Best console display setup?

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:43 am

I'm currently using a standard CRT tv with s-video hookup and I don't think it's cutting it. I'm looking for some ideas on what the best setup is for 2d console gaming is.

I want to run a lot of systems on it, many that are old, (NES up to PS2) is an SCART mod feasible on most systems? Is there any type of CRT that can get you close to quality of an arcade monitor? Or is HDTV better for this stuff? Would an upscan converter like an xrgb-2 be good to get? I don't really know a heck of a lot about this so any ideas are helpful.

D · Post by D » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:29 am

crt and scart and yes most systems can be modded.
There's nothing more gratifying than moding except ....... (obviously)

Good luck soldier

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:44 pm

The only way to RGB-mod an (NTSC) NES is to put in a RP2C03 PPU (found on Nintendo Playchoice 10 arcade-boards, in some Nintendo VS arcade games and the Famicom Titler); very difficult to do and the colors won't be correct for all games as the palette is slightly different. Besides, the NES wasn't supposed to be RGB and the games' graphics are optimized for composite output.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:23 pm

Ok, good to know, Ceph. So a good CRT TV that supports SCART input is the best choice for me? Or is RGB better for certain systems? Not sure about those two differences. But no other things needed except to mod some systems and get the right cables eh? Thanks for the help

ReKleSS · Post by **ReKleSS** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:09 pm

SCART contains lines for RGB and composite. If you're using a scart cable, chances are it's using the rgb lines (though my psx doesn't...)

Some TVs will also accept s-video over scart, though it isn't part of the spec and it's fairly pointless anyway.

fl0w · Post by **fl0w** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:13 am

ReKleSS wrote:If you're using a scart cable, chances are it's using the rgb lines (though my psx doesn't...)

All current-gen PAL consoles (dc, gc, ps2, xbox) are sold with a scart cable that only uses the composite signal. You have to buy an extra RGB cable. Bastards!

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:26 am

All the TVs that support SCART that I've found are either PAL, an HDTV tv, or very small (14"). Does anybody know of any good 20+" CRTs that work for NTSC?

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:45 am

You could buy an actual arcade monitor, and just stick it in a homemade wooden enclosure. You should be able to find them in sizes 19"-30" pretty easily, and other sizes with a bit more difficulty.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:15 am

Is it possible to do SCART with an arcade monitor? I thought they only do RGB? Also I would preferably like to also be able to watch TV on this CRT.

stoneroses · Post by **stoneroses** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:57 am

Hope you don't mind a lot of information as I must weigh in. I recently was in your shoes when my 32 in Trinitron of 13 years died on me recently. The best connection was S-Video and was nice in its time. It was starting to show its age and I thought hard about the replacement. As I play a lot of older stuff as well (Saturn, DC, N64, SNES, NES, PS1, Genesis and the yearly few hours with some old Atari systems). So I needed something that made the best at showing each in its highest visual quality. But I still needed something "future proof" if you would. My solution was to go with a Hi-Scan WEGA 27" 4:3. Let me tell you, after about a month so far, it is like playing the games for the first time all over again.

The visual jump in moving to Progressive scan using component cables is incredible on games that support it. Even regular games using S-Video and Composet are equally impressive. Some Sonys have the Digital Reality Creation engine that takes, regular definition and outputs it at near HD quality. Sure, you are still bound to the source material, but it makes most everything that much better. For instance, playing a Saturn using only Composet feels very arcade like. Having everyingthing displayed this way through the TV makes anything look better than any Standard TV would. I would look for a similar feature in whatever setup you go with.

I play a lot of arcade-based fare and the results are fantastic. Vector games such as Tempest look like you were playing them in the arcade. Also, you are covered as things go HD on the 360 and PS3. I have a widescreen set as my main one and I feel the 4:3 as a "gaming set" is better. Without having to strech 99.9% of my games or side-box them is the right call. But you can play letterbox or Zoomed (displaying the center 4:3 image) with HD games in their native resolution sweetens the deal further. Just my 2 cents.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:57 am

CFO wrote:All the TVs that support SCART that I've found are either PAL, an HDTV tv, or very small (14"). Does anybody know of any good 20+" CRTs that work for NTSC?

When I went out to puchase a new TV 6 months ago I brought my RGB-Scart modded Japanese PC Engine to the store and tested it with ALL 50hz CRTs they had (100Hz TVs are very bad for (classic) gaming, do not buy one of those!). I discovered that some TVs have an inter-digital filter that make low res game graphics look like badly digitized (you couldn't see every single pixel). I got the best results from JVC TVs, which also happen to have very reasonable prices. Out of the TVs available I chose a 50hz 4/3 29" PAL JVC CRT TV with a flat screen. It is fully compatible to NTSC (Not just PAL 60 but real composite NTSC and even NTSC S-VHS). Very sharp and clear picture. Fantastic TV for all gaming purposes.

One sidenote: Testing those TVs (Sony, Samsung, JVC etc.) I discoverd that ALL of them cut off a few lines at the top and the bottom of the screen when in NTSC mode; however I could rectify this problem for my JVC by changing the line-space using the Service Menu which can be accessed by pressing "i" and "mute". Pressing the green button while in the service menu brings up the geometry menu.

Making changes to the following does the trick:

VSIZ
VPOS
HSIZ
HPOS

WARNING: before changing ANYTHING using the service menu you have to write down all values (they are different for every single TV even of the same type). These values can not be reset to factory defaults automatically and if you screw up you can seriously distort your TV's geometry which means you'll have to bring it to a repair-shop to fix it if you didn't take notes of the standard values so you can do it yourself.

D · Post by D » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:59 am

JVC! ok A very useful piece you wrote there, thank you

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:39 pm

Thank you for all the helpful and informative replies guys.

Ceph, is this close to the TV you got? http://www.samstores.com/details.asp?ProdID=1292

But, I am still a bit unsure of what the best option of output is for me using NTSC systems and an NTSC TV? If it would not be too much trouble could someone please tell me what the best output option for 2D games is for each system that I list? any help is appreciated.

NES -
SNES -
JP Mega Drive -
Saturn -
N64 -
Duo-RX -
Dreamcast - (VGA for most shmups, no?)
Neo-geo AES -
PS1 -
PS2 -

Hope this is not too much trouble, thanks again

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:53 pm

NES - composite
SNES - RGB
JP Mega Drive - RGB
Saturn - RGB
N64 - S-Video (needs mod for RGB)
Duo-RX - composite (needs mod for RGB)
Dreamcast - RGB or VGA
Neo-geo AES - RGB (note that above serial no. 86000 the RGB quality gets progressively worse)
PS1 - RGB
PS2 - RGB (for 2D) or VGA or YUV/component (for 3D)

You may also want to look at professional video monitors (such as those used for editing). Sony PVM and KX series is good, Barco or NEC also make monitors like that. A lot of film production companies have upgraded to HDTV now and are getting rid of their old equipment. This week I was actually able to get a 27" Barco monitor from a film production company for 100 Euros. It's great, since you can also stand it vertically with much less risk than with a TV. If you use a videorecorder as a tuner you can also watch TV on a monitor like that.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:10 pm

Hey thanks a lot, CIT. But by RGB do you mean SCART? I cannot find RGB cables for those systems online that will fit into the RGB type input connections found on such monitors as the Sony PVM series. Excuse me if I'm missing something here.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:51 pm

RGB is a color standard, SCART is just the name for a type of plug and socket than can be used for transmitting RGB, among other things. There's other plugs for RGB as well. Sony PVMs should all have SCART plugs though. At least they do here in Europe.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:23 am

I can only seem to find Sony PVMs with component hookup, will this work? I have looked at a bunch on ebay but have not seen one yet with an SCART slot. If you know where to find one with an SCART connection that would be awesome if you pointed me in it's direction.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:40 am

Alright I also found SCART to Component converters, I guess one of those would be alright even if they are a bit pricey ($115). Would I lose any quality using one of these?

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:43 pm

D wrote:JVC! ok A very useful piece you wrote there, thank you

You are welcome

CFO wrote:Alright I also found SCART to Component converters, I guess one of those would be alright even if they are a bit pricey ($115). Would I lose any quality using one of these?

Component??? Why would you need that? To answer your question,
when converting Scart to Component, there should be no noticable loss of quality.

Where do you live? As has been explained before, all European TVs feature Scart plugs. So if you have RGB-Scart cables for your game consoles you can connect them directly to your TV and will get the best possible picture. Component is used in the United States and is slightly inferior to Scart (which uses a separate sync channel). Component plugs consist of three RCA plugs; colored red, green and blue.

This is what Scart looks like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scart

If you are living in the US and want the best picture-quality you'd ineed have to buy European RGB Scart cables for each of your consoles and one Component converter to connect to your TV.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:42 am

Yes, I live in North America so I will need a converter I suppose.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:57 pm

CFO wrote:Yes, I live in North America so I will need a converter I suppose.

Well, in that case please disregard what I said about TVs, what you need a 60hz CRT TV with componet plugs. And then you'll need something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SCART-RGB-to-Compon ... 0013947454

If you search ebay you'll also find the necessary scart cables for each sonsole.

Since you'll have to buy the cables from European sellers it's going to be expensive, but RGB really is the best you can get.

oxtsu · Post by **oxtsu** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:08 am

CFO wrote:I can only seem to find Sony PVMs with component hookup, will this work? I have looked at a bunch on ebay but have not seen one yet with an SCART slot. If you know where to find one with an SCART connection that would be awesome if you pointed me in it's direction. :?:

CFO wrote:Yes, I live in North America so I will need a converter I suppose.

No SCART in NA. The RGB input on Sony PVM monitors use a DB-25 connector. You'll need to custom make the cables yourself. Or ask Matt.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:28 am

Ceph wrote:
D wrote:JVC! ok A very useful piece you wrote there, thank you
You are welcome

CFO wrote:Alright I also found SCART to Component converters, I guess one of those would be alright even if they are a bit pricey ($115). Would I lose any quality using one of these?
Component??? Why would you need that? To answer your question,
when converting Scart to Component, there should be no noticable loss of quality.

Scart can do true RGB, component is not the same as RGB.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:22 am

CFO wrote:Is it possible to do SCART with an arcade monitor? I thought they only do RGB? Also I would preferably like to also be able to watch TV on this CRT.

http://www.mameworld.net/pc2jamma/

RGB/SCART -> Arcade monitors is a walk in the park. I play all my consoles like this, and there simply is no better way to see games in action.

Once you play this way, you can never go back to TV again.

CFO · Post by **CFO** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:40 am

Ceph wrote:
CFO wrote:Yes, I live in North America so I will need a converter I suppose.
Well, in that case please disregard what I said about TVs, what you need a 60hz CRT TV with componet plugs. And then you'll need something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SCART-RGB-to-Compon ... 0013947454

If you search ebay you'll also find the necessary scart cables for each sonsole.

Since you'll have to buy the cables from European sellers it's going to be expensive, but RGB really is the best you can get.

I emailed that seller, he said that converter will not output any audio when using it so that's not really an option.

elvis I couldn't find anything on that site about just using the monitor, do you always have to hook up the system to JAMMA and use the arcade controls?

oxtsu that seems like a great option, I will have to shoot Matt a PM.

Thanks again for all the useful replies, I had a feeling this prodedure would not come too simply.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:50 am

You can easily bypass the audio on a SCART-Component transcoder. You just need a breakout convertor.

NX-SCT-031

http://www.nexxia.co.uk/Hi-Fi&TVaccesso ... aptors.htm

Just plug the console scart lead into the breakout adaptor, breakout adaptor into transcoder.. Take the video from the transoder and the audio from the breakout convertor. Job Done.

I do it.. results are great, but not RGB standard. Scanlines are not nearly as defined and the crispness loses its edge. However, I did buy the cheapest component TV I could find.

Why isn't there anyone out there who can just suggest an arcade monitor model number and provide a lead with instructions (for a fee). But then you still need an audio breakout and a box to put the thing in.

viletim · Post by **viletim** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:26 pm

CFO,
It seems that most of the SCART > Component converters floating around the market have no audio connections - you have to drill a couple of holes and add them yourself.

If you are good a building things then you might want to take a look at my SCART to Arcade Monitor Adaptor design. I'm confident that it'll work on all arcade monitors (save a few esoteric nintendo ones).

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:29 am

Can you supply the adaptors in bulk?

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:29 am

viletim wrote:If you are good a building things then you might want to take a look at my SCART to Arcade Monitor Adaptor design. I'm confident that it'll work on all arcade monitors (save a few esoteric nintendo ones).

That's a pretty complex solution to a simple problem.

You wouldn't happen to be an engineer by trade, would you?

viletim · Post by **viletim** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:45 am

That's a pretty complex solution to a simple problem.

You wouldn't happen to be an engineer by trade, would you?

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that there's a simpler way to connect a SCART device to an arcade monitor. I know that some (more modern?) arcade monitors have will accept a small input signal (~1 volt) but many older/simpler models will not have enough range on the contrast controls. The circuit is about as simple as is possible while sticking with commonly available parts.

And no, not quite and engineer, just a hobbiest :)

Can you supply the adaptors in bulk?

Were you talking to me? If so then no, I don't have anything to supply (except maybe information)....