass destruction that all good shooters should have. I've always hated shooters like Gradius because your weapons are so puny and pathetic. Guardian Force is more like a Thunder Force game in that you REALLY feel like you're obliterating everything in sight with burly weapons of global scale destruction.
I'm surprised no one voted for that?!
I'm surprised no one voted for that?!
I voted for Guardian Force. Someone else did too, if I'm reading nullstar's data a few posts up correctly. I'm not sure I totally agree with you about the arsenal (yeah, it's big, but not THAT big), but it is indeed a great game. Highly underappreciated.ST Dragon wrote:One thing that I noticed from the TOP25, is that the weapons is those games really give you the sense of mass destruction that all good shooters should have. I've always hated shooters like Gradius because your weapons are so puny and pathetic. Guardian Force is more like a Thunder Force game in that you REALLY feel like you're obliterating everything in sight with burly weapons of global scale destruction.
I'm surprised no one voted for that?!
alpha5099 wrote:I voted for Guardian Force. Someone else did too, if I'm reading nullstar's data a few posts up correctly. I'm not sure I totally agree with you about the arsenal (yeah, it's big, but not THAT big), but it is indeed a great game. Highly underappreciated.ST Dragon wrote:One thing that I noticed from the TOP25, is that the weapons is those games really give you the sense of mass destruction that all good shooters should have. I've always hated shooters like Gradius because your weapons are so puny and pathetic. Guardian Force is more like a Thunder Force game in that you REALLY feel like you're obliterating everything in sight with burly weapons of global scale destruction.
I'm surprised no one voted for that?!
And incredibly fucking hard.
I don't think I've ever gotten past the 3rd level...
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!
One note on the vote: aside some of the usually pointless debates this forum has made me used to, i don't get too much how people have self-hypnotized themselves to believe in the opposition between "old skool which is only console stuff" vs "modern stuff because arcades were born, like, 1995". People seriously lack (among many other things...) a proper knowledge of this genre's history.
But well, considering the average thread on the main chat, i'm not too surprised nor bothered : insert emoticon with an absent-minded face here:
But well, considering the average thread on the main chat, i'm not too surprised nor bothered : insert emoticon with an absent-minded face here:
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
Holy crap, Border Down and Battle Garegga didn't make the top 25 
Edit: Man, I should have been reading this thread earlier.
1) More arguments should be done using pictures.
2) Man, the old school vs. 'new' school thing is silly and missing the subjectivity. Really, for me, Dodonpachi is still a step backwards and I like Batsugun and Donpachi MORE. So saying all new games >> all old games is ridiculous. As always, Fireshark will own your asses if you disagree with me
3) Yeah, I do feel the top 25 list is definitely skewed based on the newness of games. This is kind of hard to remove since more people have been playing the new games and know the new games. I think this 'over-rating' of new games is something we can't really do anything about, though (for example) I doubt Shiki2 will be on the top 25 (if even on the honorable mention) next year. This is just an example of a very recent game that has ports on almost every console.
4) Will Dodonpachi ever NOT be #1?
Edit: Man, I should have been reading this thread earlier.
1) More arguments should be done using pictures.
2) Man, the old school vs. 'new' school thing is silly and missing the subjectivity. Really, for me, Dodonpachi is still a step backwards and I like Batsugun and Donpachi MORE. So saying all new games >> all old games is ridiculous. As always, Fireshark will own your asses if you disagree with me
3) Yeah, I do feel the top 25 list is definitely skewed based on the newness of games. This is kind of hard to remove since more people have been playing the new games and know the new games. I think this 'over-rating' of new games is something we can't really do anything about, though (for example) I doubt Shiki2 will be on the top 25 (if even on the honorable mention) next year. This is just an example of a very recent game that has ports on almost every console.
4) Will Dodonpachi ever NOT be #1?
SHMUP sale page.Randorama wrote:ban CMoon for being a closet Jerry Falwell cockmonster/Ann Coulter fan, Nijska a bronie (ack! The horror!), and Ed Oscuro being unable to post 100-word arguments without writing 3-pages posts.
Eugenics: you know it's right!
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Shatterhand
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Tar-Palantir
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Actually...I found another error w/ my random facts above but was in the midst of a final and forgot to post...CMoon wrote:4) Will Dodonpachi ever NOT be #1?
Ikaruga actually received the most votes this year; DDP still has the highest overall score, but it was just shy of 24 votes, while Iky nearly got 25. DDP, however, received about 1/3 more weight from voters, which explains why DDP still won out on the final score.
The error: this means Ikaruga was actually the only game to get a vote from more than half of the participants. DDP was *just* shy.
Expecting people to go back and play hundreds of games is pretty crazy, emulation or no.Tar-Palantir wrote:You'd think that emulation would correct this problem, though. A gamer can look at shmups' history by playing through their 'back catalogue' (*cough, ahem*).Randorama wrote:People seriously lack (among many other things...) a proper knowledge of this genre's history.
I have trouble enjoying the "classics" of the genre because I really enjoy the way that hitboxes are handled now (i.e. accurately). Modern shmups allow for higher resolutions which mean more pixels per area so you can specify a smaller, more accurate zone on the ship rather than a massive block that more or less encompasses the entire craft. Of course, I'm probably one of the younger punks on this site so I didn't really grow up with the the old stuff; Ikaruga was my real introduction to shmups.[/quote]
I dont want to shoot you down (so to speak)
But resolution has no consequence on the size of a hit box. Its simply design. Most old shooters have a hitbox within the graphical extents of the ship gfx. Its only those that are badly programmed / designed that have hitboxes which are out of the graphically defined craft.
You couldnt have had hitboxes like those in Psyvariar / shinki etc as old school shooters were not a bullet fest, otherwise the game would have been incredibly easy as a result.
I love shoot-em-ups in both flavours If you've not played Gaiares you have missed out, as you have if you havent played ikaruga etc. Open your mind and enjoy one of the genres which does not need the latest technology, but only the greatest design.
I dont want to shoot you down (so to speak)
But resolution has no consequence on the size of a hit box. Its simply design. Most old shooters have a hitbox within the graphical extents of the ship gfx. Its only those that are badly programmed / designed that have hitboxes which are out of the graphically defined craft. You couldnt have had hitboxes like those in Psyvariar / shinki etc as old school shooters were not a bullet fest, otherwise the game would have been incredibly easy as a result.
I love shoot-em-ups in both flavours If you've not played Gaiares you have missed out, as you have if you havent played ikaruga etc. Open your mind and enjoy one of the genres which does not need the latest technology, but only the greatest design.
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SheSaidDutch
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snap monkey
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I hear what you're saying about resolution, and that makes sense. There's no reason they couldn't have implemented smaller hit boxes decades ago; the developers simply chose not to, I guess. However, just from my experiences revisiting some older shmups, a lot of the time I feel like the hit boxes are frustratingly ambiguous/overreaching. Some examples are Gradius I, II, III, and IV. I always feel like I'm being cheaped out of a life, which is a shame because it ruins some really fun games for me. Just my opinion from playing more recent shmups.qatmix wrote: I dont want to shoot you down (so to speak)
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Shatterhand
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I like both oldschool and newer shooters. You can almost split them as 2 sub genre's much like 2D fighting and 3D fighting games. The really good modern shooters are usually so good because of inovation within the genre which is one of the reasons they are rated so high. The challenge in manic shooters is obviously the number of bullets and speed etc. while a lot of the older ones are slower paced but you don't always get to continue forever or respawn instantly. The newer shmups definitely have an edge in graphics and sound but unless you set goals (beating a score or getting as far as you can on 1 life) they aren't as rewarding especially through emulation where you can just mindlessly blast through the game with infinite continues.
Shatterhand wrote:It's just that you got used with small hitboxes
I grew up with oldschool shmups, so I don't see any problems with larger hitboxes. I've been playing Batsugun lately, and many times I go like "What the fuck, I was supposed to have died!?!"
Batsugun quickly becomes a mindfuck if you go from playing Special version to Original.
I'm finding this out lately...
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!