So, does any of you play Go?

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:38 am

In case you're wondering, this is what I'm talking about:

This is a pretty interesting game. The rules are simple, but it becomes very complex with all the tactics and strategy involved. Anyone who likes board games should definitely give this a try.

This site should teach you everything there is to know about Go in about 10-15 minutes. And here is an internet Go server. I'm just getting started in this game and I'd be glad to play with anyone there. If you're interested, just let me know.

And by the way, for those living in Japan, how's the Go scene over there? I heard it's very popular, with go saloons, tournaments and even TV shows about it.

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:51 am

I don't personally.

P_O Funfact: Creating a computer opponent that plays Go well is by far the the biggest challenge facing programmers of traditional strategy board games such as chess or checkers.

ReKleSS · Post by **ReKleSS** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:04 am

I tried to for a while, played a few matches on KGS and in person at uni... I could never get the hang of it. It might have helped to find someone to work with to improve, but I've kind of given up now.

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:56 pm

I just learned a bit last night. Thanks for peaking my interest. I suppose I could play you a few games. They seem to last much longer than checkers.

I plan to make my own board from oak and some copper accent lines then put a coat of poly on. I'll probably just purchase some of those glass blobs from a craft store for stones, fun colors like blue and orange. Completely parting with tradition and offending millions.

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:35 pm

Pixel_Outlaw wrote:I just learned a bit last night. Thanks for peaking my interest. I suppose I could play you a few games. They seem to last much longer than checkers.

Please bear in mind that beginners should play at least 20-30 9x9 games before moving on to 19x19.
In any case, I'm DeSangre on KGS too, see you all in there when you want. FREE LESSONZ FOR SHMUPPERS!

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:45 pm

LOL! DESA DE GO!!!!

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:18 pm

Fenrir wrote:LOL! DESA DE GO!!!!

Ok, now please take the longest route to Knivskjelodden and GOODBYE.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:22 pm

If you guys feel like playing, you can find me at the Beginner's Room on KGS as Ruldra.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:04 am

From what I've seen Go seems to be more interesting and deeper than chess, with less memorization problems too (chess is played too much with memorization and theory only in the beginning of games). I heard even pro chess players admitted Go was more complex.

JUX.Jaggsen · Post by **JUX.Jaggsen** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:21 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:From what I've seen Go seems to be more interesting and deeper than chess, with less memorization problems too (chess is played too much with memorization and theory only in the beginning of games). I heard even pro chess players admitted Go was more complex.

That's true. A chess programm without an opening book would be useless against serious human competition. In chess, on a certain level, the transition from midgame to endgame and the endgame itself really seperates the men from the boys (except for inexperienced players with high intuition for positions f.e., but lacking knowledge of openings vs. a memorizer who is weaker in all other departments). I'm very interested in Go; will join KGS too. Any chess players here, btw?

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:14 am

I took the advise and made a 9x9 extremely cheap set. I wanted to play a bit with my dad, who is also learning.

I folded the boxes from memory and used glass blobs from my mothers flower vases.

Impervious · Post by **Impervious** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:23 am

in junior high, i played a very, very similar game called Othello.

i was pretty good

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:46 am

Impervious wrote:in junior high, i played a very, very different game called Othello.

fixed

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:57 am

Pixel_Outlaw wrote:I took the advise and made a 9x9 extremely cheap set.

Looks nice, although the "paper bowls" should be larger I guess

Anyway, to arrange a lesson for newbies, I'd like to first know everyone's timezone.

I live in Italy (GMT+1) and I'd generally prefer 10PM my time. But feel free to suggest anything

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:02 pm

DeSangre wrote:Imawuss

fixed

btw, I play GO too! You will find me on KGS when my internets works LELO! I'm 10k I'm strong no really I am

trivial · Post by **trivial** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:12 pm

You can tell Othello/Reversi is "wussier" because Windows 2.1 plays a mean AI game.

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:09 pm

Fenrir wrote:btw, I play GO too! You will find me on KGS when my internets works LELO! I'm 10k I'm strong no really I am

You're stronger than you think

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:52 pm

Great game, though I feel chess is a lot deeper. (this is coming from an avid chess player...)

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:20 am

Hmm adding more types of pieces does not really make it more deep. More complex perhaps but not deeper.

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:08 am

KindGrind wrote:Great game, though I feel chess is a lot deeper. (this is coming from an avid chess player...)

I think you really need to put 50+ hours into chess and 50+ hours into Go before coming to objective conclusions like deeper/lighter.

I'm not questioning personal tastes, anyone is free to play the games he/she likes, but this article might be a good place if we want to discuss the go/chess comparison by stating facts.

http://users.eniinternet.com/bradleym/Compare.html

I know it is quite long, but anyone interested in numbers only can skip to the table at the bottom, which is worth a thousand words...

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:36 am

Computers can play chess a heckuvalot better then they can play Go. There's your proof right there.

The simple rules of Go result in exceedingly complex and deep gameplay.

Ask ANYONE who is any good at Go which is the deeper game, and you will always get the same answer.

People will say chess is the deepest game ever created. They say that because in their minds, GO has ALWAYS existed, and was naver "created".

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:39 pm

Go is not that well known in the west it seems. Chess is more a western played game. I used to call it "Chest" when I was little but playing chest would be something different completely.

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:14 pm

The only reason a computer plays chess better than Go is the exposure chess has. What's the use of a super computer playing Go like a champ if not that many people play it / it doesn't draw crowds?

I don't want to take anything away from Go, it's got history, too, and it's a very complex game. I was merely stating an arbitrary opinion based on lots of chess experience and a moderate Go one.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:52 pm

KindGrind wrote:The only reason a computer plays chess better than Go is the exposure chess has. What's the use of a super computer playing Go like a champ if not that many people play it / it doesn't draw crowds?

Go is very popular in the East, and there's an enormous interest in making a computer that can play well. The reason it can't is this (quote from DeSangre's link):

Immense scale makes the application of "standard" techniques infeasible even on supercomputers. Requires a real breakthrough in Artificial Intelligence which has not yet been achieved

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:19 pm

I'd like to learn it - the simplified one in 42 Classics is one of the best games in the cart

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:25 pm

KindGrind wrote:The only reason a computer plays chess better than Go is the exposure chess has. What's the use of a super computer playing Go like a champ if not that many people play it / it doesn't draw crowds?

I don't want to take anything away from Go, it's got history, too, and it's a very complex game. I was merely stating an arbitrary opinion based on lots of chess experience and a moderate Go one.

No I don't think that's true at all. Go is very popular as well and extremely popular in Asia. You can tell from understanding how chess and go can be played that it's extremely hard for a computer to just analyze possibilities and draw conclusions from them in go as opposed to chess : it is much harder to attribute a "winning value" to a move in Go because it has consequences in the long run, for longer than a move in chess and worth more points. Hence the need to play strategically and not just tactically, and that is what a computer can't do today if I'm not mistaken.

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:33 am

Turrican wrote:I'd like to learn it - the simplified one in 42 Classics is one of the best games in the cart

IIRC the one in 42 classics is go moku which sadly it's just a children's game played with go stones

trivial · Post by **trivial** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:51 pm

What if the problem were with the idea that the ways to play well are susceptible to programming by code? Any evidence that good go players have spent much time training a neural net?

Is the time taken between moves by a human player likely to be a useful thing to know?

DeSangre · Post by **DeSangre** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:50 pm

trivial wrote:What if the problem were with the idea that the ways to play well are susceptible to programming by code? Any evidence that good go players have spent much time training a neural net?

Well, this may have been a good incentive:

The Million Dollar Prize
This is Mr Ing, he was offering 40 million Taiwanese dollars (over 1 million dollars US) to anyone who could write a program that can beat a Taiwanese professional. Sadly Mr Ing died on August 27, 1997 at the age of 84. The prize was still valid until the year 2000.

http://www.reiss.demon.co.uk/webgo/million.htm