Your definition of a shoot-em-up

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:21 am

JoshF wrote:Fascism. Shooting games are diverse, what you call a shmup is really a sub-category. Focusing on them is a misrepresentation of the genre.

What??? SHMUP is an acronym for "shoot 'em up." It was first used by the British C64 magazine, Zzap 64 in 1985. And they used it to refer to the master genre (aka Shooters) and not a sub-category.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:07 am

That's my point. By adding a bunch of criteria like auto-scroll and 2 axis you divide what's supposed to be a general term. Somehow I read your post to be the opposite of what you were saying.

God · Post by **God** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:46 am

Your definition of a shoot-em-up

Glad you asked.

Worrying about what is or isn't "shmup" only gets in the way of what we're really trying to do here: categorize 2D shooting games. After, any number of the categories can be have "shmup" bestowed on them arbitrarily.

What separates (what I consider) shmups from overhead run 'n gun is being locked in a single direction.

So, I think flying games with autoscrolling and shooting in a single direction belong in one category. This puts all the Gradius/R-Type/Ikaruga style games together and excludes the weird stuff like Asteroids/Yar's Revenge/Robotron. (This is either the definition of shmups or a sub-genre that hasn't been nailed down yet).

Mono Shooter = scroll and shoot in single direction (Gradius, R-Type, Ikaruga)
Duel Shooter = scroll and shoot in two directions (Defender, Chopper Commando)
Multi Shooter = Shoot in any direction (Overhead RnG genre, Robotron, Bangai-o)
Spin Shooter = Spin to shoot in any direction (Asteroids, Sinistar, Combat)

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:54 am

...and on the 8th day, God invented the sub-genre...

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:44 am

Any shmup with a slightly inspired mechanic is considered a sub-genre here.

DazTM · Post by **DazTM** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:46 pm

JoshF wrote:Any shmup with a slightly inspired mechanic is considered a sub-genre here.

Fuck me, I opened up a real can of worms here

Hell, why don't I just include the likes of Rez and Robotron anyway, and say that while they're considered as shmups, purists would put them in a sub-genre.

That should make things a lot easier for people to digest...

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:55 pm

JoshF seems a bit pissed off about something. Puzzling. I don't think of this as the sort of topic that should inspire wrath-- not like a DDP SUCKS thread or something like that.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:20 pm

You'd be surprised. Pretty much why I just included a big fat disclaimer in the glossary and more or less refuse to bother getting any deeper into this...then again, such a quest in search of a legendary hard-and-fast definition never really interested me much to begin with.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:35 pm

DazTM wrote:Fuck me, I opened up a real can of worms here

A can of worms that's been festering in the back of the kitchen cupboards for the past ten years.

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:52 pm

It's only a can of worms if you want it to be. The majority of us old schoolers don't like our shoot-em-ups to be sub-categorized to death. During the past 25 years, I never recognized those sub-genre's and I never will. Just look at it this way: Websters dictionary (the world standard in definitions) recognizes "shoot-em-up", but they don't recognize "run-n-gun". Shoot em up. Run n gun. HA!

Damn, I'm so proud of my bullet proof response, I'm adding Contra as my new sig! contra.png

Edit: Ok. I only used the contra sig for about 10 minutes. There's just too many cool PC Engine shooters out there for me to be a rebel any longer than that!

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:59 pm

I've seen the terms "2D shooting game" combined with "scroll-shooting", "fixed screen shooting", "quarter view shooting" (eg. View Point) or "multi-direction scroll shooting" (eg. Granada) used in Japanese. Pretty accurate description that sums it up and makes further discussion quite unnecessary, in my opinion.

Japanese Wikipedia

But hey, let's talk about some more for 20 pages.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:08 pm

if we go by the sensible way of judging the game only by its gameplay properties, it's kinda obvious that Metal SLug and Dodonpachi are very different from each other, while Metal Slug surely is similar to Contra and Dodonpachi is similar to Raiden.

I really don't care much about the "specialization", some games are hard to categorize indeed, like In The Hunt... but goddamn, no way Contra alikes can be categorized in the same way as Dodonpachi.

Soon we will be calling Megaman a shmup... and well.... in Arkanoid you can shoot too!

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:14 pm

A site that's edited by "who-ever" doesn't mean anything. I quit reading wickedpedia a long time ago because of all of the wild definitions that I'd see.

Now here's one for the record books: KLOV thinks that Guwange is a scrolling fighter. Link. For those who don't know. A scrolling fighter is like Double Dragon or Final Fight.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:15 pm

Shatterhand wrote: I really don't care much about the "specialization", some games are hard to categorize indeed, like In The Hunt... but goddamn, no way Contra alikes can be categorized in the same way as Dodonpachi.

No, Contra and the likes are called アクションシューティングゲーム in Japanese, that's "action shooting game".

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:19 pm

Shatterhand wrote: I really don't care much about the "specialization", some games are hard to categorize indeed, like In The Hunt... but goddamn, no way Contra alikes can be categorized in the same way as Dodonpachi.

No. Contra doesn't play like Dodonpachi. But I do see similarities between Contra and a game like R-Type or Gradius.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:22 pm

What button do I use to jump in Gradius or R-Type?

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:29 pm

Shatterhand wrote:What button do I use to jump in Gradius or R-Type?

How does jumping stop it from being a shooter? In all three games you shoot as many enemies as possible to increase your score, grab powerups to increase your firepower, and defeat the end level bosses by shooting them. That's what I call classic shoot-em-up gameplay.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:45 pm

How do I change my shot direction in R-Type? How do I stop scrolling? How I do stop enemies to come?

The games surely have some similarities, but their GAMEPLAY PROPERTIES certainly are different enough. The games play in a very different way. In gameing, I think that gameplay is what matter.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:48 pm

Ceph wrote:I've seen the terms "2D shooting game" combined with "scroll-shooting", "fixed screen shooting", "quarter view shooting" (eg. View Point) or "multi-direction scroll shooting" (eg. Granada) used in Japanese. Pretty accurate description that sums it up and makes further discussion quite unnecessary, in my opinion.

Ceph wrote:Contra and the likes are called アクションシューティングゲーム in Japanese, that's "action shooting game".

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:00 pm

Shatterhand wrote:How do I change my shot direction in R-Type? How do I stop scrolling? How I do stop enemies to come?

The games surely have some similarities, but their GAMEPLAY PROPERTIES certainly are different enough. The games play in a very different way. In gameing, I think that gameplay is what matter.

In R-Type, to change the shot direction, you move the pod to the back of the ship. In Bio-Hazard Battle, you can swing the pod all the way around the ship at any time. And virtually all of these games stop scrolling when you reach the end bosses. Your players characteristics changes in all of these games, but the objectives are all the same. Shoot as many enemies as possible to increase your score. That single aspect is what makes a shoot-em-up a shoot-em-up.

Jumping from platform to platform, does not increase your score at any time! It's just how your player moves from place to place. The objectives are still the same as R-Types.

Ceph wrote:I've seen the terms "2D shooting game" combined with "scroll-shooting", "fixed screen shooting", "quarter view shooting" (eg. View Point) or "multi-direction scroll shooting" (eg. Granada) used in Japanese. Pretty accurate description that sums it up and makes further discussion quite unnecessary, in my opinion.

Yeah, when I used to work at Walmart back in the 80's, they used terms like these. And games like Contra were "action shooting" then too. And they all fell under the "shoot-em-up" category.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:09 pm

Reach the end of the boss doesn't count for "stop scrolling".

And the change of direction of shots in those games aren't as natural as in the called "run'n'guns"

And Ceph, yeah, we are ignoring you just for the sake of the discussion, hehe

Post by **Icarus** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:09 pm

Shatterhand wrote: and well.... in Arkanoid you can shoot too!

Is Cosmic Smash tennis, table tennis, or 3D Breakout?
*runs away*

EDIT:

Asherdude wrote:It's only a can of worms if you want it to be. The majority of us old schoolers don't like our shoot-em-ups to be sub-categorized to death. During the past 25 years, I never recognized those sub-genre's and I never will. Just look at it this way: Websters dictionary (the world standard in definitions) recognizes "shoot-em-up", but they don't recognize "run-n-gun". Shoot em up. Run n gun. HA!

Main Entry: shoot–'em–up
Pronunciation: \ˈshüt-əm-ˌəp\
Function: noun
Date: 1947

1) a movie, television show, or computer game with much shooting and bloodshed

Christ, we've been playing Grand Theft Auto for all these years?
/wrists

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:19 pm

DazTM wrote:Hell, why don't I just include the likes of Rez and Robotron anyway, and say that while they're considered as shmups, purists would put them in a sub-genre.

That should make things a lot easier for people to digest...

Hell, no. Why don't you just write the opposite: that Rez and Robotron aren't considered by purists among the subgenre that is known as "shmups". A subgenre of the wider "shooting game" family.

Please, value what you're doing, since you've power to write on a paper magazine, please use it with responsibility (Uncle Ben's voice).

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:36 pm

i would be gobsmacked if anyone at imagine towers could write a feature on traditional shmups that was anything short of crap

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:47 pm

Contra is a shoot em up
Gradius is a shmup

shmups are autoscrolling and not platformers.

dear lord why are you people still arguing over this.

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:58 pm

Shatterhand wrote:Reach the end of the boss doesn't count for "stop scrolling".

And the change of direction of shots in those games aren't as natural as in the called "run'n'guns"

It looks like you're putting too much emphasis on forced scrolling. Remember, you'll exclude "In The Hunt" if you do that.

shinsage wrote:Contra is a shoot em up
Gradius is a shmup

shmups are autoscrolling and not platformers.

dear lord why are you people still arguing over this.

SHMUP is an acronym for Shoot-em-up. It's been that way since it was first used in 1985. And the problem is that people have been trying to re-define it.

Contra a platformer. LOL! Sorry. I got a mental picture of Mario all buffed up & gun-ho like a mini Rambo and running though a Contra level while screaming "Die! Commie Pigs!". And that just struck me as funny.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:58 pm

Asherdude wrote: Contra a platformer. LOL!

Of course Contra is a platformer. A sidescrolling platformer in which you also shoot, also known as "run and gun".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_game

shinsage wrote: dear lord why are you people still arguing over this.

Homer Simpson wrote:It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything.

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:41 pm

Yeah, I know. That's the problem. People view Contra, Metal Slug, ect., ect. as platformers. But honestly, I don't think you guys know the definition of a platformer. The first platformer that was globally recognized as a platformer was Donkey Kong. The object of the game was to climb & jump from platform to platform to see how high you can go. It even states that in the game.

Shooting, stomping, or any type of killing is a secondary objective in a platformer. In the game, Zombie's Ate My Neighbors, which Wickedpedia classifies as a run-n-gun (which it's not), shooting is a secondary objective - saving the neighbors is the primary objective. You don't have to shoot anything to complete a level in ZAMN. But in Contra, shooting enemies is the primary objective. Sure, I can go though Contra dodging everything, but I can do that in R-Type too. But just like in R-Type, I won't be able to rack up a very good score doing that.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:43 pm

SHMUP
-horizontal or vertical orientation
-you can freely move in every direction on a 2d area
-auto scrolling
-no gravity
-you cant turn around (very few exceptions, im thinking of g.darius and zero gunner 2)

Asherdude · Post by **Asherdude** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:50 pm

Yeah. we ought to get back to just supplying DazTM with our definition.