Stick or pad

[Ghegs]

I find it impossible to believe that it's all just habit and coincidence.

Nothing coincidental about it. The japanese players are in an environment that practically requires them to play with sticks as has been explained here time and time again. Those of us who play with pads usually grew up playing with pads and therefore are more proficient in using them. Simple as that.

Yes, what you are saying is indeed nonsense. Because I sure as hell never said that.

You keep implying it constantly. Not once have you said anything about skills or planning or practice being behind the results. Your argument is basically "Japanese players are the best -> japanese players use sticks -> therefore sticks are the best". And like we've explained to you more than once, they use sticks because, in practice, they have to. The fact that japanese players use sticks is a statistic and doesn't correlate to "sticks are the best".

[freddiebamboo]

Your logic isn't quite right here icycalm. Controllers are only bits of plastic that move your ship about, they don't determine how good you are (or could be) at a game.

The logic is right there, man.

Pads and keyboards/mice are also bits of plastic that help move you around in an FPS.

Sure, you can finish an FPS with a controller, and you can probably get some kills online with it as well. But most good FPS players consistently prefer the keyboard/mouse combination for a reason. And that's the same reason that most high-scoring STG players prefer sticks.

Pads were not made with fps games in mind though. They're made for arcade games along with sticks. I think the d-pad has reached a good enough standard (saturn/ps2 whatever you prefer) in accuracy that it can convey tapping movements as good as anything else, sticks included.

[Rob]

How, then, can you explain that the majority of good western players also prefer sticks?

I thought Saturn pads were preferred by the best players on this board, or are you talking about people who don't post here?

[icycalm]

You keep implying it constantly.

I never implied it because I don't believe it's true.

Not once have you said anything about skills or planning or practice being behind the results.

That's because this thread is about sticks vs. pads, NOT about planning or practice. A 5-year-old will tell you that planning and practice are required to improve, this goes without saying for God's sake.

Your argument is basically "Japanese players are the best -> japanese players use sticks -> therefore sticks are the best".

If my argument was just that then I would have typed that instead of all those other posts. The only reason I am mentioning the Japanese is because it can't be a coincidence that the best players in the world use sticks.

And like we've explained to you more than once, they use sticks because, in practice, they have to.

Ghegs, I've lived in Japan for years and I don't need you to explain to me how the arcade enviroment works. And I've already asked you a question. If you think that the only reason Japanese players use sticks is the enviroment they grew up in, then how come most of the best Western players also use sticks?


And here's an example: the Shmups.com Mushihime-sama Maniac hi score table:

# 437,190,909 - d-ku
# 426,257,832 - DKU-BON
# 413,850,350 - AST-KOT
# 359,028,029 - TWE
# 325,399,786 - toby
# 290,098,411 - Gaijin Punch
# 267,730,564 - MrMonkeyMan
# 267,435,586 - HDJ
# 216,407,161 - AST-LUN
# 168,477,386 - freddiebamboo

I bet if we asked all those people, at least 7 or 8 out of 10 use sticks, if not more.

The fact that japanese players use sticks is a statistic and doesn't correlate to "sticks are the best".

Of course it's a statistic! And a damn interesting one at that!

[Galdur]

Sure, you can finish an FPS with a controller, and you can probably get some kills online with it as well. But most good FPS players consistently prefer the keyboard/mouse combination for a reason. And that's the same reason that most high-scoring STG players prefer sticks.

A mouse allows for faster, more erratic looking movements than analog sticks, therefore the gameplay is significantly affected. However, in a shooting game the ship's movement speed is fixed. These two cases aren't exactly comparable.

How, then, can you explain that the majority of good western players also prefer sticks?

I thought Saturn pads were preferred by the best players on this board, or are you talking about people who don't post here?

And yeah, I'd like to see where this fact came from.

[Turrican]

The logic is right there, man.

Pads and keyboards/mice are also bits of plastic that help move you around in an FPS.

Sure, you can finish an FPS with a controller, and you can probably get some kills online with it as well. But most good FPS players consistently prefer the keyboard/mouse combination for a reason. And that's the same reason that most high-scoring STG players prefer sticks.

Your logic is flawed in this point:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre.

fixed:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific game.

About the statistic bit - it doesn't help because nowadays simply there are not anymore shmups programmed directly on consoles. My initial assumption was: each game is best for the controller is meant to be played with.

Since all the shmups survived are from the arcade, the stick is today the controller of choice for these games. But not superior for the whole genre: used it with 1985/1995 games developed for joypads will result in a lower performance (that of course can be countered by many factor like preference and such, as Ghegs says).

[icycalm]

Your logic is flawed in this point:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre.

fixed:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific game.

Ok, if you want us to be more precise, let's agree to this:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific sub-genre.

[Turrican]

Ok, if you want us to be more precise, let's agree to this:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific sub-genre.

If you mean that arcade shmups will do better with a stick while console ones might be worse with one, I can agree.

Of course this is just the basic theory - then countless other elements will turn black and white into infinite shades of gray. Not only the personal preference as Ghegs says, but also the fact that no stick and pad is equal to another: and I assume we can also agree than a good pad is always a better choice than a shitty stick and viceversa.

[Pirate1019]

Icycalm makes it sound like Japanese players are better at shmups because they use sticks. It couldn't possibly be because they put in more effort, plan better, practice more, and have shmups more readily available then us. It because they use a stick.

Nonsense, I say.

Yes, what you are saying is indeed nonsense. Because I sure as hell never said that.

Try brushing up on your reading comprehension skills before you waltz into a thread and start insulting people.

Use whatever the fuck you want.

And thanks for that wonderful insight. It really helps our discussion.

Way to ignore the arguement completely and simply make cheap shots at my english skills.

[icycalm]

Ok, if you want us to be more precise, let's agree to this:

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific sub-genre.

If you mean that arcade shmups will do better with a stick while console ones might be worse with one, I can agree.

No, I don't mean arcade and console shumps. These are not sub-genres.

In essence I mean bullet hell shooters, checkpoint horis, etc. When pixel-perfect precision is not required (as in R-Type, for example) then pads can work as well sticks.

[Ghegs]

If my argument was just that then I would have typed that instead of all those other posts. The only reason I am mentioning the Japanese is because it can't be a coincidence that the best players in the world use sticks.

We've covered this. Few times already. They use sticks because they, in practice, have to. There's nothing coincidental about it.

If you think that the only reason Japanese players use sticks is the enviroment they grew up in, then how come most of the best Western players also use sticks?

And here's an example: the Shmups.com Mushihime-sama Maniac hi score table

I didn't bother answering before because I thought it obvious that this too is nothing but a statistic, just like with the japanese players. This one doesn't correlate to "sticks are the best" either. Many western players use sticks because A) that's what they're used to (there were once arcades aplenty in US and Europe, after all) and B) because other people, mainly the japanese players, use sticks.

When pixel-perfect precision is not required (as in R-Type, for example) then pads can work as well sticks.

And as has been mentioned, you can get pixel-perfect control from pads as well. I trust you know of the western player alamone and of his accomplishments?

<alamone> saturn pad is my favorite controller though
<alamone> im not very good with arcade sticks
<alamone> i cant move as precisely as i can with a pad
<alamone> i'm just more used to pads
<alamone> maybe if i used arcade sticks from the get go, id be better with them

[icycalm]

Ignoring statistics "just because they are statistics" is a bit silly, don't you think?

What else do we have to go on in this case, other than statistics?

I am saying that sticks offer much more accuracy, and several others in this thread support this view, including almost all of the Mushihime-sama Maniac highest scorers and all of Japan.

On the other hand, you and MrMonkeyMan and Alamone, and doubtless various other Western STG players, believe sticks and pads offer equal accuracy, and picking which to use is just a matter of personal preference.

Well, I guess the discussion is over then, until someone decides to go out and do that study I proposed.

In the meantime, I think I will do some research myself by PMing the best players on this board, just so that there's no confusion over whether the highest-scoring Western players also prefer sticks.

[Turrican]

No, I don't mean arcade and console shumps. These are not sub-genres.

In essence I mean bullet hell shooters, checkpoint horis, etc. When pixel-perfect precision is not required (as in R-Type, for example) then pads can work as well sticks.

I suspected as much, that's why I asked whay you meant. Of course there cannot be agreement then because I don't think any group of games (be it a subgenre or not) controls the same, and also because with that example you are again stating the superiority (here labeled "pixel-perfect precision") of one above another.

[Monk 0 Nuggets]

This is getting intense.

[EOJ]

# 359,028,029 - TWE

I got that score using a good old Sony PS2 dual shock 2 controller.

I mainly play with a stick now though (Sigma 9000TB).

[Ghegs]

Ignoring statistics "just because they are statistics" is a bit silly, don't you think?

I'm not ignoring the statistics, but pointing out that the fact that high-scoring players using a stick doesn't correlate to "sticks are the best". It correlates to what is the most often used controller, and the reasons for WHY sticks are the most often used (assuming that's the case, which it probably is) are far more varied than just "because they're the best".

But hey, at last we agreed on something. This discussion needs to end, hopefully with a "agree to disagree".

[icycalm]

# 359,028,029 - TWE

I got that score using a good old Sony PS2 dual shock 2 controller.

I mainly play with a stick now though (Sigma 9000TB).

So why'd you change?

[EOJ]

Mainly because my supergun setup(s) made playing with a pad too hard (you can't switch around the button config unless you resolder everything).

I think I still prefer the accuracy of a d-pad over a stick for most games, but I really prefer the buttons on an arcade stick over a pad's buttons. Especially for games where you have to tap the buttons a lot.

Also, I'll admit, since all the top Japanese players use sticks, I thought I'd better train myself to get used to one. I've gotten some good scores on my Sigma stick (as well as my Hori RAP before it), and I'm pretty used to it now, so I probably won't switch back to pads.

[lawnspic]

This is getting intense.

Yeah, i thought this was an old thread. Great feedback. I got a Hori T5 just to see if i would like a stick, but i dont think i gave it a chance. I went back to the pad.

[EOJ]

[I got a Hori T5 just to see if i would like a stick, but i dont think i gave it a chance. I went back to the pad.

A US Hori T5 stick is pretty much a piece of crap. You need to try a Seimitsu LS-32 stick with sanwa or seimitsu buttons. Nothing's better.

[freddiebamboo]

# 168,477,386 - freddiebamboo

I did use a pad for this score, but for others I've used a stick - I used the keyboard for 5 out of the 6 STGT weeks.

I don't think it matters what you use as long as you're comfortable with it.

[lawnspic]

If i used a stick, i would get an Ultimarc Magstick. I almost tried to stuff one in that T5 but said screw it. I need a very short throw, and i need a bat stick, because i hate a swivel ball top Jap stick. Then maybe then i can play with a stick at the very least.

[Arznei]

Use whatever the fuck you want.

And thanks for that wonderful insight. It really helps our discussion.

Hey, at least he MAKES sense. MMM is right, you can play equally as good with a pad as you can with a stick. If people are experienced with a pad, they'll tend to stay with them. Just like, if people are familiar with sticks, they'll stay with those. Personal preference, motherfucker, do you know it?

I prefer pads because I've played shooters on them from the beginning. I tried sticks but I didn't like the isolation feeling, or the claw style, or anything like that. Sure, I'd probably play with a stick for fun but since I know what it's like with a pad and since I'm more satisfied using a pad, I'm going to stick with what I prefer.

And jesus christ, this "Daz@Retro Gamer" guy makes the most generic, over done, over reposted, repetitive threads I've EVER seen.

[lawnspic]

Arznei got it right, cant do to much more than argue or take a poll

[Rob]

I bet if we asked all those people, at least 7 or 8 out of 10 use sticks, if not more.

Case closed.

[msm]

# 359,028,029 - TWE

I got that score using a good old Sony PS2 dual shock 2 controller.

in my (maybe limited) experience thoes things don't always register directional taps, did you notice this? (imo dual shock's are the worst d-pads ever for shmups )

i use a pad - unclear if this adds anything to the discussion though

have tried a hori soul calibur 2 stick but didn't get on with it, are these considered to be any good for shmups? it seemed well made and all but a bit too "wobbley" for me.

[seattlexc]

I've been thinking about getting a stick, not because I'm unhappy with my preformance with a saturn pad, its just the darn thing kills my hands after an hour or so. A stick should be a little less painful to use.

[DJ Incompetent]

# 359,028,029 - TWE

I got that score using a good old Sony PS2 dual shock 2 controller.

in my (maybe limited) experience thoes things don't always register directional taps, did you notice this? (imo dual shock's are the worst d-pads ever for shmups )

i use a pad - unclear if this adds anything to the discussion though

Actually, Dual Shocks that come packaged with the PS2 are shoddy quality and do that tap miss as described. However, if you buy a Dual Shock separate (like the colors), the D-Pad quality is much higher and nearly perfect. 'Better than 1st gen and Dual Shock 1 d-pads in my opinion.

This is experience from two solo-bought controllers and 3 (of 5-6) defective Playstation 2 returns where sometimes EB required the stock controller and other times they didn't. When I had to rebuy a second PS2, the controller that came with that was also the crappy d-pad version.

so basically,
5 of 5 dual shocks I got when buying new or got sent remanufactured PS2s had shitty d-pads.
2 of 2 individually bought dual shocks had awesome D-Pads.

[Gungriffon Geona]

I find it impossible to believe that it's all just habit and coincidence.

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre. Either sticks are better for shooting games, or pads are. They simply cannot be equal, if for no other reason than that they are different.

that's funny, I came close to a 1CC on Daioh with a keyboard quite a few times. moreover, I beat several other games (Einhander, Gradius Gaiden to 2nd loop, Raiden 2.) with either a keyboard or a pad. hell, I've beaten loads of old DOS shooters with relative ease on a keyboard.
essentially, I'm quite good with precise movements with a pad or keyboard. I just have rote problems with slamming myself into a bullet I just dodged due to my hands being quite fidgety. I make the same mistakes with a stick too (I actually make many more mistakes in my experience with Raiden 2), so it obviously has nothing to do with that issue.

[dave4shmups]

I really prefer a pad, which is why, for shmup gaming, I also prefer consoles that come with a solid D-PAD. In this regard, the Saturn is indeed highly superior to the PS2. (Good luck finding a PS2 Saturn controller.)

But I digress, I'm just more comfortable with pads, even crappy one's like the DualShock2 controllers have. I never did very well in arcades with a joystick-on the same game I could do MUCH better with a D-Pad. I can move around better, and that gives me more attention to devote to gunning down enemies. Even more so in shmup cabs like Assault, where I hated having to use two sticks-to move the tank in Namco Museum 4, I can just set the controls to where I can use the pad.

I don't even do well with sticks attached to arcade cabs, much less joysticks that you buy or that come with a system. Even when I was a kid, I found the 2600 joystick uncomfortable to hold. Given that, I seriously doubt I'd do any better with current larger sticks that are out there that take up a lot more space. I guess I could just put the thing in my lap, but that could get uncomfortable, and setting up boxes or a table just isn't worth the effort for me.