the first person shooter game thread (eew fps)

[guigui]

Oh well. I must acknowledge I gave another try to FPS, shooter boomer category like Sima Tuna and Lander called them : Quake, Doom, Duke.
I fear I just cant get into it.

Not sure what does not click with me, though I guess aiming with a controller may be a part of it.
1st enemy : aim as you can, cant really say if you're going to hit or not, no time to aim again anyway, shoot, hit, shoot again, hit, kill, yay !
2nd enemy : aim as you can, cant really say if you're going to hit or not, no time to aim again anyway, shoot, miss, die, ouch !

Not that entertaining to me. Need to either try with a mouse, or try other games that allow more precise possibilities when it comes to killing things.

[XoPachi]

DAMN this looks good.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1549690/SPRAWL/

[BIL]

Not that entertaining to me. Need to either try with a mouse, or try other games that allow more precise possibilities when it comes to killing things.

I was gonna ask if you were on gamepad or KBM; the latter might improve your opinion a lot. I can just about enjoy FPSs on gamepad, but it's a conscious effort; KBM, with movement and aiming fully decoupled, is surgically-precise by comparison.

The FPS I enjoy most nowadays is Brutal DOOM, which is despised by some diehards for its sillier gimmicks like sweary taunts (I turn 'em off, I just want the more bloodthirsty enemies and thunderous weapon kickback ); but one thing I can say is, DOOM and Quake are easily precise on par with good conventional STGs; Quake III in particular is absolutely razor-sharp and lethal. They even share a lot of the same fundamental techniques; bullet-herding and macro-dodging are every bit as critical in DOOM, for example.

I don't know if I'd say the same, at least from personal experience, had I never made the jump from KB to KBM, back in '96 with OG Quake.

[XoPachi]

Brutal Doom is also largely hated because it's original creator, Sgt Mark was an outrageous piece of shit. I believe he also stole much of the assets used in the original build that got popular.
I'm not terribly entrenched in the Doom modding scene but think the BD builds used today are different from what he originally put out.

(I don't give a shit what mods people play)

[BIL]

I do remember him going full Mel Gibson in his code, that was pretty fucking bad.

[XoPachi]

There was also a bit of tangential disdain when TotalBiscuit (God rest his soul) was overly heralding it as The Way to Play™ Doom and that mindset somewhat caught on. There were a lot of new people who were claiming a perfectly serviceable, well aged experience in vanilla Doom 2 was dated and obsolete. This also annoyed modders whose work either relied on or was balanced around the base game. They would feel maligned that their work was either being ignored by people because it didn't go with BD or was in a way having their work scoffed at for favoring vanilla. And it made some modders double down by aggressively making sure you couldn't play their work with BD in the form of crashes, to trolling, to even jumpscares if you tried running some WADs with BD. Maybe a little salty but I can get the core annoyance.

I'm not trying to dump this all to discourage playing BD. I find it interesting how attitudes toward something colored the subject in more ways than it's own tangible merits already were.

[BIL]

For me, it was only ever a mod for The Ultimate DOOM - which I'll always love, but really has tired out over the years, just due to the maps not making full use of its monsters. Single-session BD Episode IV on Black Metal was a legit desert island pick of mine for a few years, there, 2013~16... maybe it still is, actually. Legit 1CC intensity, with a very Metal Slug resource curve; building up certain ammo types, then HWAAAAAA unleashing a mighty load! (I also recommend using DoomBuilder to nix those lame late-episode Invulnerabilities, which are blatantly placed to obviate Cyberdemons)

Even the much milder E1~3 benefit, the monsters' new tricks heavily correcting their milquetoast placements... I remember the Caco that lurks in the exit of E2M6's false end deciding he was gonna move elsewhere, and feeling absolute unease as I turned to find the fucker lunging straight at me, just barely popping the bastard before he could eat me alive with his new random lunge (memorialised here in this very thread! ). As mentioned there, the janky respawn in that rev is also cool, especially in E2's nervily winding passages... 95% of stuff stays dead, but there's always the slight risk of a pincer erupting in the worst goddamn place!

But yeah, I offended a few peeps here when I went "WAW, ULTIMATE DOOM IS RAD AGAIN" after they assumed I was on the "ONLY WAY 2 PLAY" train. Which always sounded ill-advised to me... surely you wouldn't play someone's Vanilla-balanced map, via someone else's completely different mod?

I'm sure people do that, but people are dumb. 3; People also told me "PSH, PLAY NIGHTMARE IF U WANT HARD" and I had to explain I was single-sessioning Nightmare sans KBM before I could fuckin bust That shit doesn't impress me! In fact, it makes me BUTTMAD I'd also have to explain that Vanilla Ultimate NM becomes a vehicular combat game anyway

[guigui]

Not that entertaining to me. Need to either try with a mouse, or try other games that allow more precise possibilities when it comes to killing things.

I was gonna ask if you were on gamepad or KBM; the latter might improve your opinion a lot. I can just about enjoy FPSs on gamepad, but it's a conscious effort; KBM, with movement and aiming fully decoupled, is surgically-precise by comparison.

Sure I should definitely give this a try. Not playing on PC anytime soon though, so will ask Nintendo to release a mouse controller on the Switch and play FPS in many years.

[Lander]

Stick aiming in shooters is quite painful. Even with generous assists, it feels more like trying to pilot a BattleMech than a trained space marine.
Do the ports support gyro aiming? That should be nice and precise if it's available, though seems a criminally underrepresented feature going off the last few years of Switch / PS4.

Speaking of gameplay WADs, I always had a soft spot for arrange-style ones designed to remap the base game's monster / weapon / encounter setups into a new gameplay model. Though naturally, very hit-or-miss.
I recall one that remodeled the game into a Rainbow Six style tactical creep with locational damage, realistic TTK, and a wound system that doomed you even harder for the slightest mistake. Impressive ambition, but not a bit of fun. Our co-op squad broke down into bickering before ever reaching MAP02
Goofy fun wise, there was an almost rogue-y one that converted each weapon / enemy type into a big random bag that would pick from a set of variants on spawn, resulting in total chaos for the duration. Plasma chainguns, novelty BFGs, and fifty different flavors of imp

I wonder, did anyone ever play the Contra-style total conversion that made everything into instakill projectiles with a lives system? Can't remember it's name, but it was quite a big deal in the scene when it released iirc. Really well done, and unashamedly arcade-hard.

This also annoyed modders whose work either relied on or was balanced around the base game. They would feel maligned that their work was either being ignored by people because it didn't go with BD or was in a way having their work scoffed at for favoring vanilla. And it made some modders double down by aggressively making sure you couldn't play their work with BD in the form of crashes, to trolling, to even jumpscares if you tried running some WADs with BD. Maybe a little salty but I can get the core annoyance.

That sentiment is still alive and well - selected parts of the Quake mapping scene got quite the bee in their bonnet when Dusk added the ability to load old BSPs as community maps. Rounds of applause at its collision system breaking and dropping players under the map
Non-balance aside it seemed relatively harmless on the face of it, but then you get into the mire of randoms uploading other people's work to the Steam workshop without credit, and immediately close the tab to avoid witnessing another go-round of well-worn internet arguing.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Stick aiming in shooters is quite painful. Even with generous assists, it feels more like trying to pilot a BattleMech than a trained space marine.

I don't particularly mind it, but I think it's important that the game is built with console controls in mind. It doesn't fare so well when the game is a straight PC port to console, but there are many first person and third person shooters with stick controls in mind and built around that. Vanquish, EDF, Turok: Rage Wars, Doom 64. The Descent games in particular work great with stick control I found as it makes everything comfy and accessible on a gamepad, and your weapons generally have a wide enough spread that pinpoint precision from a mouse is unnecessary.

Quake 64 was one I found was frankly too demanding and played way better on the PC, as it was more or less a port with a few levels removed (iirc). Some of the aiming required was tricky to do quickly on the N64's controller, but Quake II 64, the sequel, has levels made from scratch for the console, and as such feels better built around the control limitations and the enemy placements feel better suited for the more limited controller.

[Lander]

I don't particularly mind it, but I think it's important that the game is built with console controls in mind. It doesn't fare so well when the game is a straight PC port to console, but there are many first person and third person shooters with stick controls in mind and built around that. Vanquish, EDF, Turok: Rage Wars, Doom 64. The Descent games in particular work great with stick control I found as it makes everything comfy and accessible on a gamepad, and your weapons generally have a wide enough spread that pinpoint precision from a mouse is unnecessary.

Quake 64 was one I found was frankly too demanding and played way better on the PC, as it was more or less a port with a few levels removed (iirc). Some of the aiming required was tricky to do quickly on the N64's controller, but Quake II 64, the sequel, has levels made from scratch for the console, and as such feels better built around the control limitations and the enemy placements feel better suited for the more limited controller.

I'm cool with shooters that are designed from the ground up around pad controls. Though my criteria for that generally necessitates a decoupled autoaim system like Goldeneye or ReCore that prevents aiming from directly interfering with movement. If the reticle is a point locked to center-screen, no amount of fat magnetic bullets or adaptive sensitivity can fix the head-on-a-gimbal-and-arms-in-plastercast problem that make a man feel like a robot (or indeed, a 6DOF spaceship as per Descent).

And I've never been one for balancing down if a game's encounters have to be reengineered around control limitations, then the controls probably aren't very good. Case in point, I watched a bit of original Q264 to remind myself of its differences, and the footage was pure stop-and-pop grenade launcher doorfighting - not very Quakey at all, even for the relatively slow-paced 2.

Granted, any kind of ergonomics-based rework is going to result in a different game, but I find the lowest-common-denominator solution the industry has settled on tends to result in dumbed-down results that lose some facet of their source material.

[Sengoku Strider]

I don't know if any of you have been following the furor around Destiny 2, but Bungie put out a State of the Game update where they basically said they're only putting minimal effort into PvP going forward, and sidelining Gambit (PvPvE) from the ritual (core game modes) playlist altogether. Their honest rationale is that they can sell new PvE expansions and season passes, but can't monetize PvP in the same way without fracturing the player base. And Gambit's 100k daily players are somehow not enough to justify putting effort into it. One almost wonders if Sony's $3.7 billion acquisition of Bungie had their beancounters losing their minds and looking to cut costs to recoup that. Unsurprisingly the community was up in arms, which led to the YouTube SERIOUS GAMING CONTROVERSY vulture channels swooping in and blowing it up.

HOT TAKE ALERT: I mention the vultures because as a player since Taken King, what remains clear to me is that thanks to constant updates keeping pace with contemporary game design over several years this remains far and away the best overall FPS ever made. Really. I think it has the best gunplay out there, with hundreds of hours of unique content and a world so massive they had to put a bunch of it in the vault because it was breaking console hard drive limits (seriously, at one point it was taking up 70% of my 500 GB PS4). It has playstyles that cover the spectrum, fantastic art design, thousands of pages of pretty well-written lore books (though admittedly the in-game dramatic cutscenes have been more hit and miss depending on the writing teams). It has buildcrafting that's become so intense that when I picked up Bloodborne again the other day it felt like an NES game by comparison. I haven't been able to go back to Halo, it feels like the discount bootleg version of Destiny now. Players have always bitched about Destiny going back to year 1, but it's because they're hardcore no-lifers who can't put the game down; it comes from a place of affection (and severe dopamine deficiency from skinner boxing their brains to death). Really, I watched a video the other day with some big time general gaming YouTuber complaining about the state of Destiny 2 with the proviso that he's just a casual player because he only has 1500 hours in the game, then reminisced about how some of the best times he ever has in gaming is annually staying up for 24 hours with his friends on day-one raid attempts.

ANYWAY

I think the announcement hints at a few things:

1. From before D1 launched, Bungie said that Destiny was a 10-year project. They took a lot of jabs for that at the time, but 2024 and The Final Shape expansion will mark year 10 and the climax of the story they started with. It's gone on so long that the main NPC, Commander Zavala's voice actor (and The Wire legend) Lance Reddick passed this year.

2. Bungie announced a Marathon reboot in May, which will be a PvP extraction shooter that (to me) sounds similar to The Division's Dark Zone. It makes sense that the people in charge want the PvP player base to migrate to something built from the ground up for PS5 that's better able to grow and monetize them.

3. 40 million people have downloaded D2 across all platforms. The community during healthy times has been over 1 million daily players. Even as it's been losing players over the past year, it's still been in the 6-700k range. It's too big for Sony to just ditch it, but at the same time it would make sense if they're looking at putting caretaker teams in place after Final Shape, while the A-teams are shifted over to Marathon. This might well be them setting expectations for that ahead of time.

There's no reason to think Marathon won't be great (it, Halo and Destiny are all part of the same multiversal story, and artifacts and lore references from Marathon have appeared in the Destiny timeline since the beginning), and if Destiny rides off into the content treadmill sunset I can hardly complain that I didn't get enough out of it. But I do hope that if all this speculation is right, that they go out strong with Final Shape. I haven't bought the last expansion yet, Lightfall, because of how uninspired its environment and premise seem. Maybe when it's 60% off.

[Lander]

I'll preface that I haven't kept up with Destiny 2 since, uh... An expansion that's no longer listed on the website. Warmind? Whichever was the last one before they killed Nathan Drake.

I can give it credit for the great gunplay, and keeping Halo-esque multiplayer alive in the wake of 343 Industries, but best FPS ever is a mighty high bar to clear. And a slippery one at that - what qualitative axes can be used to measure a kitchen sink MMOishFPS that does a bit of everything up against its traditionally-orthogonal SP and MP genre peers?

Particularly when the service model and vaulting system render 'Destiny' into a somewhat transient concept. Was Destiny 2 '19 the best ever, or was it Destiny 2 '21? Pre or post <Major Patch>? Can I go back and check?

Breaking console storage limits through sheer quantity is an impressive statistic, but reeks of PR. You can stream game assets over the internet just like video, for less bandwidth cost, and cache hot data locally to minimize network I/O. Yet local storage limitation is the angle instead of the likely more truthful "we built too high too fast and can't afford the maintenance debt"? Psh.

And if losing access to entire campaigns isn't a big deal, were they actually worthwhile in the first place, or merely 'content' in the most modern sense of the term?

I mean gosh, imagine the hoo-ha if Knee Deep In The Dead ended up MIA sorry lads, no more E1M1 in this remaster - it just wasn't iconic enough to fit in next to the brand new Episode 5: Demon Machine (feat. MachineGames and Sandy Petersen.)

Granted, Red War versus Grandpa Doom isn't a particularly fair comparison (though losing that awesome spaceship mission is a shame), but it had better keep being the best FPS ever forever if it's going to do a Disney and take chunks of itself out of the running for the foreseeable!

Maybe when it's 60% off.

[Sima Tuna]

The best looter-shooter imo is either borderlands 1 or borderlands 2/TPS. It depends what you personally value more: good and frequent loot drops or more polished presentation, gunplay and story elements.

Both games have tons of content, although BL2 far outstrips BL1 in that regard. I won't say it's more than Destiny but it's not a live service either. You buy it once and you're done. 500+ hours of content for 10 bux or whatever the handsome collection costs. Which reminds me, you usually don't buy borderlands 2 by itself. It usually comes in a pack WITH BL1 and The Pre-Sequel. So the choice between BL1 and BL2 isn't a choice at all. You get both so you can play both.

I totally understand not liking borderlands' cringe humor, but the gameplay is top quality.

But borderlands isn't the best shooter of all time. That honor would probably belong to a masterfully-crafted, but shorter experience. Too much bloat dilutes the quality of a game IMO. It's very hard to make a long game with a lot of content that retains a high watermark for the quality of that content. I can think of a few but most are RPGs, survival or tactical games.

For FPS games, I love the original Halo: CE. When I think about past retro FPS, I can usually pinpoint a few brilliant episodes mixed with some mediocre or bad ones. DOOM II is a perfect example. The weapon balance is flawless and the new enemy types do a lot to vary up encounters from original DOOM. But the level design is shit. DOOM has great level design but it is limited somewhat by a small enemy pool and no super shotgun. DUKE 3D is a personal favorite FPS of mine, but the 2nd and 4th episodes are not good. QUAKE is excellent all-around but lacks good bosses or any fun large enemies other than the Shambler. FEAR and Halo 1 are probably neck-and-neck (for me) in overall high quality. Halo CE is a pretty short game but MOST of the levels are top notch (we don't talk about the Library.) I don't remember FEAR's levels as well but there are moments from the game that stick with me, like the first time you fight a giant mech. Enemy design in both FEAR and Halo is awesome.

[XoPachi]

I only liked Destiny 2's environmental design and gunplay. But I got bored VERY fast. And them removing entire chunks of the game is utterly ridiculous to me.

I'm in the camp of preferring Borderlands more. I can't go back to BL1 but 2, PS, and 3 are my favorites in terms of lootin shootin. My Maya in 2 was so absurdly powerful. The surprise free DLC like 5 years later leading up to 3 was a real treat.

[BIL]

JFC, PS4 Quake II is B U S S I N (◎w◎;) Chronophagistic like it's 1997 OBJECTIVE: FIND A POWERFUL WEAPON Only meant to do Unit 1 but ended up halfway through Unit 3.



Faack, the secret hunting is compulsive. I was so inordinately proud of nabbing that early SSG from the depths BITD. Will always associate Q2's campaign with a particularly valiant comeback effort on the 1P front. Q1's bunnyrocketing gorno wuxia is by far the mechanically more compelling; Q2's slower-paced, more gravity-bound scoot n' shoot feels comfily quaint by comparison. But in structural and aesthetic terms, it's an admirable recapitulation of DOOM's legendary solidity, even as Deathmatch remained ascendant.

Went in on Hard, wondered if I should dial down - a bit more hitscanny and cover-imperative than I recalled - but soon settled in. An exceptionally smooth xenoindustrial slaughterfest. I was disappointed by the the less explosively-pressurised gibs BITD - no more merrily bouncing chunks - but I see what they were going for now, with not just explosives but ballistics and energy weapons unceremoniously chewing enemies into mahfuckin dogfood as battle rages.

BIG DOGFOOD CO of STROGGOS WEST NEBRASKA Present:

It's been so long, I'm constantly going "Did they do that in the OG?" with enemies; the confirmed case, MC TRESPASSAH's promotion from Pinky nuisance to Q1 Fiend-esque harrier, is interesting. I do agree with video review bro that his new BANDIT REVOLVA's hitbox is a little oversized; deceptively tricky to evade clean. However, it seems proximity-triggered; stay at close range, and you can whiff him like the ol' days. An interesting way to turn a previous non-entity into a ranking threat; if you can't close distance due to other concerns, seeking cover is advisable.

I never figured out how to authoritatively deal with Parasites BITD, still hate the fuckers. Who gives the Dog enemy quasi-hitscan? Grr! I did do a pretty shaweet hop-over one's harpoon though. Made me think of the Shadow stun trick in DMC1. Maybe that was it? Their pain sound is still perversely adorable. "Rooo!"

I don't normally care much about dev materials - I should, but horrible memories of the jankfest that is SNK 40th Anniversary leave me cold. In a solid translation, though? This is compellingly done. Lots of preview clips, lovably scruffy design docs rescued from dusty corners, and even playable beta maps, in addition to an excellent model viewer for just about everything. Blows my goddamn mind, to think Wolf3D and Quake II were separated by a paltry five years, with Heretic, Hexen, and Hexen II fitting into that same span. A child's perspective, eh? Felt like a whole damn epoch back then.

Massive Meat On Full Display

WEST SIEEEEDE



As expected, they've some rough edges to buff out. The options menu, while thorough, sometimes feels tenuously-related to the underlying game; couldn't disable the positional damage indicators, despite setting them to "OFF." I don't really mind them, I just prefer to go without. And they really need a mouse sensitivity slider, not to mention an Invert Look. PS4 Quake launched with KBM coded but deactivated, and is now superb post-patch, so I'm sure they'll get it perfect. All too infernally compelling as-is. Performance feels great; lightning-fast and rock-solid, with near-zero loadtimes.

the brand new Episode 5: Demon Machine (feat. MachineGames and Sandy Petersen.)

I did wonder about that eponymous calling card, blearily twigging a pattern after a crash course in Nightdive Think of the possibilities, like MACHINE IN THE MACHINE and A MACHINE FOR MACHINES (quality works to be sure - you won't hear me echoing Ed Harris's famously furied declamation from sweary machismo spectacular
Glengarry Glen Ross!)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Went in on Hard, wondered if I should dial down - a bit more hitscanny and cover-imperative than I recalled - but soon settled in.

Is Nightmare (Hard+) still available? I know it used to be locked to a console setting only, you couldn't access it from the menu.

Q2 I think is at its hardest in the first 3-6 levels when you don't have many resources, and a lot of the enemies are hitscan. However, it's not really the bullshit kind of hitscan, with shotgun and machinegun goons being easily staggered, and the bigger enforcer boys going down easily to machinegun or shotgun fire.

Will be interested to hear if the remake changes it at all, but normally halfway into the game you can pick up Power Armor, a permanent defense upgrade that consumes a measly amount of cells to make you WAY more resilient to damage (and also helps your physical armor last that much longer). By the time you get that, you're very, very difficult to kill, and essentially a one-man army. I find with careful play you're more likely to be killed by a trap than an enemy from there.

I never figured out how to authoritatively deal with Parasites BITD, still hate the fuckers.

Memorize their positions and toss hand grenades. Two close range super shotties also put 'em down if you get the drop on 'em, a quick spin of the chaingun does 'em in, etc. Fortunately you can get the SSG soon after you start encountering them, so the pain of trying to deal with them using a basic shotgun or machinegun is short-lived. Their range also kinda sucks, so you can backpedal as soon as you hear them, or get some vertical distance as their vertical aim seems to be bad.

Fortunately they never rise to the level of Descent's drillers that pound you with hitscan shots clear across the room the moment you enter line of sight and exist as the biggest threat in the game after showing up in level 6 or 7. >w<

Interesting to see the new enemy behavior in the remake. Is there a toggle for old vs new enemy behavior? The jumping Gladiators and the crazy, unpredictable spread the Gunners have on their grenades have instead of the focused but easily strafeable barrage looks fun.

[BIL]

Went in on Hard, wondered if I should dial down - a bit more hitscanny and cover-imperative than I recalled - but soon settled in.

Is Nightmare (Hard+) still available? I know it used to be locked to a console setting only, you couldn't access it from the menu.

Yep! Pleased to say Nightmare is right there at the New Game menu. It's been so long I wouldn't have remembered Hard+, haha.

Q2 I think is at its hardest in the first 3-6 levels when you don't have many resources, and a lot of the enemies are hitscan. However, it's not really the bullshit kind of hitscan, with shotgun and machinegun goons being easily staggered, and the bigger enforcer boys going down easily to machinegun or shotgun fire.

I'm really liking the use of stagger here. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, with Q1's grunts also being trivial to knock about; big difference I suppose is Q2's are considerably deadlier, with their heavier armaments, sprinting movement, and running attacks; so it feels a lot more meaningful to knock them out of a would-be magdump. It's also just hella satisfying knocking the shit out of enemies with sledgehammering pointblank SSG, a weapon whose monstrous presence symbolises id's determination to banish that muddled Q1 ennui.

I never figured out how to authoritatively deal with Parasites BITD, still hate the fuckers.

Memorize their positions and toss hand grenades. Two close range super shotties also put 'em down if you get the drop on 'em, a quick spin of the chaingun does 'em in, etc. Fortunately you can get the SSG soon after you start encountering them, so the pain of trying to deal with them using a basic shotgun or machinegun is short-lived. Their range also kinda sucks, so you can backpedal as soon as you hear them, or get some vertical distance as their vertical aim seems to be bad.

Seems like vertical superiority is the way to go - also, could they run on the ceilings before? They do now! I'm hopelessly out of practice with this game's finer points, haha.

EDIT: Oh shit From the official release notes: dodge Parasite tongue lashings which will now stick into the wall, temporarily stunning them. Sounds like a plan That must've been what happened to the ones I hopped over, nice long window to land 2xSSG.

Fortunately they never rise to the level of Descent's drillers that pound you with hitscan shots clear across the room the moment you enter line of sight and exist as the biggest threat in the game after showing up in level 6 or 7. >w<

I wish Nightdive would give Descent a go, that's my second-biggest want after Hexen II. I only ever played the sequel BITD, liked it but kinda drifted off. There's just this innate satisfaction in getting PC-quality FPSs to go with arcade-perfect STGs et al, you know? 12y/o me and his shitty 32X DOOM (well... ok in a hard spot, but any rando 486 blew the doors off it) will always get a kick out of that.

Interesting to see the new enemy behavior in the remake. Is there a toggle for old vs new enemy behavior? The jumping Gladiators and the crazy, unpredictable spread the Gunners have on their grenades have instead of the focused but easily strafeable barrage looks fun.

I could swear a video reviewbro mentioned there being toggles, but I don't think I've seen any. It'd definitely be welcome, just for reference standards... on the other hand, I seem to recall the DLC weapons now appear in the base 1P campaign, so maybe not. Going by their previous stuff, things are bound to change quite a bit over the next few months via patches. Even more ~Real PC Feel~

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Seems like vertical superiority is the way to go - also, could they run on the ceilings before? They do now!

JESUS. That's the stuff of nightmares right there. They definitely did not go on ceilings before! Sounds like every enemy's been given a new gimmick.

I've actually played a lot of Q2, so I'm very familiar with the main campaign. Spent many hours playing CoopOrDie, basically a permadeath PvE server where the main campaign has a heavily beefed up enemy count and where if you get killed you have to restart the game from scratch, I have the spots where you can use Invulnerability to avoid instadeath lasers memorized.

on the other hand, I seem to recall the DLC weapons now appear in the base 1P campaign, so maybe not

Eh, that's fine I guess. Everyone who wants a definitive original PC experience can still access the original game easily enough, this release is more Black Label style for old vets who want a fresh take I guess!

[Lander]

Huh, I must have Mandela Effect'd myself into thinking Nightdive had already remastered Descent no silly, that was Forsaken.
Speaking of, worth a crack? Might shortlist it for next time the flightstick comes out of storage; all I remember from BITD is nah it's rubbish let's play Mario Party.

The Q2 roster tweaks are interesting - Shadow Man got a similar treatment for its 2.0 patch, but ended up locking the remixed stage layouts and enemy behaviours behind a new super hard mode. Bit of a bust really, since the accompanying rebalance plows into cautious cover shooter territory. Making it available in the base game seems a smarter call, but a toggle would be the golden solution.

I find it odd on some level; SM had a boatload of known cut content that ended up restored and rejigged in Remastered 1.0, which came off as building the definitive version to right a long-standing wrong. Whereas Q2 always seemed pretty complete, though mustn't grumble - seems like a fun option.

More mileage for Expansion weapons (DLC!? For shame, Roo ) is nice too - always something I thought should be standard for games that build out post-release, though hindsight makes it easier to see why you wouldn't.

I did wonder about that eponymous calling card, blearily twigging a pattern after a crash course in Nightdive Think of the possibilities, like MACHINE IN THE MACHINE and A MACHINE FOR MACHINES (quality works to be sure - you won't hear me echoing Ed Harris's famously furied declamation from sweary machismo spectacular
Glengarry Glen Ross!)

Lemme tellya, they'll be named into a corner when the remaster tide shifts toward beloved '91 id classic, Commander Keen 5: The Armageddon Machine. Fuhgeddaboudit!

Indeed, a few pokes to the metallic ribs in good fun classics-wise, the FUCK YOU! FUCKIN'... FUCK. FUCK ALLA YOU *doorslam* treatment is reserved for Grease Lich Pitchford and his ongoing abuse of the Duke franchise.

[BIL]

I've actually played a lot of Q2, so I'm very familiar with the main campaign. Spent many hours playing CoopOrDie, basically a permadeath PvE server where the main campaign has a heavily beefed up enemy count and where if you get killed you have to restart the game from scratch, I have the spots where you can use Invulnerability to avoid instadeath lasers memorized.

Jesus, that sounds hardcore I've been enjoying playing with area-start autosaves only, but I was hovering over the quicksave when I ran into that "Hop this motherfucker!" instakill floor grid, early in the prison. Was inordinately satisfied when I went "Nah, they couldn't expect you to do that shit" and retreated to discover they, indeed, did not expect you to do that shit. Commence amphibious infiltrations! Breaking into a prison is a pretty amusing concept from the house Wolf3D built, now I think about it!

More mileage for Expansion weapons (DLC!? For shame, Roo ) is nice too - always something I thought should be standard for games that build out post-release, though hindsight makes it easier to see why you wouldn't.

Ah jeeze I swear I meant it in a prestige The Auld Hunters sense, not the nickel-and-diming Pretend Fresh Fruits one!

I was just thinking the other day, while hauling me glorious ol' id/Raven bigboxes out of storage, the sheer old-world heft these modern remasters represent. DOOM, DOOM II, Quake, and Quake II plus Final DOOM, Scourge, Dissolution, Reckoning and Ground Zero, plus three N64 ports, is a nice fat shelf. Would be a pain in the neck to ship, tbh!

(a mark of dubious pride! to this day, whenever I exit any of those DOS versions and see the ever-jocular "You better not be pirating this, asshole~!" outros, I remember that for a good 50% of those years I was, in fact, sailin teh briney deeps upon crummy 3M Copy That Floppies )

I'd love to see them get Wolf3D + SOD and the Heretic/Hexen bunch in there too, just for a comprehensive digital anthology of id/Raven 92~98. It was such a tidy little epoch, in hindsight. Genealogy of MURDER SIMULATIONS

[Lander]

Whoops, missed my shot

Internet pedantry, pad aiming style. Sorry, Roo! (ʘᗩʘ’)

I can see them giving Heretic and Hexen a shine-up. The latter could certainly use some Nightdive-signature QoL boosts to soften its arcane puzzle mechanisms.

I wonder about Wolf. It deserves a pass on principle alone, but I get the sense that its age and relative simplicity might have it on the back burner a while. Though RoTT got Ludicrous Edition, and that's not too far removed from the genre roots.
Wonder if they'll end up cleaning out the id archive to the point where Catacomb and Hovertank get their time in the limelight

And ah, old school piracy warnings, so much more fun than the manacles that come as standard these days! Though I recall seeing some rather unfriendly ones from less consummately professional outlets. If you pirate this I will FIND YOU! - crikey

Not that a young would-be corsair'd know any better either, absent the bouncy text, balls and tunes of TEH SCEEN exerting its corruptive influence

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Internet pedantry, pad aiming style. Sorry, Roo! (ʘᗩʘ’)

loool

I wonder about Wolf. It deserves a pass on principle alone, but I get the sense that its age and relative simplicity might have it on the back burner a while.

I wonder. There's certainly enough love of oldschool FPSes that there's be interest, but I'm not sure there'd be enough interest to actually profit off it? This Q2 reimagining may be a way of them testing the waters?

[BIL]

Heh, it was Triad that got me thinking Wolf3D might have a Pac-Man ghost of a chance. I'd snap it up just for official WASD strafekeys. These days I tend to play the total conversion for ZDOOM, which has not only sidestep, but also a sorely-needed fix: solid doors! As opposed to the OG's, which turn vapor when sliding open. I suppose some might argue blindly spraying through them to kill Nazis on the other side is part of Wolf3D's primal immediacy (while betting against them doing similar to you, sans visual handicap!); but I thought it a fly in the ointment right from primary school, when the shareware ver ruined my mind.

In open combat, provided you're playing with a mouse for fine turning control, I've found it's gained an almost Gun Shooting purity. Just be quick on the draw, artfully sweeping the chaingun over the crowd, and reap a vivid plush carpet of annihilated Schutzstaffel (pops real purdy on the flat-shaded floor ). The X-TREEM pointblank damage multiplier is an appropriately arcadey wrinkle, although having said that, I can't recall if it applies to your shots (sure as shit applies to theirs!). Easier to connect at any rate! Hans and Johannes gone down? Rush forth and finish off Bohepans with a mighty contact fusilade! And man, those SFX are immortal. "AIEEE!" Sorry Fritz!

Speaking of pointblank, that Spear of Destiny zombie maze was legit intense Only played it relatively recently via the TC, was impressed. The fuckers being dead silent, and mass-alerted from the first gunshot, the blind 90' corners actually added to the experience. IIRC there's a few random dead guards in that area, an early frisson of DOOM's evil jungle of smashed Cacos and hanging Barries. Actually... I don't think even poor DOOMguy ever had the grim resort of eating gibs off the floor when at critical HP Nein so vaaas! *you are now hearing the floorslurping SFX*

Dispassionately speaking, it's perhaps that signature grindhouse-for-grognards aesthetic that most secures Wolf3D's place in id mythology. While its game design and tech are clearly rough outlines of things to come, when it comes to knowingly black-comedic brutality, it's arguably the Video Nastiest they ever got. A dubious yet undeniable forte; maybe do a "LEGACY OF ID" twofer with Commander Keen, so the young'ns can marvel at that dude you chainsaw 4x in DOOM II having his own canonically-related series.

[Austin]

Hey @BIL, have you ever messed around with some of the more intense, slaughter-based DOOM II WADs? I.e., something like Sunder? Example: https://youtu.be/N7qqgakOBNI?t=758

It's not for everyone, but it definitely takes DOOM to a whole other level gameplay-wise. Really forces you to think about infighting and setting up optimal routes/strategies for specific fights. And of course, being mega-efficient at dodging, like in a STG.

Heh, it was Triad that got me thinking Wolf3D might have a Pac-Man ghost of a chance. I'd snap it up just for official WASD strafekeys. These days I tend to play the total conversion for ZDOOM, which has not only sidestep, but also a sorely-needed fix: solid doors! As opposed to the OG's, which turn vapor when sliding open. I suppose some might argue blindly spraying through them to kill Nazis on the other side is part of Wolf3D's primal immediacy (while betting against them doing similar to you, sans visual handicap!); but I thought it a fly in the ointment right from primary school, when the shareware ver ruined my mind.

Aw man, I love the not-solid doors, haha. Adds an extra element of skill when you know it's there and you play around it. I can see how it can be frustrating to newcomers though.

In open combat, provided you're playing with a mouse for fine turning control, I've found it's gained an almost Gun Shooting purity. Just be quick on the draw, artfully sweeping the chaingun over the crowd, and reap a vivid plush carpet of annihilated Schutzstaffel (pops real purdy on the flat-shaded floor ). The X-TREEM pointblank damage multiplier is an appropriately arcadey wrinkle, although having said that, I can't recall if it applies to your shots (sure as shit applies to theirs!). Easier to connect at any rate! Hans and Johannes gone down? Rush forth and finish off Bohepans with a mighty contact fusilade! And man, those SFX are immortal. "AIEEE!" Sorry Fritz!

Wolf 3D has this amazing layer of precision to it, especially when played on original hardware with keyboard and mouse. The game was designed for 70hz screens, so you can zip around ridiculously fast, it's still so satisfying especially when you know what you are doing/are experienced with the game. Much faster than DOS DOOM which runs at half the framerate out of the box.

I'd love to play it on a modern 120hz and up display and see how it feels, assuming the source port (ECWolf) supports higher than 60hz displays (I would assume it does). I only have a 60hz LCD so I can't test, but I do still rock a 70hz CRT for my old DOS/Windows PC rigs and the game feels amazing there.

Speaking of pointblank, that Spear of Destiny zombie maze was legit intense Only played it relatively recently via the TC, was impressed. The fuckers being dead silent, and mass-alerted from the first gunshot, the blind 90' corners actually added to the experience. IIRC there's a few random dead guards in that area, an early frisson of DOOM's evil jungle of smashed Cacos and hanging Barries. Actually... I don't think even poor DOOMguy ever had the grim resort of eating gibs off the floor when at critical HP Nein so vaaas! *you are now hearing the floorslurping SFX*

I went all the way through Spear of Destiny a few months back and I can concur, that maze is rough. I died quite a lot of times there. Lots of tight corridors. That combined with no callouts from the zombies, it's super easy to get caught off guard.

[BIL]

The wildest I've ever gotten was Scythe Which finally broke me with its final map Fire And Ice, a big difficulty spike IIRC; I tried first-timing it sans saves - now I'd have allocated myself at least one - and ended up dropping it. I still have the rough layout in my head, those plazas with insane numbers of Mancubi, Arachnotrons and Hell Knights.

The custom mapper scene is why I'd pick DOOM II for a desert island stay, assuming mods are allowed; the refinement on the best stuff is spectacular indeed.

[Austin]

The wildest I've ever gotten was Scythe Which finally broke me with its final map Fire And Ice, a big difficulty spike IIRC; I tried first-timing it sans saves - now I'd have allocated myself at least one - and ended up dropping it. I still have the rough layout in my head, those plazas with insane numbers of Mancubi, Arachnotrons and Hell Knights.

The custom mapper scene is why I'd pick DOOM II for a desert island stay, assuming mods are allowed; the refinement on the best stuff is spectacular indeed.

Ouch. Yeah, that final map in Scythe is rough. I did a first time/blind stream of it a couple years ago and out of the five or six hours the playthrough took me, I think the last map was a good hour or two of it. It's like a completely different game, with the preceding maps being way more "vanilla". It was a major curveball when I was going through it.

Honestly, save scumming is the way to go at least in order to familiarize yourself with the map. Definitely not the sort of thing that's worth challenging yourself via save-limiting when you're experiencing it for the first time, you'll never get through it.

There are definitely slaughter-map elements to that final map, but it's not what I would call the good/enjoyable kind, at least not for me. More open maps where circle strafing, dodging and infighting is more up my alley, like in that link I posted. I definitely recommend giving Sunder a try in particular. Start from Map 1, it eases you up into stuff like Map 7 (the one linked), and then go from there.

I have lagged behind on my DOOM WAD catchup. Still need to finish Scythe 2 for instance. Apparently its late game maps get pretty over the top, which is mainly the sort of thing I am talking about. But stuff like Sunder is basically like that from start to finish, so it and WADs like it are in a category of their own, whereas ones like Scythe, Alien Vendetta, etc., build up to a small handful of crazy maps like that.

[BIL]

Honestly, save scumming is the way to go at least in order to familiarize yourself with the map. Definitely not the sort of thing that's worth challenging yourself via save-limiting when you're experiencing it for the first time, you'll never get through it.

Agreed - returning from a long stint in arcade stuff, I realised it's very much like credit-feeding to suss out chokepoints and later stages. Better to take the assist and come back stronger, than effortlessly mow through the same 10minute run-up only to slam into the wall for the Nth-millionth time.

Aw man, I love the not-solid doors, haha. Adds an extra element of skill when you know it's there and you play around it. I can see how it can be frustrating to newcomers though.

It's definitely a uniquely threatening angle. The panicky sense of NO REFUGE as a door slides back almost transcends the primitive environment. It's the kind of thing I'd like a toggle for, ideally.

I went all the way through Spear of Destiny a few months back and I can concur, that maze is rough. I died quite a lot of times there. Lots of tight corridors. That combined with no callouts from the zombies, it's super easy to get caught off guard.

At the time, I almost wondered if they meant for you to use the knife, so you wouldn't be dealing with a crawling blind maze of the evil things - but then I tried knifing a zombie, and it didn't go well, so I just white-knuckled it. It was an amazing experience, I'd love to see SOD get a bit of the limelight.

[Austin]

Agreed - returning from a long stint in arcade stuff, I realised it's very much like credit-feeding to suss out chokepoints and later stages. Better to take the assist and come back stronger, than effortlessly mow through the same 10minute run-up only to slam into the wall for the Nth-millionth time.

Yes, exactly. Also, some of these maps take a crazy amount of time to complete, often times as much if not more so than a 1CC on your typical arcade game. Hell, some maps take 90+ minutes in one go without dying.

I try to 1LC/no save certain maps, but generally I'm not that crazy and will drop a save here and there at specific, challenging fights where my chance of survival on the first go is limited. That's generally good enough for me with these more difficult, custom/aftermarket maps in particular. Also, no matter how good you are at herding enemies around, which is something that's pretty important in the bigger maps, DOOM still has its fair share of RNG which can make consistent runs difficult.

[Sengoku Strider]

Joe Blackburn, design lead for Destiny 2 did an emergency unscripted live stream walking back a lot of those announcements, hands shaking, voice cracking and looking for all the world like he was trying to stave off a rolling mental breakdown for 15 minutes and only half succeeding:



I'm guessing someone higher up at Sony got pissed that the nickel & diming they mandated was messaged in such as way as to cost them players, and came down on him hard to "fix" it.

I'll preface that I haven't kept up with Destiny 2 since, uh... An expansion that's no longer listed on the website. Warmind? Whichever was the last one before they killed Nathan Drake.

Yep, Warmind. That was D2 year 1, which was right before they took it from D2 vanilla's soulless Marvel movie writing to kind of amazing with Forsaken and all the Dreaming City stuff, and much needed system reworks across the board.

I can give it credit for the great gunplay, and keeping Halo-esque multiplayer alive in the wake of 343 Industries, but best FPS ever is a mighty high bar to clear. And a slippery one at that - what qualitative axes can be used to measure a kitchen sink MMOishFPS that does a bit of everything up against its traditionally-orthogonal SP and MP genre peers?

Particularly when the service model and vaulting system render 'Destiny' into a somewhat transient concept. Was Destiny 2 '19 the best ever, or was it Destiny 2 '21? Pre or post <Major Patch>? Can I go back and check?

Sure. And it's hardly fair to compare a live service game, which is iterative and will have completely new groups of people working on it over its lifespan, to a one-shot release. But as a player, I still receive the benefits of years of changes and new concepts introduced.

Breaking console storage limits through sheer quantity is an impressive statistic, but reeks of PR. You can stream game assets over the internet just like video, for less bandwidth cost, and cache hot data locally to minimize network I/O. Yet local storage limitation is the angle instead of the likely more truthful "we built too high too fast and can't afford the maintenance debt"? Psh.

Having seen the sizes of all those updates, I'm inclined to believe them. When you add up the strikes, raids and campaign missions those annual expansions are a full AAA game's worth of content, never mind the season pass areas and story on top of that. Even if they share some assets, after years of adding new sandboxes there's no amount of video streaming that's going to fit it onto a 500 GB PS4, Sony has guidelines for system overhead they can't just ignore (though Sony says they expect PS4 to be done by 2025, so maybe that'll change). They did go the streaming route with the Stadia version, and most players hated it. The last thing Destiny needs is more latency and network hitches in a matchmade game without dedicated servers and mountains of in-game dialogue and physics setting off chain reactions all over the place.

And if losing access to entire campaigns isn't a big deal, were they actually worthwhile in the first place, or merely 'content' in the most modern sense of the term?

The upside has been to de-bloat the less important early game. Keep in mind that D2 is already a sequel in an ongoing story with thousands of pages of lore and hours of cutscenes, and it famously passed the point of being a nightmare for onboarding new players a long time ago. It's built to keep having new things for players to discover in hour 2000 or 5000, so I blame nobody who finds it impenetrable at this point. I definitely feel the "you took away stuff that I paid for" angle, but streamlining things by vaulting some content wasn't a bad move in terms of making a more enjoyable overall game. And it's not like that content is lost, they rotate elements of it back in every season after reworking things. They're still working in areas and raids from D1.