Your definition of a shoot-em-up

[God]

Shmup is a poorly defined, overly general misnomer that sounds retarded to say out loud. As a term it's not worth fighting over.

Gradius/R-Type/Ikaruga style games deserve a word so people can talk about them without stumbling over Rez, Yar's Revenge, Smash TV, etc.

-you cant turn around (very few exceptions, im thinking of g.darius)

I don't see G-Darius as an exception. You're still locked in one direction at a time with no direct control over the turning.

I've seen the terms "2D shooting game" combined with "scroll-shooting", "fixed screen shooting", "quarter view shooting" (eg. View Point) or "multi-direction scroll shooting" (eg. Granada) used in Japanese. Pretty accurate description that sums it up and makes further discussion quite unnecessary, in my opinion.

I don't know those example games or Japanese. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Ceph]

Who cares what you understand, you don't even exist. You are but a figment of a weak mind's imagination. Now leave this forum and return from whence you came.

[God]

I'm just saying if you don't want the discussion to drag on and think you have the one true solution then being clear about what you mean will help.

[JoshF]

JoshF seems a bit pissed off about something.

Just providing a counter to the extremism.

What button do I use to jump in Gradius or R-Type?

How do I charge a shot in Gradius? How do I drag Options in R-Type? Jumping is a legitimate mechanic that alters the position of the player (both offensively and defensively) in conjuction with the control direction. Let's disregard this gameplay style because player maneuverability requires button as well as directional input. Also, I suggest reading up on logical fallacy before anyone attempts to use this argument in the future.

Jumping from platform to platform, does not increase your score at any time! It's just how your player moves from place to place. The objectives are still the same as R-Types.

It's more forced-scroll worship, I'd be getting tired of hearing it but it's almost comical at this point.

Shmup is a poorly defined, overly general misnomer that sounds retarded to say out loud. As a term it's not worth fighting over.

How can you call yourself a shmupper when you blatantly disregard the teachings of our apostles and the holy book? (Zzap 64 19:85)

[Asherdude]

Jumping from platform to platform, does not increase your score at any time! It's just how your player moves from place to place. The objectives are still the same as R-Types.

It's more forced-scroll worship, I'd be getting tired of hearing it but it's almost comical at this point.

I know. I don't see how they can call themselves "purists" when they exclude a hardcore classic like Metal Slug 3 -- which has both horizontal and vertical forced scrolling elements embedded in its levels. From an old schoolers viewpoint, calling it a "platformer" is pure sacrilege. I keep thinking that only a n00b could commit such a transgression against the classics. But... oh well, what can one do but point out the obvious.

[Plasmo]

-you cant turn around (very few exceptions, im thinking of g.darius)

I don't see G-Darius as an exception. You're still locked in one direction at a time with no direct control over the turning.

sometimes you turn around during boss battles.it doesnt really count but i thought id mention it at least

[Shatterhand]

I think the "can't turn around" is a very good argument... but what about Side Arms?

Jumping, crouching and not having free movement through the screen completely changes the way you are supposed to dodge incoming fire.

Shit, I still can't believe it's so hard for some people to notice that Contra and R-Type are two very different kind of games... I just don't feel like keeping on beating a dead horse....

[JoshF]

I think the "can't turn around" is a very good argument... but what about Side Arms?

It must not be a shooter.

Jumping, crouching and not having free movement through the screen completely changes the way you are supposed to dodge incoming fire.

Correct.

Contra and R-Type are two very different kind of games

So are Gradius and Batsugun.

[Shatterhand]

Gradius and Batsugun are a lot more similar than Gradius and Contra.
Geez, this should be obvious by now.

Contra is more similar to Megaman than to Gradius ...

[Asherdude]

Shit, I still can't believe it's so hard for some people to notice that Contra and R-Type are two very different kind of games... I just don't feel like keeping on beating a dead horse....

There is one thing that this forum has that others don't. A mutual respect for each other's opinion. I must admit, it is a rare thing to see.

[Plasmo]

Contra IS NOT a shmup cause it doesnt fit the requirements listed in my first post.
In fact Contra violates 3 , 4 and 5 (i think?)

SHMUP
1horizontal or vertical orientation
2you can freely move in every direction on a 2d area
3auto scrolling
4no gravity
5you cant turn around (very few exceptions, im thinking of g.darius and zero gunner 2)

quoting myself *gasp*

[TVG]

What authority do you guys have for imposing conditions on what is a shmup and what isn't?

[Sonic R]

What authority do you guys have for imposing conditions on what is a shmup and what isn't?

The Periodic Table of Chemistry

[JoshF]

Gradius and Batsugun are a lot more similar than Gradius and Contra.

Similar presentation but very different gameplay. Likewise, Contra has similar gameplay as Gradus and R-Type and introduces ideas of it's own (like Gradius and R-Type) but has very different presentation. Presentation should not be the determining factor.


IS THIS BETTER???????

[professor ganson]

If you can't see that Contra is not like the others, then you might want to look into whether you suffer from some sort of blindness. Most red-green colorblind individuals don't even know that they are!

[JoshF]

It's not the same style of shooting game but it is a shooting game. Shooting games come in many shapes and sizes there is not one ruling style and a bunch of sub-categories. [/Mr. Rogers]

[God]

I know. I don't see how they can call themselves "purists" when they exclude a hardcore classic like Metal Slug 3

Tetris is also a hardcore classic.

I think the "can't turn around" is a very good argument... but what about Side Arms?

It autoscrolls in 1 direction but lets you face and fire in 2? Could call it a borderliner and stick it in with other games that fuck around with the formula a little or lump it together with Defender because they fire in 2 directions. I thought all fire in 2 direction games also push scrolled in 2 directions...it makes things a little messier.

Am I right in thinking there are only 4 groups here, people who are arguing that a "shmup":
1) is any game with shooting
2) is any 2D game with shooting
3) is any 2D game with shooting and no platforming/gravity
4) is roughly Plasmo's 5 point definition
Does anyone not fall into one of those groupings?

It's like we're not fighting to define shmup we're fighting over which of four definitions gets the word shmup. It's silly; shmup is consistently misspelled and an embarrassment to say out loud. It's not like new words are expensive or we have to tear down a forest to get the lumber to build one. These 4 concepts can exist in peace together like hippies, we just have to get over the word shmup itself and not sweat what's on or off topic, just let the higher ups handle that arbitrarily.

Let's disregard this gameplay style because player maneuverability requires button as well as directional input.

Let's say there were a dozen or so games with Ikaruga's polarity system. We just slap a title on the concept so we can talk about it. That doesn't mean we're disregarding it, just giving it a title.

[Acid King]

So does Cybattler count?

[JoshF]

"No, it is a borderliner with forced scroll"

[j^aws]

There are really only 3 'groups' of shooters that are in operation in this forum AFAICS:

A) What the forum owners say are no-no: Side-scrolling 'platforming'/ run 'n' gun shooters like Metal Slug, Contra etc; Space Harrier/ After burner/ Panzer Dragoon/ Star Fox 'rail' shooters etc; 'Light-gun' shooters and FPS' like Quake, Halo etc... might've missed some out but they are in the FAQ somewhere...

B) What's eligible for voting in the polls and being on-topic... Might be useful to have a 'master list' of everything thats ever been voted for, accepted and by default: Eligible...

C) Borderliners: My definition of this is something that I can 'technically' show to be of category 'A'... And what's left is category 'B'...

[JoshF]

FPS is really the only category I could see someone reasonably not wanting to include, mainly due to the gameplay derivative being PC-based rather than arcade sensibilities (although there are a few arcade style FPS games I can think of.) Not necessarily how I feel but I could understand this position.

[Carmen]

I've always felt that Mercs or Kiki Kaikai were shooters. The ability to scroll the screen doesn't seem like enough to dismiss them without question, considering how much freer scrolling has become in shooters, with the introduction of free vertical/forced horizontal situations (Moai in Gradius III), forced vertical/free horizontal (lots of Axelay), and free vertical and horizontal situations (3st. boss Einhaender.)

Metal Slug and Contra, I can see why people argue about that, because they seem AS close to platformer styled games as they do to shooters. Personally I don't consider them as such.

As for Rez, Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox, despite having similar sensibilties, they just seem way too far off (but on some aspects closer then 'run and guns') But if there is a consensus that they too are borderlines, I don't see any problem with it.

[CMoon]

zOMG! Is this thread still alive??!!

The reason for so much irritation is this has been argued so many times as to seem completely senseless. Virtually all rigid definitions of a shmup exclude some particular shmup that we all love. But always there is some n00b that comes on here trying to get us to put run-n-guns, rail-shooters (hell, even light gun games!) on the main forum!
'
Folks, discuss those games to your heart's content in the off topic forum!

As a group I feel we have established a very long time ago what belongs and what doesn't with the possible exception of Tempest (I think proto-shmups (tube-shmups???) deserve lee-way.) That consensus excludes games like metal slug, contra, rez, panzer dragoon, etc.

note: this is a definition reached by consensus, not a philosophical statement, or a treatment of the history of video gaming. Only an organization by which conversation will take place on this forum.

The real definition belongs somewhere in the spirit of the gameplay. Although it may seem like shmups are about shooting, they are really about dodging. Being able to move freely in all directions (in 2D) without gravity (and without being able to jump over bullets)--that's what shmups are about. I'm of the belief that if it isn't doing that, it isn't a shmup.

Honestly, with users on this board with +3000 posts and more than 5 years of time (counting the old board); if your coming on here as a new poster hoping to somehow change the very definition of what the board is about you can bloody well shove off!

Am I right in thinking there are only 4 groups here, people who are arguing that a "shmup":
1) is any game with shooting
2) is any 2D game with shooting
3) is any 2D game with shooting and no platforming/gravity
4) is roughly Plasmo's 5 point definition
Does anyone not fall into one of those groupings?

The 'forum definition' I'm speaking of is 4 (with plenty of slack granted to allow for the 'spirit of the gameplay')

I also want to point out that I'm the first person to accurately quote God in the last few thousand years

[j^aws]

I've seen no "gravity" mentioned a few times... Bangai-0 and Datastrom have gravity and they are still Arena shmups...

Gravity is a control mechanic... it's a force that acts on your ship. It's a force in Asteroids and Defender when you use 'thrust'... Even flying under a waterfall, the water acts on your ship as a force a la R-type 2; or the force of gravity from the 'black hole' acting on your ship in Space Wars... They might not be to everyones 'tastes' though... I personally like the challenges they present...

[Asherdude]

Gradius and Batsugun are a lot more similar than Gradius and Contra.

Similar presentation but very different gameplay. Likewise, Contra has similar gameplay as Gradus and R-Type and introduces ideas of it's own (like Gradius and R-Type) but has very different presentation. Presentation should not be the determining factor.


IS THIS BETTER???????

Actually, Slug does have this...


Yeah, they're selling themselves short by focusing on their favorite style of shooter. As j^aws just mention, their "no gravity" argument locks out games like Bangai-O.

And it should be mentioned that Malc, the site owner, viewed Contra as a shmup until recently. Link. And I think that he just bowed to peer pressure in order to keep the peace. He probably didn't think that his views had much support because we (us fans) rarely spoke up in favor of Contra & Slugs shmup status. And honestly, I never spoke up in favor of it because I was afraid that those threads would descend into a flame war. But to the forum members credit, it appears that I was wrong.

Oh. Speaking of j^aws:

1) Asteroids
2) About 25 years ago on an arcade unit in a Pizza Hut.
3) I was about 15.

[JoshF]

If Contra isn't a shooting game, then what is it, a platformer? "Platformer" is another one of those misused and invented terms that doesn't exist in Japanese and has little if any reference to a particular style of gameplay. I know how to use the search function, the same people who are so quick to marginalize Contra and Metal Slug are the same people saying Bubble Bobble and Super Metroid are the same type of game. Regardless of whether this is actually right or wrong, its funny how they are willing to be so inclusive all of the sudden. Let's call this phenomenon genre dyslexia, and the only way you can treat yourself is to stop telling us what doesn't deserve to be called a shooter.

[Plasmo]

contra and metal slug are run n guns iirc

[JoshF]

And the Giga Wing series is danmaku reflect 'em up, but they're still shooting games.

[Rob]

I've seen no "gravity" mentioned a few times... Bangai-0 and Datastrom have gravity and they are still Arena shmups...

Bangai-O is an at-no-time-anywhere-shmup. Gravity as a constant force effecting your control directly (and not superficially, like Elemental Master or something) is in instant disqualification for me. Then there's the pacing of Bangai-O. Time Crisis has a better chance.

Of course then there are games with gimmicky one-off stages like Air Buster/Aero Blasters or various environmental obstacles. There's nothing wrong with variety within a rigid set of rules (ha?).

[Shatterhand]

If Contra isn't a shooting game, then what is it, a platformer? "Platformer" is another one of those misused and invented terms that doesn't exist in Japanese and has little if any reference to a particular style of gameplay. I know how to use the search function, the same people who are so quick to marginalize Contra and Metal Slug are the same people saying Bubble Bobble and Super Metroid are the same type of game. Regardless of whether this is actually right or wrong, its funny how they are willing to be so inclusive all of the sudden. Let's call this phenomenon genre dyslexia, and the only way you can treat yourself is to stop telling us what doesn't deserve to be called a shooter.

Contra, Castlevania, Bubble Bobble, Super Mario Bros and Super Metroid are all platform games whcih are different from each other, as much as Gradius, Viewpoint, Radiant Silvergun, Raiden and Dodonpachi are all shmups but different from each other.