Stick or pad

-Bridget- · Post by **-Bridget-** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:36 am

bloodflowers wrote:The Dreamcast and Gamecube controllers are designed to make people hate games.

Agreed.

The DC controller was huge, lumpy, and generally awful.

The GC controller was utterly obsessed with it's dang analog sticks; that stupid tiny D-pad is the main reason why I hate the thing. Utterly useless for high-level fighter play. I wont touch the thing...... not that I like the GCN anyway, mind you.

There's 2 controllers I use for my shmupping right now: the PS2 controller for my imports.... which has the best D-pad, I think. I've absolutely no trouble with precision moves in shmups or wild comboing in fighters on that thing.

And the 360 controller for my MAME stuff; I dont care for the D-pad on that one though, the circular thing, not as accurate as I'd like, but better than me yelling at and banging on the keyboard......

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:14 am

-Bridget- wrote:The GC controller was utterly obsessed with it's dang analog sticks; that stupid tiny D-pad is the main reason why I hate the thing. Utterly useless for high-level fighter play. I wont touch the thing...... not that I like the GCN anyway, mind you.

The right GC analog stick was terrible, more of a nub really. Useful for flicking a camera to the side but not much else - I guess it was their update to the yellow directional C-buttons on the N64 controller.

The d-pad isn't only bad for fighter play, it's also bad for basic GBA emulation. Horrible...

Neither of them really has anything on the N64 pad for awfulness, though. Any time I imagine myself becoming nostalgic about that pad, I remember what the edge of the joystick feels like pressed into a thumb, or the weird arthritic both-hands-over grip I had to use (some people grab the stick by the center piece with their left hand, which is madness, I say).

Post by **Shatterhand** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:26 am

some people grab the stick by the center piece with their left hand, which is madness, I say

everyone I knew did that, and it took me a while to notice. I always grabbed it left hand at the left piece and right hand at the right piece, EVEN when the game used the analog stick.

But even the N64 manual tells you to grab the controller by the center piece when playing an analog stick game - And there's even a more weird setup, with you using your RIGHT hand at the center piece and your left hand at the left piece, and this is in the N64 manual! Though I've only seen one game using this setup.

And even though I held the controller at the wrong way for most of the time, I always felt that controller was great. Yeah, the Dpad wasn't great, but it was aceptable (like the SNES one was before), but the analog stick, when new, was awesome, and the button display was pretty good.

I don't think I ever played a GC for more than 5 minutes, so I can't comment on it. And I NEVER played a X-Box or X-Box 360, so can't comment on it either

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:38 am

I think everyone should play using what they feel most comfortable with but in some cases I do think sticks win out.

I've been playing Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge for Xbox since it came out. It's a arcade flight sim you control with the analog sticks. It's really demanding on the analog sticks and after a while if you're using a 1st party pad you're probably going to break it. So people started buying 3rd party pads and they found that with the Madcatz controllers they were getting greater sensitivity. Someone had the idea to mod their controller by widening the hole where the analog stick sits and they found something very interesting. You get tighter and faster turns by modding the stick, the regular sticks weren't releasing the full potential.

My point is that in this genre 95% of the modern commercial releases come from the arcade. They are made for sticks and if you are playing them with pads you may not be getting the same sensitivity. I mean you can go to the options in most games and I've never seen the option to adjust the sensitivity of the d-pad.

When games are ported there may be limitations that aren't noticed if you only play using one form of control. When I bought my HRAP2 the first game I tried it on was GigaWing and I noticed right away that diagonals were a lot faster with the stick.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:47 am

JJG wrote:Someone had the idea to mod their controller by widening the hole where the analog stick sits and they found something very interesting. You get tighter and faster turns by modding the stick, the regular sticks weren't releasing the full potential.

Fun Fact: You run faster in Halo when you do that. I was screwing around with a junk controller and found this out. It's not much, but it's there. It does, however, cause problems. The X-Box has a tendency to freak out if you have it in the full-on position when you pause. Text gets garbled.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:48 am

JJG wrote:I mean you can go to the options in most games and I've never seen the option to adjust the sensitivity of the d-pad.

...because it's digital.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 am

Pads don't need sensitivity. Either you are pressing directions or you aren't, you know?

My point is that in this genre 95% of the modern commercial releases come from the arcade. They are made for sticks and if you are playing them with pads you may not be getting the same sensitivity.

Yeah, but fighters and shooters use digital control and require really precise control. Of course analog will work fine for a flight sim, but for a fighter where you have to hit the exact right direction to activate a move its terrible. Does that even apply to your post? I dont know

You're joking right? We are talking about the broken cross d-pad, right?

Its easy to hit diagonals on ps2. I've never had a problem with it in my life (and remember, I've been playing on pads since 3 years old.)

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:10 am

PS1/2 d-pad is the worst d-pad ever invented. I'm really surprised that two people think it's any good...other than those who think it's only there to select menu items.

Post by **Ghegs** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:19 am

Damocles wrote:PS1/2 d-pad is the worst d-pad ever invented. I'm really surprised that two people think it's any good...other than those who think it's only there to select menu items.

Hardly. I think it's competent enough, I played with DS2 exclusively (and got some all-clears) before I got my Saturn-style pads.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:23 am

Ok...now I'm really wondering if we're talking about the same thing...

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:37 am

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:34 am

The Playstation pads are good. I don't know why people shit over them all the time. They don't have problems with diagonals (not with me anyways), are precise, and last for a while. How are they horrendously bad when they're better than most major consoles' pads. NES, SNES, Gen, DC, N64, GC, and Xbox, pads (especially the d-pads) are bad. Hell, PS/PS2 pads beat my PC pad which is supposedly really good according to reviews online.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:43 pm

Zebra Airforce wrote:pic

I know what's different! It's silver!

All it's good for is menu stuff. The diagonals are fine, but using it for any length of time just utterly fucks up my hand. My Logitech controller is 100x better. Not only is the d-pad better, the entire controller is smaller and I can grip it better.

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:08 am

Rumblepad 2? I liked the d-pad on that, but less than a year after buying it it wore out. I don't think I was overly hard on it, since my SNES pads lasted many years, but I did use it pretty much every day.

Other than the pad, the grips and plastic start/select/analog buttons are improvements over the dual shock, but the square analog stick mounts are a big step down. Someone should get both controllers in the same room, put out wine and romantic music, and snatch their love-child.

Now if you're talking about the Logitech dual action you're completely insane, since that has the absolute worst d-pad I've ever seen.

Otherwise, I'd say that the dual shock / rumblepad 2 style controller is best for the greatest variety of games, and the N64 controller was the most comfortable.

themachinist · Post by **themachinist** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:54 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:

I also use this for my PS2 shmupping. It works well for me...

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:11 am

Mortificator wrote:Rumblepad 2? I liked the d-pad on that, but less than a year after buying it it wore out. I don't think I was overly hard on it, since my SNES pads lasted many years, but I did use it pretty much every day.

Other than the pad, the grips and plastic start/select/analog buttons are improvements over the dual shock, but the square analog stick mounts are a big step down. Someone should get both controllers in the same room, put out wine and romantic music, and snatch their love-child.

Been done. Called the Logitech Action 2 Controller.
link

Rumblepad 2's d-pad with round analog stick mounts.

I use this and am more then happy with it. The only problem is that the shoulder buttons are a little more stiff then the DualShock 2's. It's smaller and fits in my hand better. It feels more comfortable to hold too.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:53 am

Meh. I still don't get it. I'd rather use an Xbox d-pad than that broken cross. Hell, I'd say the DC d-pad is more comfortable. I'll give you the NES, N64, and GC pads, but would take a SNES or Genny pad...unless they're old and worn out...

...and that's not even including the analogue sticks, which are also pieces of crap. Try a FPS on the Xbox then the PS2. The PS2 sticks are nowhere near as sensitive or precise.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:21 am

Shatterhand wrote:
some people grab the stick by the center piece with their left hand, which is madness, I say
everyone I knew did that, and it took me a while to notice. I always grabbed it left hand at the left piece and right hand at the right piece, EVEN when the game used the analog stick.

But even the N64 manual tells you to grab the controller by the center piece when playing an analog stick game - And there's even a more weird setup, with you using your RIGHT hand at the center piece and your left hand at the left piece, and this is in the N64 manual! Though I've only seen one game using this setup.

Heh, I always just jumped right into games, didn't bother with the manuals. I figure holding the stick by the middle would be better for ergonomics, but 10 years with the thing AND the placement of the left shoulder button have made it impossible for me to change (although you don't really need the left shoulder in many games, including Goldeneye/Perfect Dark). I'm a creature of habit.

I'm used to having weird control setups - in fact my mouse isn't straight on its pad, the top is pointing to 1 o'clock so I have to compensate all the time. Makes drawing a straight line trickier than it needs be.

I don't really like the PSX d-pad; it's too small for my fingers. Having the directions separate could be a bonus, but I like to have the directions linked together.

General Martok · Post by **General Martok** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:30 am

Not every ps2 dualshock is the same. I have several of the official sony ones and they all feel a bit different , some of them with stiffer dpads than others .
I used to be one of the people who defended them until I switched to saturn / geneses 6 button pads. It made a world of difference - much more precise , smoother and responsive /easier on the thumb.

I didn't even know that the ps2 dpad is analog until I read this thread ...is the anolog function even used by any game?

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:33 am

Damocles wrote:Meh. I still don't get it. I'd rather use an Xbox d-pad than that broken cross. Hell, I'd say the DC d-pad is more comfortable. I'll give you the NES, N64, and GC pads, but would take a SNES or Genny pad...unless they're old and worn out...

...and that's not even including the analogue sticks, which are also pieces of crap. Try a FPS on the Xbox then the PS2. The PS2 sticks are nowhere near as sensitive or precise.

I just single credit cleared DDP with the broken cross. I've done ESPgaluda as well. It's all about what you're used to. I've never played any shooters on the Xbox, but playing Guilty Gear XX #Reload was MUCH more difficult with the Xbox d-pad than the PS2 broken cross. Now, the broken cross is by no means a particularly good d-pad, but it's not all that bad either. The gamecube d-pad on the other hand? Damn thing is way too small.

As for analogue sticks, I've never played a PS2 game that uses them and also requires any sort of precision... So I can't comment on how suck they are =)

With all that said... Model 2 Saturn pad > All

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:42 am

Teehee. Whereas I'm quite comfortable using the X-Box d-pad for GGXX#R...though it wasn't all that fun for MS3...or 4 or 5.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:47 am

Well, when it comes right down to it... I've seen some AMAZINGLY good Guilty Gear and Melty Blood players who use THE GOD DAMN KEYBOARD! And our very own Prometheus just took the #1 slot in DDP, playing with a keyboard =P

If you can get 170M+ points in DDP with a keyboard, then what you're using to control the game doesn't matter. Pad, stick, whatever works for you.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:48 am

Japanese Arcade sticks for me (no HAPP).

Not much pressure on the hands when using a stick (my hands hurt more when using any D-Pad).

The Genesis controllers were OK, Saturn Model 2 D-Pads were great, and the DC controllers were shit.

NES up to Gamecube controllers = shit.

The Playstation D-Pad is OK. I'm use to it, but I prefer to use a stick.

Sadly for my PS1 I'm having a hard time finding those Hori Fighting sticks. The Saturn ones were great.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:56 am

The Dreamcast controller is actually a really mixed bag for me. I can't play fighting games on it at all. Being used to the broken cross makes it so that I often jump when trying to do an uppercut or double quarter circle on the DC pad. I need to get a PSX -> DC adapter so I can use my HRAP on my Dreamcast for games like Garou and Project Justice.

On the ohter hand, I love the DC pad for shooters. I cleared Ikaruga and Triggerheart with it, got close on Under Defeat (boredom kicked my ass harder than the game did, so I stopped playing), and play Zero Gunner 2, Bangai-O, Cannon Spike, and Gunbird 2 from time to time without much difficulty.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:58 am

Arvandor wrote:The Dreamcast controller is actually a really mixed bag for me. I can't play fighting games on it at all. Being used to the broken cross makes it so that I often jump when trying to do an uppercut or double quarter circle on the DC pad. I need to get a PSX -> DC adapter so I can use my HRAP on my Dreamcast for games like Garou and Project Justice.

On the ohter hand, I love the DC pad for shooters. I cleared Ikaruga and Triggerheart with it, got close on Under Defeat (boredom kicked my ass harder than the game did, so I stopped playing), and play Zero Gunner 2, Bangai-O, Cannon Spike, and Gunbird 2 from time to time without much difficulty.

If there's a converter for Saturn to PSX then I'm in heaven.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:02 am

Fighter17 wrote:NES up to Gamecube controllers = shit.

What's wrong with the SNES pads? They introduced shoulder buttons, for one.

-Bridget- · Post by **-Bridget-** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:08 am

Damocles wrote:Teehee. Whereas I'm quite comfortable using the X-Box d-pad for GGXX#R...though it wasn't all that fun for MS3...or 4 or 5.

Oh, I remember using the Xbox d-pad for #Reload as well.

Later on, though, I got the ability to import PS2 games, and GG Slash for that.

And then, I sold the entire Xbox.....

I play the Guilty Gear series, and my assorted shmups, absolutely to death, and as much as I HAAAAAAAAAAAAATE to say this...... given how much I HAAAAAAAAAAAAATE Sony...... I swear by the PS2's d-pad and it's accuracy, easily over the Xbox or the 360 pad (though the 360 one is better than the original, but not by much).

I just cant see playing something like Mushihime or Dai-ou-jou on an Xbox's d-pad..... that'd be ALOT of crashing into things for me.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:17 am

I leik use a keyboard cuz I'm right handed lol

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:30 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:
Fighter17 wrote:NES up to Gamecube controllers = shit.
What's wrong with the SNES pads? They introduced shoulder buttons, for one.

D-Pad.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:09 pm

Fighter17 wrote: NES up to Gamecube controllers = shit.

I happen to like the SNES controller 'Control Pad' alot, the best pad out there.

(I hate the Playstation ones, personally.)