Psikyo > Cave

[ACSeraph]

To suggest all Psikyo games have flashing coin/medal pick-ups, which they don't, and have boss point blanking mechanisms, of which only 2 have is a little extreme.

Well, even though it isn't connected to the scoring system, they do pretty much all have point blanking as far as I know, and it's quite important for speed killing and survival.

[LordHypnos]

To suggest all Psikyo games have flashing coin/medal pick-ups, which they don't, and have boss point blanking mechanisms, of which only 2 have is a little extreme.

Well, even though it isn't connected to the scoring system, they do pretty much all have point blanking as far as I know, and it's quite important for speed killing and survival.

Note that they also give you close attacks a lot of the time. Those are quite useful for speed killing. When I was trying to learn Gunbird 2, I found that the thing that helped me most was using the close attack at key points to avoid having to dodge as many fast screen filling patterns as possible. There are also a few points where you don't get shot at when you're at point blank range, but that's less about speed killing, and more about not having to dodge the fast aimed shots (Psikyo is good at making aimed shots hard).

[ACSeraph]

When I was trying to learn Gunbird 2, I found that the thing that helped me most was using the close attack at key points to avoid having to dodge as many fast screen filling patterns as possible.

This is exactly how Psikyo is meant to be played. A passive attack and dodge Cave style strategy won't work, and you won't enjoy yourself.

[Limbrooke]

To suggest all Psikyo games have flashing coin/medal pick-ups, which they don't, and have boss point blanking mechanisms, of which only 2 have is a little extreme.

Well, even though it isn't connected to the scoring system, they do pretty much all have point blanking as far as I know, and it's quite important for speed killing and survival.

I'm talking strictly about the technical bonus found in Dragon Blaze and Strikers 1945 III/1999, which are score related - I suspect this is what BkR was referring to. As far as point blanking for speed and survival, this can apply to many games and is not limited to Psikyo fare.

[Xyga]

When I was trying to learn Gunbird 2, I found that the thing that helped me most was using the close attack at key points to avoid having to dodge as many fast screen filling patterns as possible.

This is exactly how Psikyo is meant to be played. A passive attack and dodge Cave style strategy won't work, and you won't enjoy yourself.

Yeah like in that crazy run by SWY (was it?) in which he countinuously dragon-smashes the fuck out of everything.
It's almost like he's not playing a shmup.

[BIL]

^SYO. One terrifying run, he smashed the living fuck out of it for sure.

[Xyga]

Thanks. ^^
EDIT: Terrifying indeed, but very educative. It changed my perception of DB completely.

[ACSeraph]

As far as point blanking for speed and survival, this can apply to many games and is not limited to Psikyo fare.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think it's limited to Psikyo, as even Cave's stuff has point blanking elements (Mushi W shot for example). However it is particularly important in Psikyo, even when it isn't directly connected to scoring.

I've always felt like their games are completely built around the concept of point blank speed killing.

You don't dodge in Psikyo, you kill.

[LordHypnos]

As far as point blanking for speed and survival, this can apply to many games and is not limited to Psikyo fare.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think it's limited to Psikyo, as even Cave's stuff has point blanking elements (Mushi W shot for example). However it is particularly important in Psikyo, even when it isn't directly connected to scoring.

I've always felt like their games are completely built around the concept of point blank speed killing.

You don't dodge in Psikyo, you kill.

You are eventually forced to dodge (e.g. Stage 4 of Gunbird 2, or earlier stages depending on stage order), it's just to be avoided at all costs. Probably easier to avoid with characters that have faster recharge speed on their close attack...

Edit: also the bosses, and macrododging is preferred over micrododging where possible.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think it's limited to Psikyo, as even Cave's stuff has point blanking elements (Mushi W shot for example). However it is particularly important in Psikyo, even when it isn't directly connected to scoring.

It's also a lot harder in Psikyo because you need much more precise timing to actually hit with pointblank attacks (the melee in GB2, Dragon Shot, the charge attacks in Strikers). Mistime the melee attack and you're left vulnerable! Bombs are also generally less powerful and safe, thus making mistakes more meaningful, so you need to be much more efficient with your resources compared to your average Cave game. Using Cave's close range attacks in their games (Ketsui Laser, Mushi W-Power, Dodonpachi aura bonuses, Espgaluda pierce shot, Progear pointblanking) is much more forgiving; you can get in and out of close range more easily, and with far more safety than in Psikyo games (the laser aura in DDP is much safer to pointblank with than say Valpiro's punch that actually causes him to slow down without protecting him from popcorn around him). Even the charge attacks in Psikyo games aren't safe, taking too long to fill compared to say Cyvern, where refilling your Banish meter from empty is as easy as hitting things, it's useable even with just a bit of meter filled and you don't need to stop shooting to use it.

Psikyo games are really, really steep in terms of learning curve compared to most games, and I'd say are harder to approach than your average Cave or Takumi game. There is one thing that Psikyo does better than most shmup companies, and that's character design. Having multiple character endings, multiple character pairing endings, great character design and animation, all those things are a good reason to replay the game multiple times, if not for the unbelievably steep difficulty (the console ports have more forgiving Novice style difficulties I think?).

I'd also agree that their bullet patterns aren't as fun to dodge. It feels like there's just too many high speed snipes during bosses where you basically need to be in-position and know where to be before the attack to avoid them.

[LordHypnos]

Psikyo games are really, really steep in terms of learning curve compared to most games, and I'd say are harder to approach than your average Cave or Takumi game. There is one thing that Psikyo does better than most shmup companies, and that's character design. Having multiple character endings, multiple character pairing endings, great character design and animation, all those things are a good reason to replay the game multiple times, if not for the unbelievably steep difficulty (the console ports have more forgiving Novice style difficulties I think?).

Giga Wing seems to do a good job of this as well, but there is less difference between the characters compared to Gunbird 2.

Yeah, Gunbird 2 on Dreamcast has the "child" difficulty, which I 1cc'd with Morrigan on my second try after not playing the game for a couple of months (Plenty of bomb spamming, mind you). There's also "Baby" which is probably even easier, and "Very Easy" which is probably about as hard as a more standard bullet hell shooter. Can't tell the difference between "Easy" and "Normal" though.

I'd also agree that their bullet patterns aren't as fun to dodge. It feels like there's just too many high speed snipes during bosses where you basically need to be in-position and know where to be before the attack to avoid them.

I'm gonna withhold judgement on whether or not the bullet patterns are as fun (I found them pretty enjoyable on the rare occassions that I managed to avoid getting hit by the ridiculously fast patterns), but this is essentially what provoked me to say "You know, maybe starting by trying to 1cc Gunbird 2 is a bad idea. Not that Mars Matrix is a good starting point, either...

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think it's limited to Psikyo, as even Cave's stuff has point blanking elements (Mushi W shot for example). However it is particularly important in Psikyo, even when it isn't directly connected to scoring.

It's also a lot harder in Psikyo because you need much more precise timing to actually hit with pointblank attacks (the melee in GB2, Dragon Shot, the charge attacks in Strikers). Mistime the melee attack and you're left vulnerable! Bombs are also generally less powerful and safe, thus making mistakes more meaningful, so you need to be much more efficient with your resources compared to your average Cave game. Using Cave's close range attacks in their games (Ketsui Laser, Mushi W-Power, Dodonpachi aura bonuses, Espgaluda pierce shot, Progear pointblanking) is much more forgiving; you can get in and out of close range more easily, and with far more safety than in Psikyo games (the laser aura in DDP is much safer to pointblank with than say Valpiro's punch that actually causes him to slow down without protecting him from popcorn around him). Even the charge attacks in Psikyo games aren't safe, taking too long to fill compared to say Cyvern, where refilling your Banish meter from empty is as easy as hitting things, it's useable even with just a bit of meter filled and you don't need to stop shooting to use it.

Psikyo games are really, really steep in terms of learning curve compared to most games, and I'd say are harder to approach than your average Cave or Takumi game. There is one thing that Psikyo does better than most shmup companies, and that's character design. Having multiple character endings, multiple character pairing endings, great character design and animation, all those things are a good reason to replay the game multiple times, if not for the unbelievably steep difficulty (the console ports have more forgiving Novice style difficulties I think?).

I'd also agree that their bullet patterns aren't as fun to dodge. It feels like there's just too many high speed snipes during bosses where you basically need to be in-position and know where to be before the attack to avoid them.

Only if Psikyo were still around to make a proper Gunbird 3 PCB sequel, that'd take the GB series to an all-new high indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~