Finding the emulation deficiencies - Vol. 1: CAVE games.

[Recap]

Even if it is 10% or 20% slower on MAME, if one has never played the original version and can't tell the difference anyway, who the heck cares?

In the end it only matters to the diehard hardcore elitists/purists.

Game creators designed the game to be played at a specific speed. Your comment is pretty... unsubstantial.

[chtimi-CLA]

he recap, since i don't have a xbox yet, how would you rate the video output? (i just bought daisenryaku 7 so i will get one someday)

i'm asking because i have the "pseudo-RGB" cable for my jp gamecube (you know, the one made from a VGA cable) and it's almost as bad as s-video. i heard the x-box video output is the worst of the 3, is that true, or does it depend on the country version?

[raiden]

it was slower in old versions of mame, didn't anyone read my post up there?

Yep, but you don't say how much slower. The question is if they're still noticable slower than the PCB.

they´re not slower, but faster. I can confirm this for Dodonpachi and Guwange. My estimate would be about 10% faster. To make it clear, the Mame versions runs faster than the PCBs.

[cigsthecat]

I always notice input lag going from PCB to emulation on the same game. If you've played something for any length of time the difference is extremely noticeable.

[Recap]

he recap, since i don't have a xbox yet, how would you rate the video output? (i just bought daisenryaku 7 so i will get one someday)

i'm asking because i have the "pseudo-RGB" cable for my jp gamecube (you know, the one made from a VGA cable) and it's almost as bad as s-video. i heard the x-box video output is the worst of the 3, is that true, or does it depend on the country version?

I don't think so. 31 kHz (non-interlaced) mode supposedly works fine once you get the proper VGA cable, but I'm not the best person to answer Xbox-related questions.

they´re not slower, but faster. I can confirm this for Dodonpachi and Guwange. My estimate would be about 10% faster. To make it clear, the Mame versions runs faster than the PCBs.

I'll update with it, thanks (confirmed with a recent MAME version, then?). Are they constantly faster or just "overclocked" like Esprade?

I always notice input lag going from PCB to emulation on the same game. If you've played something for any length of time the difference is extremely noticeable.

Those may very well be motherboard/adaptor/joystick problems.

[it290]

On the subject of input lag, I find that if the joystick is polled through DirectX, the lag becomes more apparent. Turning off DirectInput (when possible) or using a keyboard-based joystick reduces the lag considerably.

[raiden]

Are they constantly faster or just "overclocked" like Esprade?

Mame version 0.93 - I´d say overclocked, the difference is mainly visible when a lot of bullets are on screen and in the absence of a lot of slowdown. Another small difference is bullets don´t flicker in Mame. This could also be a voltage issue, I remember reading that bullet flickering could be remedied by raising the +5V voltage level, but I´m too afraid to try that.
Concering input lag, that is something I´ve also noticed with doujin games, so it´s probably not the emulator´s fault but due to the way a PC handles input in general. I´m not sure whether "lag" is the right term, though, I´d rather call it lack of precision. With a PCB, I can move the spaceship 10 pixels to the left pretty reliably, but trying the same thing with any game that´s running on PC will give results between 5 and 15 pixels, which of course can mean the difference between dying and surviving.

[LUNardei]

Well, it matters for score purposes. I thought I was doing pretty well at improving my DDP skills playing in MAME, until I started playing the Saturn version again and got my ass handed to me.. just for comparison, my MAME high score is around 25 million, whereas on the Saturn I haven't broken 15 mil yet. BTW, I was using the latest versions of both xmame and mame32, so I don't think it's just an issue with older versions, unless the PCB is also noticably slower than the Saturn version.

Saturn version is faster than Mame's one. What it means? Thisi in NOT a sign of how good the port is or how bad the emulation is. Sat porting (and PSX too) are not able to reproduce the same slowdowns of the PCB, which i remember is the only point of reference. So if you want to play for score don't use Sat or PSX version!

they´re not slower, but faster. I can confirm this for Dodonpachi and Guwange. My estimate would be about 10% faster. To make it clear, the Mame versions runs faster than the PCBs.

5/10% slower or faster i think it's not so easily noticeable. 20% is noticeable.

[undamned]

So, not to be a pill, but I can't help but chuckle that you are on a personal crusade to match emu to PCB and don't have personal experience with both to even know what the differences are. Just a thought.
-ud

[cigsthecat]

input in general. I´m not sure whether "lag" is the right term, though, I´d rather call it lack of precision. With a PCB, I can move the spaceship 10 pixels to the left pretty reliably, but trying the same thing with any game that´s running on PC will give results between 5 and 15 pixels, which of course can mean the difference between dying and surviving.

Yes, you're right. Emulated control is muddier in general, less precise. This won't matter to someone playing only to see the pretty colors and spaceships flying by so I can understand why Recap doesn't notice.

[LUNardei]

So, not to be a pill, but I can't help but chuckle that you are on a personal crusade to match emu to PCB and don't have personal experience with both to even know what the differences are. Just a thought.
-ud

I have MAME and Saturn version of DDP. I've played it on the original PCB. I've watched BR1 playing on the PCB and with MAME. BR1 is not a 20mill player, he's a 100 mill player, so i've watched the game on PCB for at least an hour in two days.

[undamned]

So, not to be a pill, but I can't help but chuckle that you are on a personal crusade to match emu to PCB and don't have personal experience with both to even know what the differences are. Just a thought.
-ud

I have MAME and Saturn version of DDP. I've played it on the original PCB. I've watched BR1 playing on the PCB and with MAME. BR1 is not a 20mill player, he's a 100 mill player, so i've watched the game on PCB for at least an hour in two days.

Sorry, I was referring to Recap. He's the one asking others what the differences are.
-ud

[LUNardei]

Uh, no prob

[llabnip]

Sat porting (and PSX too) are not able to reproduce the same slowdowns of the PCB

The developers of the PSX rev set out to "cure" the slowdown issues that were present in the arcade rev. Purists will argue that they should leave it alone - I'm not one of them. Anyway, they felt they nailed the slowdown issue well enough that they actually programmed back in a WAIT ON feature to add back in the slowdown to mimic the arcade rev so players can have it either way. However, it's not perfectly accurate, but that's still a very wothwhile attempt on thier part and I applaud the effort. I do not play with the wait on, I much prefer the more consistant framerate of the PSX rev in the default mode - it may be a little harder than the slowdown-ridden arcade rev, but you get used to the beautiful smoothness of it all in time. I suppose if I wanted to absolutely maximize my score, I'd play with WAIT ON or play the PCB but I don't care for the slowdown anymore.

By the way, I still maintain that the slowdown in most games is not intentional. Being a software developer, there are CPU bandwitdh constraints for virtually all real-time calculations that take place... I suspect they try to make it run smooth most of the time and don't worry about the hardware limitations for the few times when bullets are screwn across the screen. When a console port has slowdown, people blame the developers for a crappy port. When an arcade game has slowdown, people praise the developers for their good judgement in having "intentional slowdown" just when the player needs it most. Yeah, sure...

[Neon]

So, not to be a pill, but I can't help but chuckle that you are on a personal crusade to match emu to PCB and don't have personal experience with both to even know what the differences are. Just a thought.
-ud

I have MAME and Saturn version of DDP. I've played it on the original PCB. I've watched BR1 playing on the PCB and with MAME. BR1 is not a 20mill player, he's a 100 mill player, so i've watched the game on PCB for at least an hour in two days.

Sorry, I was referring to Recap. He's the one asking others what the differences are.
-ud

The PCB is pretty damn rare, only a select few would ever be able to play it. Same with Progear, there's maybe 30 b boards total, is it ok to look down on those who don't get to play it because it was produced in such limited numbers?

I personally (and as a future owner of the PSX port) would love to see the game emulated perfectly (or as perfectly as possible). It's the only way you or I will ever get to play DDP Campaign version if it ever gets dumped, you know.

[raiden]

By the way, I still maintain that the slowdown in most games is not intentional. Being a software developer, there are CPU bandwitdh constraints for virtually all real-time calculations that take place... I suspect they make it run smooth for 90% and don't worry about the hardware limitations for the few times when bullets are screwn across the screen. When a console port has slowdown, people blame the developers. When an arcade game has slowdown, people praise the developers for their good judgement in having "intentional slowdown" just when the player needs it most. Yeah, sure...

I used to think like you do, but then I thought about DDP´s level design in relation to slowdown, and I had to admit the learning curve makes a lot more sense WITH slowdown. For instance, without slowdown, the level 2 boss is quite a bit harder to handle than the level 3 boss. Even with slowdown, this is true to some extent, but the slowdown can actually be seen as a balancing tool to keep the stage 2 boss´ difficulty in check.
Like others here mentioned, even in times of slowdown the ship stays fully maneuverable. When I look at modern PC games running in hires, like the Shanghai Alice ones, they have bullets moving EXTREMELY slow, sometimes less than 1 pixel per frame. Cave´s arcade games don´t have such a high resolution, and the only way to achieve such a slow movement in this environment will always look like slowdown.
The whole idea of manic shooters can be summed up by increasing bullet count and balancing this out with a small hitzone and a low bullet speed. That´s why I find slowdown a lot more disturbing in oldschool games with only a few objects on screen than in bullet curtain games where it can actually aid playability.

[raiden]

The PCB is pretty damn rare, only a select few would ever be able to play it. Same with Progear, there's maybe 30 b boards total, is it ok to look down on those who don't get to play it because it was produced in such limited numbers?
I personally (and as a future owner of the PSX port) would love to see the game emulated perfectly (or as perfectly as possible). It's the only way you or I will ever get to play DDP Campaign version if it ever gets dumped, you know.

The US version of Progear is rare, the JP one isn´t. Apart from that, you´re right, but you´re not the one claiming emulation to be perfect. Don´t you see the joke in saying that when someone didn´t even compare versions so he has to ask questions instead?

[undamned]

The PCB is pretty damn rare, only a select few would ever be able to play it. Same with Progear, there's maybe 30 b boards total, is it ok to look down on those who don't get to play it because it was produced in such limited numbers?

Ok, none of that was true. DDP||Progear != Rare or very limited. I've owned two DDP PCB's (JP and INT'L), neither of which were hard to come by. I think I got both of them from Cosmic. Progear was only limited in the US and was well over the 30 or 50 that people hail. The original test run, may have been 30 or 50, but they continued to produce them for special orders. You can tell if your's is special order by the little art square on the B board. Original runs were color not the white/blue scheme.

I personally (and as a future owner of the PSX port) would love to see the game emulated perfectly (or as perfectly as possible).

I own both the PCB and the PSX ver. and can vouch for the legitmacy of the PSX ver.

It's the only way you or I will ever get to play DDP Campaign version if it ever gets dumped, you know.

Ok, finally somebody mentions a legitmately rare game.
-ud

[Neon]

Ok, none of that was true. DDP||Progear != Rare or very limited. I've owned two DDP PCB's (JP and INT'L), neither of which were hard to come by. I think I got both of them from Cosmic. Progear was only limited in the US and was well over the 30 or 50 that people hail. The original test run, may have been 30 or 50, but they continued to produce them for special orders. You can tell if your's is special order by the little art square on the B board. Original runs were color not the white/blue scheme.

Perhaps not DDP, though I know some people have been looking for the PCB for awhile. But Progear? This is from Neogeo.com

Vinh and I discussed its rareness and came to the
conclusion that there were about
45 or so kits made.

"Vinh" being Capcom's distributor dude.

Even so, <100 copies of the game, in comparison to the 15 thousand or so shooter fans left. There's just no way everyone would get to try it without the rom.

[Tony Gradius]

Sat porting (and PSX too) are not able to reproduce the same slowdowns of the PCB

The developers of the PSX rev set out to "cure" the slowdown issues that were present in the arcade rev. Purists will argue that they should leave it alone - I'm not one of them. Anyway, they felt they nailed the slowdown issue well enough that they actually programmed back in a WAIT ON feature to add back in the slowdown to mimic the arcade rev so players can have it either way. However, it's not perfectly accurate, but that's still a very wothwhile attempt on thier part and I applaud the effort. I do not play with the wait on, I much prefer the more consistant framerate of the PSX rev in the default mode - it may be a little harder than the slowdown-ridden arcade rev, but you get used to the beautiful smoothness of it all in time. I suppose if I wanted to absolutely maximize my score, I'd play with WAIT ON or play the PCB but I don't care for the slowdown anymore.

By the way, I still maintain that the slowdown in most games is not intentional. Being a software developer, there are CPU bandwitdh constraints for virtually all real-time calculations that take place... I suspect they try to make it run smooth most of the time and don't worry about the hardware limitations for the few times when bullets are screwn across the screen. When a console port has slowdown, people blame the developers for a crappy port. When an arcade game has slowdown, people praise the developers for their good judgement in having "intentional slowdown" just when the player needs it most. Yeah, sure...

WORD! If it slows down, there seems to be too much animated objects for the specific hardware. Or just not enough optimized code. If any programmer really wanted slowdown for gameplay reasons, he should better think about a hundred or ten of them less bullets per second instead of showing what the hardware can not do to balance the difficulty level.

The "wait control option" is the only reason, I rate the PSX rev. of R-Type over the Arcade-ORiginal, despite of it`s slightly more pixelated resolution.

[Recap]

Mame version 0.93 - I´d say overclocked, the difference is mainly visible when a lot of bullets are on screen and in the absence of a lot of slowdown. Another small difference is bullets don´t flicker in Mame. This could also be a voltage issue,

OK, then. Seems the general consensus is that the emulated CPU of Cave hardware is currently a bit overclocked, affecting in the same way to all the games and not just Esprade. I want to report it again in MAME boards when I ask if the a PCB is still needed, so more opiniona are welcome in order to verify with the latest MAME versions.

I´m not sure whether "lag" is the right term, though, I´d rather call it lack of precision. With a PCB, I can move the spaceship 10 pixels to the left pretty reliably, but trying the same thing with any game that´s running on PC will give results between 5 and 15 pixels, which of course can mean the difference between dying and surviving.

Do you play emulators with a small, not "tated" VGA monitor? Precision is very dependant on your screen's size. I never had precision problems with the emulated games I've played, and I've used many types of joysticks and adaptors.

Saturn version is faster than Mame's one. What it means? Thisi in NOT a sign of how good the port is or how bad the emulation is. Sat porting (and PSX too) are not able to reproduce the same slowdowns of the PCB, which i remember is the only point of reference. So if you want to play for score don't use Sat or PSX version!

Well, a console is able to reproduce the original slowdowns. If you prefer "optimizations" instead of accuracy, then, an "overclocked" port will be "good" to you, but if you're speaking about emulation, accuracy is what make of it "bad" or "good".

So, not to be a pill, but I can't help but chuckle that you are on a personal crusade to match emu to PCB and don't have personal experience with both to even know what the differences are. Just a thought.

So? Seems you're missing the point. This thread was a petition more than a contribution. I was asking people here owning the PCB's in order to know (and compile the info once and for all) and tell MAME devs about their opinions. And, eventually, to get a PCB for them. That's why I put question marks. Your problem?

This won't matter to someone playing only to see the pretty colors and spaceships flying by so I can understand why Recap doesn't notice.

Someone who plays "only to see the pretty colors and spaceships flying by" hardly would care about tiny speed issues, thoe. Try again. Or contribute with something informative, for once. If you can.

The PCB is pretty damn rare, only a select few would ever be able to play it. Same with Progear, there's maybe 30 b boards total, is it ok to look down on those who don't get to play it because it was produced in such limited numbers?

The funny thing is that I DID get to play PCB's of most old Cave games (Progear not being one of them, thoe) since they were widely availaible when I was in Tokyo. Of course, not enough to tell the differences now, and that's why I'm asking.

[Rob]

Someone who plays "only to see the pretty colors and spaceships flying by" hardly would care about tiny speed issues, thoe. Try again. Or contribute with something informative, for once. If you can.

A general repulsion to "impurities." Games are still completely enjoyable a tiny bit off speed.

[yojo!]

The PCB is pretty damn rare, only a select few would ever be able to play it. Same with Progear, there's maybe 30 b boards total, is it ok to look down on those who don't get to play it because it was produced in such limited numbers?

Ok, none of that was true. DDP||Progear != Rare or very limited. I've owned two DDP PCB's (JP and INT'L), neither of which were hard to come by. I think I got both of them from Cosmic. Progear was only limited in the US and was well over the 30 or 50 that people hail. The original test run, may have been 30 or 50, but they continued to produce them for special orders. You can tell if your's is special order by the little art square on the B board. Original runs were color not the white/blue scheme.-ud

I second that: I own Progear for the 2nd time now and did not have any trouble finding the Jap rev. Most HK suppliers have it . Actually I got an email from excellent in HK and they have some for sale.

[Recap]

Apart from that, you´re right, but you´re not the one claiming emulation to be perfect. Don´t you see the joke in saying that when someone didn´t even compare versions so he has to ask questions instead?

I claim that emulation can be *perfect* since I'VE MADE SIDE-BY-SIDE comparisons with some games and it was. And games I've had for a long time and know pretty well, by the way. This was with the Neo-Geo hardware, and now I want to know it regarding the Cave hardware. Where's the joke? Or is it just a problem with PCBs owners' ego here?

[undamned]

Apart from that, you´re right, but you´re not the one claiming emulation to be perfect. Don´t you see the joke in saying that when someone didn´t even compare versions so he has to ask questions instead?

I claim that emulation can be *perfect* since I'VE MADE SIDE-BY-SIDE comparisons with some games and it was. And games I've had for a long time and know pretty well, by the way. This was with the Neo-Geo hardware, and now I want to know it regarding the Cave hardware. Where's the joke? Or is it just a problem with PCBs owners' ego here?

This thread is not about NEO emulation, so saying NEO hardware to NEO emu is perfect does not mean that perfect CAVE emulation is possible. I think Raiden was saying what I am saying: How can you be so hard-core about that which you haven't confirmed yourself? If you haven't done side by side comp's for CAVE hardware, why are you even concerned? How do you know that the emu isn't perfect already (remember, other people's opinion's are not proof; you have to experience it yourself to have a leg to stand on)?
-ud

[Zhon]

The developers of the PSX rev set out to "cure" the slowdown issues that were present in the arcade rev.

Were the PSX devs the same as the original devs?

By the way, I still maintain that the slowdown in most games is not intentional. Being a software developer, there are CPU bandwitdh constraints for virtually all real-time calculations that take place... I suspect they try to make it run smooth most of the time and don't worry about the hardware limitations for the few times when bullets are screwn across the screen. When a console port has slowdown, people blame the developers for a crappy port. When an arcade game has slowdown, people praise the developers for their good judgement in having "intentional slowdown" just when the player needs it most. Yeah, sure...

A port and an original game have different purposes. A port normally tries to give the same experience as the original, so any differences are errors. But in originals, especially with uniform target hardware (console or arcade) the developers know exactly how a game will play when they playtest it, and approve it. To take the argument to the extreme - Mushi Ultra would NOT be the same game without slowdown - it's entirely necessary and intended.

[Recap]

This thread is not about NEO emulation, so saying NEO hardware to NEO emu is perfect does not mean that perfect CAVE emulation is possible. I think Raiden was saying what I am saying: How can you be so hard-core about that which you haven't confirmed yourself? If you haven't done side by side comp's for CAVE hardware, why are you even concerned? How do you know that the emu isn't perfect already (remember, other people's opinion's are not proof; you have to experience it yourself to have a leg to stand on)?
-ud

Seems that indeed it IS a problem with PCB owners' ego here. Firstly, I didn't say that current NG emulation is perfect, since there are still games not properly emulated and some clockspeed discussions between devs. Just said that some games I tested were perfectly replicated, that is, with NO differences for the player.

What I say about perfect Cave emulation, whether it's possible or not, doesn't matter. I'm not a programmer. I only know (and now, everybody here knows) that there are only some tiny clockspeed differences to get PERFECT Cave games emulation and that it can be fixed if a Cave PCB is send to MAME devs. Why? I asked them. Other people's opinion are *proof* to me depending on *who* they are. MAME devs are pretty reliable concerning these things to me.

How can you be so hard-core about that which you haven't confirmed yourself?

Maybe to show to people like you what a waste is to buy certain PCB's these days?

[Rob]

Maybe to show to people like you what a waste is to buy certain PCB's these days?

But wait, isn't emulation too "artificial" to be good or is that only when scanlines are sacrificed?

[BulletMagnet]

Were the PSX devs the same as the original devs?

I think IGS mighta ported the DonPachis to the PS1...

[Recap]

Were the PSX devs the same as the original devs?

I think IGS mighta ported the DonPachis to the PS1...

Meant "SPS", right?