As I said, you seemed to have missed that the article is not at all promoting arcade gaming at the expense of console gaming.
So my point is: Before you read things into the article that aren't there, read the real thing first!
icycalm preaches to the choir
Yeah, I realize this is a problem for many people. I could certainly have written the piece in a drier, more considerate and inoffensive style -- there are enough such articles/reviews on my site to show that I am perfectly capable of doing that.PFG 9000 wrote:"I'd like to read further but your style makes it difficult"
However, I had my reasons for using the style that I did. The insults are intended as a challenge -- as taunts -- to beginners to shake them out of complacency. The experts, on the other hand, would understand me regardless of the style I used, so I didn't worry about them.
Also many of the insults are intended as a slap in the face. With all the disrespect being heaped on arcade games by everyone and sundry these days (Senko no Ronde 4/10 -- who the fuck ARE these people?) a slap in the face is nothing less than what many people are asking for.
Moreover, I enjoyed myself more writing it this way. So okay, I lose some readers I guess, but so what? It's not like I am getting paid by page views, you know. I am doing this for my own amusement.
Also, what CIT said.
The article raises a number of interesting points. The section describing a tour through Hey arcade is particularly well-written and accurate, though it should be noted most Japanese arcades are not like that, and many WR holders play in dank, dark, quiet arcades. Overall, the article is too verbose and condescending for its own good, but despite that it is still worth a read. Here are some trouble spots I found (I read all the way through):
-You state in the beginning that you are not using any sort of empirical evidence, statistical or otherwise. The claims you make as pseudo-fact are thus deflated due to the unobjective nature of your argument. You should do some sort of mini-statistical study at the bare minimum (particularly in regards to the quality of console vs. arcade games, “on average”), if the results are in your favor they would bolster your thesis ten-fold. Your explanation that you “do not have time for it” is unconvincing and contradictory, as one can see you obviously have a lot of time to write about your opinions on the topic.
-In regards to Arcades you write “But this magic cannot be recreated outside the environment that gave birth to it -- at least not without conscious and disciplined effort on the part of both developers and players. Because outside the arcade environment there are no arcade operators, and hence the compromise that led to the above formula is not necessary anymore”, and in regards to console games you write “They start to pander to the players: they flatter them, they play to their vanity, they give them elaborate cutscenes and ending cinematics and little useless trinkets”. I do not necessarily disagree with these claims, but in the section titled “Why the East is the best” you write “So even though many were seduced by the cheaper, easier, better-looking console games, many others were not, and these are the ones we have to thank for the survival of the form.”. The claim that the two mediums (Console and Arcade) are mutually exclusive is definitely something I disagree with. Arcade gamers in Japan seem to enjoy console games at home (often inclusive of arcade ports), and Arcade games in the arcades. Yes, this is a generalization on my part, but it is based on the comments from highly skilled Japanese Arcade players. Two examples come immediately to mind:1) in an interview with one of the Ibara DVD players (KMT), he states he never plays any sort of action/Arcade game at home. He only enjoys role-playing games like Star Ocean at home (and he enjoys them frequently); 2) A famous Japanese Ikaruga player named TF! similarly refused to play any arcade type game at home (he would not even buy the DC port of Ikaruga), though he enjoyed a rich variety of console games. His response as to why was simply that he only enjoyed playing Arcade games in an arcade. So in summation, your idea that Arcade gamers only play arcade games and reject console games (and vice versa with Console gamers) is quite unconvincing.
-The most glaring flaw of the whole article is your claim that Japanese gamers never credit feed, for example you state “To understand the essence of arcade gaming you must never continue. Like, ever.” I am sorry to tell you, but this is completely untrue. Many of the top scorers in Japan have stated they sometimes credit feed to practice new strats on later levels, particularly in games with loops, like DDP, Ketsui, and Gunbird 2. SWY, ISO, WIZ, MIR, K.K., TF!, and others are among the list. And look at their scores. It is irrelevant to a Japanese gamer whether someone credit-feeds to practice later stages, or practices on a port at home—all that matters is the highest score achieved on a single credit in the arcade. In addition, when a game is first released numerous players credit feed (I have tons of documented evidence with this in regards to recent Cave games) to see later levels and practice later levels. Perhaps you have not witnessed this first hand, but it is definitely prevalent. You are correct that it is extremely rare to see any Japanese credit-feed simply to “complete” the game, and this is likely one important difference between West versus East arcade gamers, as well as their respective underlying perceptions of what it means to “complete” a game.
-You note that there is an unwritten rule that Japanese gamers are only allowed a single credit before they have to pass on to the next gamer. While I disagree with this if no one is waiting in line (for reasons mentioned earlier), I do agree with it if someone is waiting in line. But an important point is this same practice was absolutely the norm in the early-mid 90s in US arcades. I used to play a lot of fighting games in the arcades then, and people would always line up their quarters on the panel below the Arcade monitor, and no one would ever play more than one credit at a time before passing to the next player’s quarter in line (irrespective as to whether the fighting game was being played in 1P or 2P mode).
Overall your argument is not convincing to me (as it is more of an opinion piece than an argument, and I have provided some evidence that refutes many of your fundamental claims), but like I said you raise a number of interesting points which are ripe for discussion, and in many other parts of the article you raise points which I find valid. And that is why it is a worthwhile read, in my opinion.
-You state in the beginning that you are not using any sort of empirical evidence, statistical or otherwise. The claims you make as pseudo-fact are thus deflated due to the unobjective nature of your argument. You should do some sort of mini-statistical study at the bare minimum (particularly in regards to the quality of console vs. arcade games, “on average”), if the results are in your favor they would bolster your thesis ten-fold. Your explanation that you “do not have time for it” is unconvincing and contradictory, as one can see you obviously have a lot of time to write about your opinions on the topic.
-In regards to Arcades you write “But this magic cannot be recreated outside the environment that gave birth to it -- at least not without conscious and disciplined effort on the part of both developers and players. Because outside the arcade environment there are no arcade operators, and hence the compromise that led to the above formula is not necessary anymore”, and in regards to console games you write “They start to pander to the players: they flatter them, they play to their vanity, they give them elaborate cutscenes and ending cinematics and little useless trinkets”. I do not necessarily disagree with these claims, but in the section titled “Why the East is the best” you write “So even though many were seduced by the cheaper, easier, better-looking console games, many others were not, and these are the ones we have to thank for the survival of the form.”. The claim that the two mediums (Console and Arcade) are mutually exclusive is definitely something I disagree with. Arcade gamers in Japan seem to enjoy console games at home (often inclusive of arcade ports), and Arcade games in the arcades. Yes, this is a generalization on my part, but it is based on the comments from highly skilled Japanese Arcade players. Two examples come immediately to mind:1) in an interview with one of the Ibara DVD players (KMT), he states he never plays any sort of action/Arcade game at home. He only enjoys role-playing games like Star Ocean at home (and he enjoys them frequently); 2) A famous Japanese Ikaruga player named TF! similarly refused to play any arcade type game at home (he would not even buy the DC port of Ikaruga), though he enjoyed a rich variety of console games. His response as to why was simply that he only enjoyed playing Arcade games in an arcade. So in summation, your idea that Arcade gamers only play arcade games and reject console games (and vice versa with Console gamers) is quite unconvincing.
-The most glaring flaw of the whole article is your claim that Japanese gamers never credit feed, for example you state “To understand the essence of arcade gaming you must never continue. Like, ever.” I am sorry to tell you, but this is completely untrue. Many of the top scorers in Japan have stated they sometimes credit feed to practice new strats on later levels, particularly in games with loops, like DDP, Ketsui, and Gunbird 2. SWY, ISO, WIZ, MIR, K.K., TF!, and others are among the list. And look at their scores. It is irrelevant to a Japanese gamer whether someone credit-feeds to practice later stages, or practices on a port at home—all that matters is the highest score achieved on a single credit in the arcade. In addition, when a game is first released numerous players credit feed (I have tons of documented evidence with this in regards to recent Cave games) to see later levels and practice later levels. Perhaps you have not witnessed this first hand, but it is definitely prevalent. You are correct that it is extremely rare to see any Japanese credit-feed simply to “complete” the game, and this is likely one important difference between West versus East arcade gamers, as well as their respective underlying perceptions of what it means to “complete” a game.
-You note that there is an unwritten rule that Japanese gamers are only allowed a single credit before they have to pass on to the next gamer. While I disagree with this if no one is waiting in line (for reasons mentioned earlier), I do agree with it if someone is waiting in line. But an important point is this same practice was absolutely the norm in the early-mid 90s in US arcades. I used to play a lot of fighting games in the arcades then, and people would always line up their quarters on the panel below the Arcade monitor, and no one would ever play more than one credit at a time before passing to the next player’s quarter in line (irrespective as to whether the fighting game was being played in 1P or 2P mode).
Overall your argument is not convincing to me (as it is more of an opinion piece than an argument, and I have provided some evidence that refutes many of your fundamental claims), but like I said you raise a number of interesting points which are ripe for discussion, and in many other parts of the article you raise points which I find valid. And that is why it is a worthwhile read, in my opinion.
Last edited by EOJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
I only read about 10% of this thread, and I've detected about 20 bags of douche already. It's funny to hear elitists calling people elitist.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
Would that be 1 out of every 10 posts, or 1 out of every 10 words in each post? Either way, it definitely seems you're in an excellent position to make an informed opinion on the topic at hand.JoshF wrote:I only read about 10% of this thread,
28 different members have posted in this thread (including me and excluding you). So which 8 of those are not douche bags, according to you? Here's the list for your reference:and I've detected about 20 bags of douche already.
Icycalm
Twiddle
Ed Oscuro
Mannerbot
Never_Scurred
shoe-sama
Dandy J
Rob
Specineff
Jp
Pirate1019
DJ Incompetent
PFG 9000
CIT
Ceph
Bay
Seattlexc
Ghegs
Daigohji
ArrogantBastard
Incognoscente
Neon
GaijinPunch
P_HAT
Undeadair
Acid King
Mortificator
TWE
Nope.Oh hey look, another reference to my post!
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
A picture here and there wouldn't have hurt.
EDIT: I didn't notice you wrote the "10%" thing, I thought you meant the "elitist" thing.
EDIT: I didn't notice you wrote the "10%" thing, I thought you meant the "elitist" thing.
Last edited by JoshF on Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
i've only read about 10% of your post and i've detected about 60 inches of e-penis wavingJoshF wrote:I only read about 10% of this thread, and I've detected about 20 bags of douche already. It's funny to hear elitists calling people elitist.
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
You've finally found your (penis) niche.
Last edited by JoshF on Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
Back in biblical times you would've been decapitated for saying that.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
Quite an accomplishment without a single sodomy.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
Oh, with 20 million dead in a single country we don't even have to be literal when using the term to describe Stalin's policies!
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
aaaaaaaand joshf throws in the towel
check back next time, folks, where we separate the whiny boys who can't accept criticism (of other people) from the men who are learning to (especially the one being defended)
check back next time, folks, where we separate the whiny boys who can't accept criticism (of other people) from the men who are learning to (especially the one being defended)
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
SUP TWE!
okayz, here we go
"Here, in short, is where the seductive powers of the arcade form are currently at their strongest."
When you want to seduce someone you take them to a seductive place!
However, as I mentioned, it would be too much work, and it would be boring work.
Excuse my sarcastic tone, but how the hell am I supposed to respond to stuff like that?
okayz, here we go
I know! That's why I chose to describe HEY.TWE wrote:The section describing a tour through Hey arcade is particularly well-written and accurate, though it should be noted most Japanese arcades are not like that, and many WR holders play in dank, dark, quiet arcades.
"Here, in short, is where the seductive powers of the arcade form are currently at their strongest."
When you want to seduce someone you take them to a seductive place!
I didn't "make claims as pseudo-fact". I made claims as claims. I don't give a flying fuck (pardon my french) about objectivity. I told people things I saw, things I experienced, and things I deduced. That's all there is to it.TWE wrote:The claims you make as pseudo-fact are thus deflated due to the unobjective nature of your argument.
Yeah, I know. I could have compiled a list of MAME roms, rated the games according to some rough quality scale, then done the same for the libraries of several consoles, and then compared their good-stuff-to-crap ratios.TWE wrote:You should do some sort of mini-statistical study at the bare minimum (particularly in regards to the quality of console vs. arcade games, “on average”), if the results are in your favor they would bolster your thesis ten-fold.
However, as I mentioned, it would be too much work, and it would be boring work.
Just because I have time doesn't mean I want to throw it away doing stuff I don't enjoy, I hope you realize. I enjoyed writing the article -- I would not have enjoyed doing the statistical study.TWE wrote:Your explanation that you “do not have time for it” is unconvincing and contradictory, as one can see you obviously have a lot of time to write about your opinions on the topic.
Yeah, me too.TWE wrote:The claim that the two mediums (Console and Arcade) are mutually exclusive is definitely something I disagree with.
Of course they do. Why would anyone think otherwise?TWE wrote:Arcade gamers in Japan seem to enjoy console games at home (often inclusive of arcade ports), and Arcade games in the arcades.
This is my idea? Since when?TWE wrote:So in summation, your idea that Arcade gamers only play arcade games and reject console games (and vice versa with Console gamers) is quite unconvincing.
Excuse my sarcastic tone, but how the hell am I supposed to respond to stuff like that?
Yeah, someone brought this up already in another forum. Here's my reply to him:TWE wrote:-The most glaring flaw of the whole article is your claim that Japanese gamers never credit feed, for example you state “To understand the essence of arcade gaming you must never continue. Like, ever.” I am sorry to tell you, but this is completely untrue. Many of the top scorers in Japan have stated they sometimes credit feed to practice new strats on later levels, particularly in games with loops, like DDP, Ketsui, and Gunbird 2. SWY, ISO, WIZ, MIR, K.K., TF!, and others are among the list. And look at their scores. It is irrelevant to a Japanese gamer whether someone credit-feeds to practice later stages, or practices on a port at home—all that matters is the highest score achieved on a single credit in the arcade. In addition, when a game is first released numerous players credit feed (I have tons of documented evidence with this in regards to recent Cave games) to see later levels and practice later levels. Perhaps you have not witnessed this first hand, but it is definitely prevalent. You are correct that it is extremely rare to see any Japanese credit-feed simply to “complete” the game, and this is likely one important difference between West versus East arcade gamers, as well as their respective underlying perceptions of what it means to “complete” a game.
me wrote: Yeah, right. In fact, those who are going for world records in platformers/shooters/run & guns et al. use continues IN A PARTICULAR WAY when practising at home in order to master the game faster, or they use save states to practice repeatedly certain difficult points in their runs, and they watch superplay DVDs to pick up tips from the best of the best, and read strategy guides instead of trying to figure out everything for themselves -- and in so doing they get better faster of course, but they also turn these games TOO MUCH into sports...
...and something is lost in the processs.
I am not saying it's bad. I've done it myself with certain games -- with those in which I've had a desire to compete at a world-record level. A couple of games at the most.
The rest, though, I take great care not to spoil for myself
But I didn't want to include all the above in the article so as not to confuse the issue too much. Continuing kills these games and that's the end of the story. For the handful of dedicated people who are shooting for world records this is different, but they already know this even better than I do, and anyway these are not the guys I am trying to reach with this piece.
This quote makes no sense G! Of course if no one is waiting in line there is no reason to give up your seat! Who would you give your seat to if there's no one waiting?TWE wrote:-You note that there is an unwritten rule that Japanese gamers are only allowed a single credit before they have to pass on to the next gamer. While I disagree with this if no one is waiting in line (for reasons mentioned earlier), I do agree with it if someone is waiting in line.
Sure, I never suggested otherwise.TWE wrote:But an important point is this same practice was absolutely the norm in the early-mid 90s in US arcades. I used to play a lot of fighting games in the arcades then, and people would always line up their quarters on the panel below the Arcade monitor, and no one would ever play more than one credit at a time before passing to the next player’s quarter in line (irrespective as to whether the fighting game was being played in 1P or 2P mode).
I always take it as a compliment.JoshF wrote:It's funny to hear elitists calling people elitist.
I don't get it. I'm not going to defend Stalin, and you should accept that whatever your premeditated argument was isn't allowed to continue at that point. Maybe you're just trying to break a record and see how many flame wars you can induce in a day.Twiddle wrote:aaaaaaaand joshf throws in the towel
check back next time, folks, where we separate the whiny boys who can't accept criticism (of other people) from the men who are learning to (especially the one being defended)
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
You came in with the obvious intention of starting something so come on start somethingJoshF wrote:I don't get it. I'm not going to defend Stalin, and you should accept that whatever your premeditated argument was isn't allowed to continue at that point. Maybe you're just trying to break a record and see how many flame wars you can induce in a day.Twiddle wrote:aaaaaaaand joshf throws in the towel
check back next time, folks, where we separate the whiny boys who can't accept criticism (of other people) from the men who are learning to (especially the one being defended)
but then again you won't. Typical!
PS TWE don't be contrarian for the sake of being so just because it's icycalm
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays