Making your own shmups.........programs

postman · Post by **postman** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:32 pm

Hey, has anyone fooled around with programs that help you create shooters?

I just found Gamemaker, and it has a 2-D shooter tutorial on the site, and I could follow it with background scrolling but got lost with objects and behaviors.

Also there is Prelude shooter engine, but I couldn't get it to work and the makers are hard to get in contact with.

Any other programs I don't know about (without knowing any programming skills)? Figure maybe it's about time I started making rather than playing shooters.

Post by **Ghegs** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:50 pm

There's Dezaemon for PSX, Saturn, SNES and god knows what systems. I understand Dezaemon Kids is the best to get started with, as it has uses more symbols and icons compared to the text-heavy japanese the other versions have. Kids also comes with a second CD full of games made with it. I hear some of them are rather good, too.

cdawg4949 · Post by **cdawg4949** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:15 pm

I have been using GameMaker 6 for about 1 1/2 weeks and am loving it so far!!!! I have no programming experience whatsoever and am almost done with level one!!! I am gonna put it up here in a few days. Hoping everyone will give it a try and gimmie some feed back.

-CODY-

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:18 pm

What about the good old SEUCK?

I always wanted to try it, but never found a copy.

Stormwatch · Post by **Stormwatch** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:06 am

What about Macromedia Flash?

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:49 am

Stormwatch wrote:What about Macromedia Flash?

I started toying with flash for this very reason. I still don't know enough about it, but I'm worried that large amounts of objects might slow down the interpreter.

stoneroses · Post by **stoneroses** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:40 am

I did a very simple Astroids clone in Macromedia Director once. I think you can do some cool stuff with this and Macromedia Flash.

The nice part is that you can play them over the web and have preloaders so once it loads, there wont be any slowdown unless you want to give it that old school effect. I have always thought about trying to do something like Raiden in Flash but I wouldn't know where to begin.

EddyMRA · Post by **EddyMRA** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:59 pm

I use Multimedia Fusion to make my two shmups. http://www.clickteam.com

karasuman · Post by **karasuman** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:07 pm

Shooters are relatively easy to code if you know C/C++ and some have some notion of how to set up scripting. I figure that once I finally get a game finished, I would try to release the engine for people to use, since it's relatively straightforward to at least do custom scripting language files.

Of course, my laziness is something of a problem here, haha.

You could try the BulletML games, they seem to let you come up with your own patterns. One funny thing is that in my engine I used XML for the scripting files (because it is easy to parse), then afterward I found out that noiz2sa and rRootage use the same concept, haha. Well, the setup is somewhat different in my engine, with loops and variables and the like.

GameMaker and the like are cool, but you will run into limitations. However, if you don't know anything about programming and just want to have fun, then by all means go for it. ^_^

Strychnine · Post by **Strychnine** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:55 pm

karasuman wrote:Shooters are relatively easy to code if you know C/C++ and some have some notion of how to set up scripting. I figure that once I finally get a game finished, I would try to release the engine for people to use, since it's relatively straightforward to at least do custom scripting language files.

GameMaker and the like are cool, but you will run into limitations. However, if you don't know anything about programming and just want to have fun, then by all means go for it. ^_^

If you do that, I'll give you my first born - twice.

I really want to get back into coding, but I really dont' have time, and the frustration of running into bugs would probably make me give up relatively quickly. I also feel like I should concentrate one area (graphics) rather than be a jack of all trades.

Media Fusion looks like it is quite capable as well

BTW, karasuman is your shmup up on the web?

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:03 pm

Ghegs wrote:

I understand Dezaemon Kids is the best to get started with, as it has uses more symbols and icons compared to the text-heavy japanese the other versions have. Kids also comes with a second CD full of games made with it.

More symbols. Man I want that game, my eyes are bleeding from trying to figure out Dezaemon 2. I think I now have enough knowledge to put a tiny something together (no boss though, can't figure how to put one in).

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:17 am

(no boss though, can't figure how to put one in).

If I remember correctly, you get to spread enemies on your levelmap within the menu icon called "Zako". Now, bosses have a special menu icon of their own, and it should be placed beside "Zako". Maybe it´s even called "boss", I´m not sure anymore (it´s been a few years).
You can do a lot of creative stuff with bosses, like giving them destroyable parts. If you want to see how the tricky stuff is done (linescrolling, parallax, etc.), it´s also a good idea to examine the premade samples closely.
Last year I started a project called "Bullet Ballet", it was supposed to be a versatile graphic editor for making shmups. To test it properly and create some prototypes, I asked for people to use it, and 8 new shmup projects were started. Honestly, after not hearing anymore from all but one of them for more than half a year, I´ve become rather tired of the whole idea. There is still a working beta version, and the old conditions (anyone who sends one sprite for the player ship and one sprite for the first enemy gets the program) still apply. It might also be interesting for people capable of programming, as there are some nice intuitive ideas for creating bullet patterns, stage design and so on in there. I´m not into this whole DRM shit, anybody who wants to use these ideas can do so freely, as long as you mention my name somewhere in your project.
Another thing I can recommend is Blitzbasic. The editor, as well as my first shmup called Bloodrain, were done in Blitzbasic, and it´s a great combination of a powerful, yet easily accessible programing language. I tried C++ with Allegro in comparison, and there was no noticable performance increase to justify the added amount of work needed to realize a project in that language. This might be different if you´re going the 3d backgrounds route, I´m not yet qualified to answer this question.

postman · Post by **postman** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:28 am

Great ideas all -

Flash is a good choice, but I've only messed with it a little, and that was a movie, so changing over to a game would require lots of work. Dezaemon looks like it can produce some high quality stuff - I've got to dig out my links to some Japanese Daze contest results sites - but it would be hard to get a hold of (and it's Japanese!). And just mentioning C++ gives me the willies. I think Gamemaker would be the way to go, if anything ever materializes. I want to mess with Prelude, but Ishraam is hard to get in contact with, and the forum on his site doesn't work, and I need some technical support.............

I'll probably just stick to playing for now though..........

Aggrav8d · Post by **Aggrav8d** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:33 am

Wow. I only just found out about SHMUPS and already I find a thread that is exactly what I'm all about. I've been writing a SHMUP called <b>Shoot Shoot, Bang Bang</b> for about 3 weeks now and it is flying along (no pun intended).

Major features:
- Runs on Windows and Linux (and soon OSX)
- Fully scriptable (even the GUI)
- Play mouse, keyboard, or joystick
- Play with a friend at the same computer!

I would estimate that it is 75% feature complete in the code and the hardest part of my job will be level design and finding original sounds/music (I know the true SHMUPpers will recognize the placeholder music). The current version is top-down 2D but it could just as easily be side-scrolling with 3D meshes. All that it needs is a few good level designers

You can read all about it here

The official page for SSBB is here

I guess I'm telling you guys & gals because I could always use a little positive and/or constructive feedback to keep me motivated. I hope that when I've got the code done I can release it as shareware and then provide free tools to the paying customers so that they can create their own levels, mission packs, etc. To that end I hope that you'll tell me what I've overlooked so that I can make it the one-stop-shop for all your SHMUPping needs.

I'm a veteran game maker and, IMHO, if GameMaker or Flash were really going to be all that good...wouldn't someone have created a hit with them already? For those just learning the basics of game design or for those who don't want to get elbows deep in the guts of C/C++ it's probably a good starting point.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:37 am

Welcome to the forum, Aggrav8d.

Indie shmup developers are becoming an increasingly important part of the shmup game community, and are always welcome here. Regarding your comment about Shockwave Flash's potential for shmups, you can find an interesting proof-of-concept here, a recreation of a portion of Ikaruga (now updated to include some partial backgrounds, I notice)

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:51 pm

Alluro used "Multimedia Fusion" (http://www.clickteam.com/) to make Xeno Fighters EX and his other game, and those are both fantastic. I don't know much about the software, but I figured I'd point people in that direction nonetheless.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:02 pm

@Aggrav8d: I like the style of your game, but here´s a little wishlist what I think you could improve:

- joypad support
- customizable mouse sensitivity
- a smaller hitzone for the spaceship
- something like a "game over" after the stage is finished (this is probably planned, anyway)
- music in the title screen. Having an option to adjust volume doesn´t make much sense if you can´t hear anything while adjusting.

visuatrox · Post by **visuatrox** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:36 pm

SEUCK on good ol Amiga and C64 was a lot of fun, and extremely easy to use. But unfortunately it was also very limited when it comes to graphics and animation frames.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:01 pm

i know about the enemy editor, "Zako," and the boss page is labeled "Boss." However, in the boss edit menus it doesn't seem obvious of how you "place" the boss within the level.

For example: Within my level, say I want to put the Boss at scroll point 50 (arbitrary really). I don't know how to take my boss and tell the game when I want it to appear. Do I place it somehow like with the enemies (select and paste) or what?

Thanks very much for the advice by the way.

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:34 pm

There's even some great learning in coding your own "shooter" API. It's basic simplicity lends itself to being a great "stage 2" learning program for game writing.

That said, I think it would be quite cool for indies here and out there on the 'net to use something like ABA's BulletML. Wouldn't it be neat to have games created that could trade patterns, users could script the bullets (and the enemy paths?) etc.

Bill

Aggrav8d · Post by **Aggrav8d** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:18 pm

Raiden -

Thanks for the feedback.

Joypad support should already be there (provided SDLlib understands joypads). I have not yet been able to test the system because I'm still waiting for my Lik-Sang delivery of a PS2/PC adapter. Soon. Soon.

The mouse sensitivy of all devices can be customized in the current.cfg file, as well as rearranged (like switching mouse buttons for left-handed people).

The hitzone is something that needs to be tweaked as part of the overall game design, you're not the first person to mention it

The end-of-level and end-of-game sequences have been coded but there is nothing to trigger them. The plan is to make a level boss and have the end-of-level trigger called when the boss dies.

You're very correct about the menu music, I'm still looking for something to use. Something with a funky retro synthy feel, something exciting. We shall see.

RedKnight · Post by **RedKnight** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:59 am

Hey.
(wassup Postman

)

And I have to say.
Go with C/C++ , even thought I do like more of the old "C" then "C++"

I see that Aggrav8d has been working 3 weeks with his shmup.

But I have been working about a year now, with my game.

I'm a veteran game maker and, IMHO, if GameMaker or Flash were really going to be all that good...wouldn't someone have created a hit with them already? For those just learning the basics of game design or for those who don't want to get elbows deep in the guts of C/C++ it's probably a good starting point.

And I totally agree with you with this one.

What is finish:
-3d Milkshape models ( Game Engine )-
-Flocking Patterns for enemies.-
-Lock On Homing Laser.-
-Dual Bullet reflecting Blades.-

Things to do.:
-created more 3d animated models.-
-Need some kick ass sounds (baddly)-
-scripting.-
-and alot of little details. such as Particles, explosions, Lens flare , etc etc-

Things I have in mind.
-Transformable Robots Bosses.-
-Hardcore bullets patterns.-
- Finish it on February or March-

This my http://360.digitalthinker.org where you can check my demos.
I'll release a tech demo as soon as I finished with some special effects.

Aggrav8d · Post by **Aggrav8d** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:54 am

RedKnight -

Don't feel bad about it taking a year. My previous game, FREAKIN, is still under development and that's after more than 16 months. The code is 99.99% done but the level designs need a lot of work. (I only started SSBB because I have time to kill before the next phase of FREAKIN development can move ahead)

I think the major reasons for the speed difference in the two projects are
a) I didn't try to build an "engine" for SSBB
b) I knew exactly what I was aiming to create with SSBB
c) I already had all the commercial infrastructure & project organization set up for SSBB

So don't get discouraged. I know sometimes it may seem like the project will never end but when it does you will take the lessons learned and the next one will be over in the blink of an eye, by comparison.

I, for one, wish you the best of luck.

For anyone else out there who wants to learn about making games with C/C++ I highly reccomend http://www.flipcode.com. There may be a lot of other sites but they seem to keep the usefull info/trolling ratio higher than the competition.

StealthNinjaScyther · Post by **StealthNinjaScyther** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:53 am

Just started my first programming class a few weeks ago. Yeah, I suck at programming.... but I haven't given up yet.

Well, anyway, I do plan to start making my own games eventually. Though I'm not being taught C/C++. Instead I'm learning about Java. So how does it stack up and how hard would it be to make the transition to other languages if I would need to? I know java is plenty capable to make games, but to what extent/difficulty? Anyone know?

nullpointer · Post by **nullpointer** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:12 am

yo..
I ve been programming for years now..
You can check my new shmuppy thing on the seperate 'endless fire' thread.. But as for writing a shmup.

I use opengl and c++ with milkshape for modelling and psp for gfx
I use free soujnd samples mp3 for bg music..

But C++ is a complex thing to learn to start with...
Even though the core of programming is the same in most languages
(Especially c and java) the difficult part is often dealing with the api interfaces (the bits of programing that enable you to draw gfx, play sound etc). This is where gamemaker,opengl etc help

You coud write a shmup like rrootage in macromedia director if you wanted. The language you use doesnt matter initially. Its only when you want to do crazy 3d stuff or mad fx that you might need a better language. (But unless youre already quite competent then i wouldnt start with those things anyway!)

Java is fine.. (see alien flux and the noisza applet), the ony problem ive found is although its supposed to be x-platform and fast, its often slower than it should be and not as x-platfrm as it should be (but ths is due to local VM impementations etc)

And I never had any education in programming, i learned basic on my spectrum as a kid and then learned c++ later.

As Aggrav8d says.. flipcode is good, as is gamedev.net
for learning stuff on code.. and also any dev lists that are attached to the technology you pck.. so directx mailing list etc..

But like learning real languages, once you know a bit of one, the others become easier to follow too...

My advice is just to pick something simple to begin with and just make it the best you can, rather than trying to write a milllion level masterpeice..
For eg, i've been writing bullet eater (my shump) for over a year now.. and i still use scrolling starfield backgrounds!

bydoslave · Post by **bydoslave** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:26 am

i have made a couple of games using click products. i find mmf, multimedia fusion to be alright once you get a hang of the wierd interface.

made this one:
http://hem.bredband.net/b307762/

Berty · Post by **Berty** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:01 pm

This is what i have been using...

Microsoft Visual Studio 2003 Pro
Borland C++ Builder
3D studio max 6
Paint Shop Pro
Animation Shop

I have also been using the SDL game libs, as well as a custom 3D add-on for SDL that is still in development. Bullet ML is also being used.

I am a sound engineer by profession so i have got access to ProTools HD for all of my sound stuff.

RedKnight · Post by **RedKnight** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:57 pm

Don't feel bad about it taking a year. My previous game, FREAKIN, is still under development and that's after more than 16 months. The code is 99.99% done but the level designs need a lot of work. (I only started SSBB because I have time to kill before the next phase of FREAKIN development can move ahead)

16 month is not much when You compare it with my 2 year old
unfinished Quake 3 BSP engine (which you can download from my site)
I once thaught that I can create a Game Like "Deus Ex", and sell it for some big $$$$

I was in desperate need of money, I also thaught that I can create a
Top notch Quality shmup in 3/4 months.
(I heard that some shmups can make some nice money too)
But once again I underestimate the size and time of an average shmup.

when I'm done this project I wanted to move to a
sword base fighting game project of mine, which I always wanted to do.
and I also having some ideas on how to create a FPS shooter
with stacked milkshape cellshading models.

My advice is just to pick something simple to begin with and just make it the best you can, rather than trying to write a milllion level masterpeice..
For eg, i've been writing bullet eater (my shump) for over a year now.. and i still use scrolling starfield backgrounds!

That way you can never improve your programming skills.

nullpointer · Post by **nullpointer** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 pm

My advice is just to pick something simple to begin with and just make it the best you can, rather than trying to write a milllion level masterpeice..
For eg, i've been writing bullet eater (my shump) for over a year now.. and i still use scrolling starfield backgrounds!

That way you can never improve your programming skills.

[/quote]

I think you misunderstand me,
By starting small you actually get to finish something and make it look good and play well! Once you have done that you know where you are at and how much better your next project can be!
A simple but innovative game like warning forever will get more plays/feedback and respect than a never finished project.

You can improve your programming skills while writing a tetris clone, The other way leads to !!!!Engineitis!!! the bane of all amateur game programmers

You have to remember that even commercial shmups (which have relatively small dev teams) often take a year of full time programming/gfx/sfx etc by professionals..

check the stuff that pompom are doing too, theres only 2 of them but they still make some pretty good games by keeping them small enough to be manageable/acheivable..

You only have to look at the best homebrew indie shmups to know what level to pitch your creation at..

Hmm wonder whats the most complex indie?
Probably Kamui? or maybe one of the shangahi alice games?

check http://www.nullpointer.co.uk/-/endless.htm

for my current shmup tester..

RedKnight · Post by **RedKnight** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:25 pm

Test my demo.
http://360.digitalthinker.org/Downloads/shmup.zip

shmups.system11.org

Making your own shmups.........programs

Making your own shmups.........programs

Dezaemon series

in response to Raidens suggestions on Dezaemon