Generally, how is it best to improve your skills?

[apocalypse]

I'm talking generally here, no specific tips on a particular game. Just shmups of course.

Basically, if you buy "Shmup X", how do you approach 1-CCing it? Do you just constantly play 3 credits until you die? Do you just use 1 credit? Do you go into practice mode and constantly play a stage you suck at over and over?

I'm just curious. I realize that you don't become amazing at a particular game overnight. I'm looking for some general tips on how to approach 1-CCing a game, or simply even imrpoving at a shooter.

[jp]

Just use 1 credit... if you play using all the credits chances are you won't get much better.

And if you want to sharpen your dodging skills then try playing the ABA games stuff... (Noiz2a, rRootage, etc.).

[JBC]

I usually just play on the game's default settings at first and i get to where i can at least beat the game with a credit or so left. This usually takes a week or two depending on how often i'm playing (i don't have much free time).

After that i try to clear it in 3 or less credits. This is usually where i start feeling a little skillful. Once i can do that i stay like this for awhile until i'm pretty much clearing it only continuing once at most.

By this time i've been randomly playing the game on and off for a couple months or so. I take my time because if i try to force it on myself i'll not enjoy the game as much. By this point though i'm pretty confident in my ability to amp up the difficulty.

Now i play it on the harder modes until i can clear it in under 3 or so credits. Once i can do that i go back to normal and see how much i've improved, which is usually drastic.

Honestly though in the end what really makes me improve is just experience itself. No one picks up a shmup and 1cc's it right away so don't worry. Relax when you play and really don't try to hard to get good at a game. Stay in the moment and just dodge them bullets as they come to you!

[zakk]

Just use 1 credit... if you play using all the credits chances are you won't get much better.

Completely wrong for me. I improve way quicker if I do a bit of credit feeding. It helps to actually see the layout/patterns when you're not in 'holy shit I just got past that part I've been stuck at wtf wtf oh shit' mode.

There's a difference between productive credit-feeding 'I want to start setting up a path through the rest of the game/stage/wtf ever' and unproductive credit feeding 'I'm so overwhelmed I'm just dying+bombing constantly and feeding yet more credits into the game' The trick is realizing when you've started doing the latter.

Say I get to the last boss of a game 25% of the the times I play. I'm going to start credit feeding to the last boss 100% of the times I play; it allows me to work on all the problems I may have that are preventing me from increasing that 25%, also it means I have more experience with the boss patterns. This increases the chance that on one of those runs that I DO get to it, I actually beat it.

[shoe-sama]

Learn and implement obvious dodging strats.

Bullet herding and stuff like that.

And focus on bullets that are more lethal. Generally, if you know where something's going without even looking (aimed bullets, certain unaimed patterns), pay little attention to it.

For game specific strat, trial and error learning (lol memorization) is big. It applies to all games, since only the insane repeat strategies that get them killed. More emphasis on it for some games though.

Learn and repeat motions and dodging strategies that guarantee survival. Once you've figured out how to dodge boss X reliably, it's just a matter of doing the same thing every time you face it.

If there's a safe spot or speedkill or anything that greatly reduces effort involved, abuse it.

[NAVVARR]

I've found that playing a frenetic shooter- ie one that really throws a lot of bullets at me- Mars Matrix Ikaruga -etc etc -then moving back to something a bit more sedate- like T-Zero or the original R-Type- really makes me more responsive.

-Sometimes playing a shooter where you are constantly on edge seems to improve the concentratration and natural reflexes - so you do things instinctively- generally as soon as you have to start thinking about escape routes or avoiding bullet- its game over time.

Incidentally- i should probably start a new thread- but- anyone ever play 'Star Force' on MAME- ever- its a cracker to just have a blast on.

[JBC]

If there's a safe spot or speedkill or anything that greatly reduces effort involved, abuse it.

Sometimes i find that this can bite me in the ass later on though. In most games that feature these easy way outs you only have a moment to get on the spot and have to have perfect timing. If you miss that moment then you'll have to deal with an unfamiliar boss pattern right in the middle of a so far perfect run. I suggest using these only to begin with and once you feel confident enough to not exploit them start learning the patterns and what not. In the end it's best to know all tactics at each point that way you can improvise based on your situation.

[shoe-sama]

And if you want to sharpen your dodging skills then try playing the ABA games stuff... (Noiz2a, rRootage, etc.).

That hasn't exactly worked too well for me. The strategies for taking down relatively slow bullets are significantly different from those for dealing with higher bullet speeds in the more mainstream shmups. There's a good number of skills that don't transfer between slow speed high volume and high speed low volume shmups.

[GateofThunderforceIII]

I agree with NAVVARR. My shooting skills (though still nowhere near the 1cc gods here) have greatly improved thanks to playing ESPGaluda. I know this is one of the easier modern shooters, but it has taught me to stay relaxed and dodge when I see hundreds of bullets on screen rather than immediately panic and bomb. I still can't 1cc Galuda (have gotten the last boss's life down to 1/8 at best), but I feel some improvements if I take a little break from it while playing something like Mushihimesama or Dodonpachi Daiojou. Strangely, older shooters that actually aim for you and shoot bullets 5 times your ship's speed still kick my ass, but not as much as before.

[scrilla4rella]

Totally agree with what zakk said about productive credit feeding. While I certainly like to see how far I can get on 1c for the first week of a new shmup, putting in a couple more credits to see how far it gets me really helps me get more familiar with the latter stages, stages that I might not get to that often but when I do I'll know them a little better will be more relaxed in.

[stratos]

About bullet speed/bullet density:

I think that modern manics games (those with large amounts of slow bulletts) requires a great amount of skills, not only a great memorization work. I'll try to explain this.


If you play, for example, Twin Cobra after two months of intense DDP DOJ playing, you'll probably find TC much more difficult, because your hitbox is huge, bulletts are fast and your ship speed slow. But in those games, strategy and memorization are the key to victory: in the first section of TC you think the game is impossible to deal with, while instead you need only to find out that you have just to eliminate particular enemies before others to simplify your life and survive without problems; if we think the scoring system is also very simple, we understand that in this old style game you need especially tactics and memorization, while in manics you need also a great amount of skill that are necessary to navigate through intricate bullet patterns, like those in the second part of DOJ stage four.


Then, there are Psykio games, that are a mixture of both generes...


However this doesn't mean I don't like Twin Cobra or similar games, I only wanted to explain differences.


So, playing manics helps you to improve play vision and bullet trajectory calculation, especially in patterns, and this can help you also in classic games, but then you'll need also to know perfectly avery passage of the game if you want to survive; for example, the first times I played Eliminate Down for Genesis I thought the game was very hard. Then I cleared it in ten days and I ensure you that you don't need any skill to clear it, except in a few couple of sections, you simply have to know what to do in every situation.

[Arvandor]

DDP: DOJ made me instantly better at ESPgaluda. True story.

[Diabollokus]

Depends on the game for me Only 1CC'd a few TF4 and Border Down most recent ones.

I find credit feed until the games beaten then take each level in turn and practice it until I only get killed once works well, that helped me alot in Gradius V and Ikaruga.

Play a variety of shmups, Playing gigawing and mars matrix helped me dodge shit loads of bullets. I suck at manics though, never know where to go.

[Frederik]

As for the main game I actually "practice", Dodonpachi, which I play in MAME, I make savestates for every stage beginning and for the bosses. This way, I have an instant practice mode, without any loading time or all that stuff. I used to play stage 4 and 5 very often and got so much better because of this. I restarted the savestate once I died, though, so I was really pushing myself.

The downside compared to gradually learning the game like you do in Arcades without continuing is that you are not that competent in complete runs - things like bomb distribution and weighting risk versus reward etc. don´t come into consideration when you practice the stages isolated. However, concentrated training on a stage like stage 5 that seemed overwhelming at first (or the stage 4 boss) got better much quicker.

[icepick]

I haven't really practiced too much, but I recently started playing the ABA games so I have been practicing with those.

Coincidentally, I've been doing this myself as well. I'd always liked things like rRootage and Gunroar, but recently, I decided to try to get through normal mode on rRootage stage by stage, and it's actually really neat to preview the levels and look back on how far you've come. I think that I'm at 5B or 5C right now, after a week or two of on-and-off playing.

It's weird, because of how your subconscious (or whatever) processes things when you do a little bit at a time. There are times where I know I scraped through on luck, and other times where I was like "wow, did I actually do that?" There are some things (appearing sideways bullets, for one) that I never thought that I'd get the hang of, but they're actually starting to make sense.

I'd prefer to focus more on memorizing things on the smaller level... as in, learning from common mistakes that I make, developing an instinct for bullet trajectory, things like that. I don't want to get into the kind of memorization where you go, "okay, I need to be here for this, and I need to do this-this-that for that," and so on, even if I have to.

So, I have to say that I really appreciated shoe-sama's post. I almost laughed when I read "bullet herding," because I've been learning to do exactly that, this past week.

"Cooome on! I'm over here! Come over, follow me! There you go, off the screen with you! Good bullets."

(I mean, I first noticed myself doing that in Under Defeat, but in some of the stages in rRootage, it takes me a while to realize that there are aimed shots inside the manic patterns since I'm distracted by figuring out where to go.)

It helps to actually see the layout/patterns when you're not in 'holy shit I just got past that part I've been stuck at wtf wtf oh shit' mode.

I kinda like that feeling though, so until I get enough, I'm probably going to stick to my "try from the beginning" methodology. It's all a matter of objective, though, so I understand what you mean.

If someone feels that they've been stuck at a particular part for nearly way too long, then a bit of consideration is in order. For me, I have a while to go I think, so I'm going to keep trying and switching between games until something clicks.

I think that switching off between games and simply getting used to them at a personally-healthy pace is the best way.

[SFKhoa]

I find myself getting better at a faster rate if the game "forces you to start over from the beginning, as in 0 continues forever by default". Examples including Cho Ren Sha, Samidare, Gradius V (somewhat).

[shoe-sama]

Being familiar with game mechanics for what you're playing helps a lot too. Details such as no collision detection with ground enemies and temporary invincibility after powering up can be abused.

[freddiebamboo]

Playing 1 credit is good mixed in with lots of practice on the later stages with stage select and save states.

1 credit is fine but you can get sick of a game quickly seeing that first stage over and over again.

Asking questions on the strategy section is the best way to make progress though. Superplays and such like don't convey fully whats needed to beat/score a game (watch a mushi or garegga replay for example). It's not how they play the game, but why their doing what their doing.

[Arvandor]

(I mean, I first noticed myself doing that in Under Defeat,

This game actually started to help me with some things that help in all shooters, that I didn't pick up from Mars Matrix or Ikaruga somehow. It helped me to track dangerous bullets, and not dangerous bullets, and keep them seperated (Ie, notice when a fast aimed bullet is coming through a bullet maze that isn't of much threat, but the aimed bullet is). It also is helping me to pay attention to A LOT more at once, since I've started trying to aim at specific ground targets while also dodging messes of stuff. Oh yeah, it's also somehow helped me find holes in clouds that look holeless. Like, I can tell which bullets are going which direction, and I can sort out where a hole is going to appear once they move a bit further. This last point alone has helped my ESPgaluda game so much I can't even begin to descrbie. I learned bullet herding in Mars Matrix, but UD can only help in this area ^_^ Especially getting popcorn enemies to fire their aimed shots at the most opportune and riskless times.

I dunno, it's kind of weird, because Under Defeat(1st loop) isn't NEARLY as difficult as Ikaruga or Mars Matrix, but it seems to be forcing me to learn better shmuping techniques I didn't pick up from the two harder games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just use 1 credit... if you play using all the credits chances are you won't get much better.

Completely wrong for me. I improve way quicker if I do a bit of credit feeding. It helps to actually see the layout/patterns when you're not in 'holy shit I just got past that part I've been stuck at wtf wtf oh shit' mode.

Yep, although for me sometimes I lose interest in playing a game if I have seen far into the game - it makes the breakthroughs more exciting, as you say, and that's a plus as well as being a bit of a source of potential blow-ups.

[icepick]

This game actually started to help me with some things that help in all shooters, that I didn't pick up from Mars Matrix or Ikaruga somehow.

Really? That makes me happy to be learning with it, as I don't have MM or Ikaruga yet but would like to try them someday. It was funny how you kept remembering things that playing Under Defeat was helping you with, but mostly because I had similar "oh yeah!" thoughts while typing up a reply in this thread, although I decided to omit some of it because I've been talking way too much recently.

It helped me to track dangerous bullets, and not dangerous bullets, and keep them seperated (Ie, notice when a fast aimed bullet is coming through a bullet maze that isn't of much threat, but the aimed bullet is).

This is exactly what I was thinking about in my last post; How there's a big bullet formation but little aimed bullets sneak in... and before, I'd be like "where did that bullet come from?" or "how did I die?" but now, I get all weird and I'm like "ah, I see, I'm on to you now" with a suspicious smile on my face. I figured out that in some parts, the manic bullet patterns aren't necessarily the main attraction, but simply serve as a backdrop to make dodging/herding the aimed bullets slightly more challenging.

Like, I can tell which bullets are going which direction, and I can sort out where a hole is going to appear once they move a bit further.

Ah! I love these games.

That reminded me of how I've been noticing that myself as well. Maybe this counts as the memorization that I was saying that I didn't like, but it's moreso that jumbles of bullets appear as a mess at first, but after a while you can begin to discern where the pattern is (and where it's going). So, you can start to tell where you might generally have a shot at getting through a field of bullets, which sometimes happens to be near the bottom of the screen, or farther up or even the middle. I know that it sounds really simple and obvious, but it's something that I've been noticing.

Also, I've begun kind of "diving" into bullet patterns at when I believe is an "opportune time" and an opportune place, keeping an eye on where I am and for potential openings, and I'm actually starting to act when I see such openings materializing. Elementary of course, but a personal breakthrough nontheless.

[Arvandor]

Yeah, basically ^_^ It SEEMS simple noticing those holes, and really it is, but I've still noticed an improvement in my ESPgaluda game. And there are just times when I think to myself "Wow, Under Defeat made that potentially disastrous situation more managable."

I still think it's weird though, because UD isn't very difficult. Or maybe its BECAUSE it's not terribly difficult, and makes grasping certain concepts easier, rather than just getting by on memorization without understanding why what you're doing works... Or something... Also, UD is less memorization than most shooters.

[sikraiken]

From
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ght=#85934
(there's some other good stuff in that thread as well) :

Observe.
Experiment.
Learn from your mistakes.
Have fun playing. (If you aren't having fun, then you shouldn't be playing.)

I think this sums it up pretty well. The last one is the most important one.

You can better learn from your mistakes by making replays of yourself playing and look at what you could/should be doing better.

Try everything you can think of while playing.
Notice the little things while you play - they might end up making the biggest difference.
Impossible is nothing - never give up.
Don't get discouraged.
I believe competition fuels improvement, so try to find other people to play against to see how you're improving.
Don't worry if you think your scores aren't good yet.
Good scores come with time.
Be happy with your accomplishments, whatever they might be.
Mental state can play a role in how well you do - be optimistic.
Keep on playing, have fun playing.

[Kaiser]

To improve my skill, i play on 1 credit and using strategy on specific places like "how to make level 7 boss cry easily (hyper duel)", but first when i'm playing a lot on 1 credit i'm learning strategy for specific which helps a lot to clear game

[Aquas]

Also, I've begun kind of "diving" into bullet patterns at when I believe is an "opportune time" and an opportune place, keeping an eye on where I am and for potential openings, and I'm actually starting to act when I see such openings materializing. Elementary of course, but a personal breakthrough nontheless.

Yeah, I recently started doing this in Mushihime as well. Confidence among the bullet patterns helps a lot sometimes... I feel that as long as you can stay ontop of your position over the bullets, you've got a big advantage... but when those bullets have you escaping everywhich way at the bottom of the screen...you're in trouble. Find an opening that allows some safe leeway for a few seconds and start from that opening to look for another. Easier said than done, probably. But truly having the courage to weave forward through bullet patterns helps a lot.

I agree that having goals to work forward to will help in your progress a lot, or at least make it not as mundane. I just now got 66 million on stage 3 in Mushihime-sama... biggest I got yet there, even though it's a fraction of a score compared to the more flawless runs, it's my best yet... and I'm happy with it. But knowing that you have room to improve always helps I think.

I also find studying superplays can help. Some might think this is a cheap way to get better, because you're just reaping the nuances of a person's gameplay, but ultimatly it will let you realize your true potential faster.

[FRO]

For me, the adage "practice makes perfect" holds true. Just keep practicing. I've only owned Lords of Thunder (Sega CD version) for a few months, but I've already 1CC it. Legendary Wings I owned for years & only played it occassionally. One fateful afternoon I decided to just keep playing it, & I wound up with an easy 1CC. Other games have taken months (& even years) of studied practice just to get very far, but it varies from game to game.

Sorry I can't be more specific, but I've found that practice alone makes a difference. I also know being out of practice is killer on your shmup game. I used to be able to get to the level 4 boss in Raystorm on a single life - I booted the game up the other day, having not played in months, & lost 3 lives on the 2nd level boss. It's all a matter of honing your skills through continuous practice.

[FatCobra]

Generally, I try to see how far I can go on one credit, but if I'm not scoring well on that playthrough, I'll continue so I can learn the boss patterns (that usually never works though because I wind up bombing the crap out of them in revenge)

I should try that three credits only thing. I think I've hit a wall as far as "go on one credit is concerned."

[Arvandor]

Another thing. For some reason, if I play one shooter every day for however long (30 minutes to a couple hours), I'll eventually stop improving, or at least, improve MUCH more slowly. Sometimes I'll keep at it anyways, but sometimes I'll pick up a book and read for a week or two, or I'll play a different game (even a different shooter), then when I go back to the other shooter, sometimes I feel like I've improved while... NOT playing o_O I don't know how or why it works, but it sure seems to.

[Ed Oscuro]

When playing hard shmups: beat your head against a wall repeatedly. You're certain to get better

[ktownhero]

I am by no means a great shmup player (yet); but, just like everything else in life, there is no magic secret to getting better. Practice makes perfect.

Play, play and then play some more. Sometimes when I feel like I'm making no progress I like to take a little time off to clear my mind. Can be a few minutes or a few days, whatever it takes. Sometimes it helps to get away from a game for a bit, and come back with a fresh perspective. Right now I'm working on Ikaruga, but when it just gets to me, I boot up my Wii and play through Super Star Soldier. It's a good balance for me.