icycalm preaches to the choir

[JoshF]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8ml00fMJ9ok

I came in with the obvious intention of showing that not everyone here wants to shit on icycalms fæce.

[Rob]

You've posted, what, five-six times already? And what have you contributed?

I had to defend my A+ reputation.

[Twiddle]

I came in with the obvious intention of showing that not everyone here wants to shit on icycalms fæce.

Plenty of people did show that without the even more obvious intention of wanting to start something

I had to defend my A+ reputation.

You will always be S++u (that's japanesu for S++) in my heart rob-chan

[BBH]

*flamebait*

DROP THE ZERO AND GET WITH A HERO

[Twiddle]

go ninja go ninja go
go ninja go ninja go

[icycalm]

Ok, yeah, I get the message guys. If anyone wants to discuss this subject further with me I can be reached by PM or email, or you can start a thread in my forum. (This includes TWE -- sorry, dude, but I can't stand this place any longer.)

[angrycoder]

joy, another asshole with a blog and a misplaced sense of self importance.

Hey everybody, I'm going to tell you how awesome my hobby is by telling everyone else how fucking stupid they are and how every thing they like is shit.

good show.

[jp]

Nevermind. I'm not adding to this.

[GaijinPunch]

Of course if no one is waiting in line there is no reason to give up your seat! Who would you give your seat to if there's no one waiting?

B/c in your article it sounds like you're saying, "All Japanese play 1-credit, and that's it, regardless of circumstance.". Whether you meant it to come off like that, is another story. But, yeah, indeed, it's a myth. You think TAC & ISO sat there and played 1 credit at a time when making the Galuda 2 DVD?

[Bloodreign]

GO TO STAR!

[EOJ]

Arcade gamers in Japan seem to enjoy console games at home (often inclusive of arcade ports), and Arcade games in the arcades.

Of course they do. Why would anyone think otherwise?

So in summation, your idea that Arcade gamers only play arcade games and reject console games (and vice versa with Console gamers) is quite unconvincing.

This is my idea? Since when?

Excuse my sarcastic tone, but how the hell am I supposed to respond to stuff like that?

You state in your article the reason why arcades thrive in japan is because some gamers rejected the console games and chose to play in the arcades. I have already quoted you saying so: "So even though many were seduced by the cheaper, easier, better-looking console games, many others were not, and these are the ones we have to thank for the survival of the form".

As I wrote earlier, this is a big flaw with your argument. I've talked with many Japanese arcade players through email over the years, and I've read many interviews with the top players. Most of them play the "cheaper, easier, better-looking console games" at home, usually the JRPG games with the "drawn out cinematics". The fact of the matter is the Arcade players were equally "seduced" by such games. In light of this, your whole argument collapses.

[Specineff]

Maybe arcades thrive there because they are more easily accessible? The only one I can think about being open in a 10-mile radius is Cyberstation at Metrocenter Mall, over here.

[Never_Scurred]

blah.

waaah

blah.

waaah

more waaah

Long ass blah on waaah.

Don't mean to butt in, but don't you guys have some nice arcades and pcb's to be enjoying?

Since the two of you live in Japan and all......

[undamned]

The only one I can think about being open in a 10-mile radius is Cyberstation at Metrocenter Mall, over here.

Castles 'n' Coasters actually has a decent arcade w/ quite a selection of retro titles still avail. Was just there a couple weeks ago and was still impressed
-ud

[EOJ]

@Never Scurred: You are just behind Fighter17 in terms of worthless, stupid posts. Just a few more and you'll be the new Shmups.com Idiot.

[Dandy J]

NO faggot im cooler

die all d1ck

[Never_Scurred]

@Never Scurred: You are just behind Fighter17 in terms of worthless, stupid posts. Just a few more and you'll be the new Shmups.com Idiot.

Oh dear, I hurt your feelings....need hug, boo?

[Dave_K.]

GO TO STAR!

LOL! This totally made it worth reading through this crap thread.

[Ghegs]

I'll just issue a pre-emptive warning here, I don't want to see the same thing happen here than what happened to those other threads. Flaming and flame-baiting stops here.

-------------------------------------------

(The line. Thou shalt not cross the line.)

[Macaw]

Some of you people are taking the tone of this article way too seriously. Just because you disagree with a few points or think a couple of the headings sound over the top it doesn't mean you should instantly think the article is all elitist drivel.

I think its completely obvious after reading it that Icycalm isn't saying that consoles games suck compared to arcade games, or that Final Fantasy games suck. Its all just broadly referring to the types of people playing these games in order to better illustrate the types of people in Japanese arcades.

[JBC]

Shmups forums Rule #13: When the first person to reply in a thread makes a scathing remark at the OP's expense, the rest of the community has permission to beat the shit out of the OP without fear of repercussion.


"That's a paddlin'"

They should really add that.

[PROMETHEUS]

I agree with most of what Acid King said on page 2 :

I can tap the credit switch on my cab over and over again and "beat" any Cave game in about a half hour. Disregarding the fact that most every arcade game outside of the fighting genre do not take any skill to beat as long as you have enough money, something Icycalm gets around by explaining the "one credit rule" (a principle that could just as easily be applied to many modern action games since all it is is ignoring the built in feature of continues) I think the point that seems to be completely lost in this discussion is that arcade games and console games are designed with different purposes in mind. It's like criticizing ambient music because you can't do spin kicks or wind mills to it.

In other words, fucking stupid. As fucking stupid as saying Ninja Gaiden requires almost no skill or comparing random game quality in a store where literally hundreds of games can fit on shelves (and because of that shitty games can sit unsold for years) to arcades where space is a premium and only successful games can last. I'd make the obligatory "tell me Ninja Gaiden Black takes no skill when you can clear it without using mid level saves on master ninja" call-you-out challenge whenever a bullshit claim is made about a games difficulty or a players skill but I'll try avoid the pattern so many fall into.

I agree, arcade games are designed with steep learning curves and high difficulties to get people to spend money on them. An arcade game that is too easy is worthless to an arcade op and arcade gamers because arcade games themselves only last a short period of time. With console games, the ability to save and the fact that they aren't designed to to eat up your money, allows for longer experiences and lets the games developers toy with format, story telling and play style.

You can spend 100 hours in an arcade trying to clear or ESP Ra.De. or you can spend 100 hours playing Oblivion without ever finishing the game. Sure clearing Ra.De. takes more skill but what the player gets out of it, how the games are experienced and what the games demand from the player and the motivations of the player are so vastly different. It's akin to the difference between reading a book and watching a movie, or walking 10 miles instead of jogging for 5. Sure, jogging takes more training, more skill, more conditioning and is ultimately more work, but what makes that inherently superior to just walking? Any claim as to which format or method produces "superior" material or experience can be rolled up and smoked with the rest of the masturbatory drivel so many use to justify their preferences.

I suppose you could claim that arcades on average do produce better quality games than consoles do because genuinely broken arcade games seem to be fewer and farther between (though the back log of MAME games shows that there are heaps of real fucking shitty arcade games out there) but then again, arcade games are fixed within a handful of genres just as much, if not more so than console games, and are arguably just as derivative as the stuff produced for consoles.

The title of the thread hit the nail on the head. The people you aimed the article at are going to nod in agreement with it and many that don't have a hard on for arcade style games or who actually enjoy modern games are going to take issue with your generalizations and, at times, insulting tone. That seems to be the point of the article judging by the lead in so mission accomplished. I'm with you. Too many people are dismissive of arcade games and they really don't understand the point of skill based games because games today by and large are too easy. Extolling the virtues and the purpose of arcade games shouldn't mean making blanket generalizations and missing the point of modern console games though.

Also, I would add that a game can be very hard while not requiring any skill to clear at all, and that is the case of many arcade games (especially the older ones), which only require you to know every single detail of what you have to perform by heart and execute it. Sadly, even modern games feature that kind of gameplay, but execution became hard and varied (that is where the skill is), as opposed to games like the Punisher that you (icycalm) are mentioning in your article for example.

Games can indeed be interesting for the art they contain, although no one said all games have to be appreciated only for their artistic part. Some are part art, part skill... DMC3 or Ninja Gaiden are like fighting games made simpler and with art in the middle. The Final Fantasy games are all about art. Half-Life 2 or Doom 3 single player modes are very artistic as well. You don't make any point at all saying they suck because they take no skill.

If you are so crazy about skill, I suggest you dig deeper into PC gaming if you haven't : the RTS (Starcraft, Warcraft III...) and FPS (Quake 3 / 4, Counter-Strike...) genres take an INSANE AMOUNT of skill to perform well at. Definitely as much, and actually probably a lot more than your best arcade games (by the way reading you talk about Metal Slug games as skilled games just made me laugh).

So even though your article raised a couple of interesting points, I think most of what you said in there is just giant offensive bullshit.

[PROMETHEUS]

Also I agree with everything TWE said on page 3 ~!

[EOJ]

Also I agree with everything TWE said on page 3 ~!

Glad to hear it. My points stand, as no convincing evidence has been presented to contradict them.

[PROMETHEUS]

Also I agree with everything TWE said on page 3 ~!

Glad to hear it. My points stand, as no convincing evidence has been presented to contradict them.

indeed

[JoshF]

Also, I would add that a game can be very hard while not requiring any skill to clear at all, and that is the case of many arcade games (especially the older ones), which only require you to know every single detail of what you have to perform by heart and execute it. Sadly, even modern games feature that kind of gameplay, but execution became hard and varied (that is where the skill is), as opposed to games like the Punisher that you (icycalm) are mentioning in your article for example.

It seems like you're echoing the same sentiment he mentions in the article about these types of games being thought of as mere button mashers. Since the game has no other important mechanics to learn, I suggest reading a FAQ about the enemy entry points and I'm sure you'll be able to get through the game on your first try. I'd appreciate it if you could videotape this for us too.

DMC3 or Ninja Gaiden are like fighting games made simpler and with art in the middle.

Button mashers.

[KNTain]

Maybe I'm used to reading things by people who come across as dicks, but the tone didn't bother me at all. Didn't totally agree with the article, but I really liked it.

[MX7]

Ok, yeah, I get the message guys. If anyone wants to discuss this subject further with me I can be reached by PM or email, or you can start a thread in my forum. (This includes TWE -- sorry, dude, but I can't stand this place any longer.)

If you use phrases like 'limp wristed fags' in your essays, then you have no right to complain about the quality of the responses in this thread. You said yourself you wanted conlict, and in lieu of seeing any other reason for posting such idiotic statements, I respect your choice of language only so long as you remain here and defend yourself against your detractors, until your thread inevitably gets locked.

Following this, you can write something that does not resort to hyperbole, conjecture, radical, unsupported claims, and at its worst, homophobia. This idiocy NEVER belongs in an academic article.

I think there's some good points in the essay. Edit out the 14 year old schoolboy taunts and do a bit of research to support your argument, and you will regain my respect.

[PROMETHEUS]

Also, I would add that a game can be very hard while not requiring any skill to clear at all, and that is the case of many arcade games (especially the older ones), which only require you to know every single detail of what you have to perform by heart and execute it. Sadly, even modern games feature that kind of gameplay, but execution became hard and varied (that is where the skill is), as opposed to games like the Punisher that you (icycalm) are mentioning in your article for example.

It seems like you're echoing the same sentiment he mentions in the article about these types of games being thought of as mere button mashers. Since the game has no other important mechanics to learn, I suggest reading a FAQ about the enemy entry points and I'm sure you'll be able to get through the game on your first try. I'd appreciate it if you could videotape this for us too.

Nope, read again.

DMC3 or Ninja Gaiden are like fighting games made simpler and with art in the middle.

Button mashers. :shock:

Nope, play again.

[JoshF]

I don't remember him saying anything homophobic. My wrists would be limp too if I played games where controlling with my nose gives me the same result as playing with two hands, when I'm not sitting through 10 minutes of text or FMV. "At its worst" it was an insult about non-reaction-based (or whatever you want to call it) games and the people who will only play them.