XRGB-3

[Sabishii Hito]

one of them is the low resolution setting

in which submenu is this setting to be found ? If you could post the menu structure (e.g. 7.10 = 7th submenu, 10th option) - would be nice!

I think the general purpose of this option is a different one. I guess it was implemented to drive older, japanese PC monitors which only support sub-31khz frequencies. Nevertheless the option's interesting, so I'd like to give it a try and compare the results to those of an Emotia or UVC.

It should be 7.10.

[Konsolkongen]

Kewl. So with two XRGB-3's you could do that Dreamcast Mars Matrix scanline thing Fudoh showed us earlier? A friend of mine is thinking of buying a XRGB-3 and if he does he will most likely have it sent to me for rewirering of the RGBs input to accept EU cables. If he buys one i will definitely check that out and post some screens

[akumajo]

well, i still thinks that we need a proper translation of manual and firmware change logs and why not some FAQs (wiki ?) with detailled settings (cable used, console region , etc)
of course, Fudoh website is a good start for XRGB beginner
also, hosting mirror of old and new firmwares could help in future

just an idea...

[Fudoh]

also, hosting mirror of old and new firmwares could help in future

Micomsoft does that themselves and I doubt that they'll stop anytime soon.

[cyrano]

Hi everyone,

I bought a XRGB3 a while ago, but only had the time to unpack it and play with it recently. My initial impressions are a bit disappointing, so I guess I must keep tinkering with it until I figure out which settings work for me. I am currently plugging a Wii on it (i know i should probably be plugging older consoles first, but I'll need to stop being lazy and get the right cables out of my boxes first), and whichever mode I choose for it doesn't look very clean. I am not an expert on the subject, so if I say anything dumb, please correct me..

My screen is an old Dell 24 Ultrasharp (2405 FPW I believe). Does a decent job at scaling, horrible job at handling interlaced signal (esp. low res 2d images).

First problem: DVI output stopped working after one day. It worked the first day I tried it (1900x1200), then the next day, high resolutions stopped working (I could still output at 1024x768, but for instance 1920x1200 would make my screen go into sleep mode, and ask me to move the mouse or some bs like that). Shortly after, the same day, it stopped outputting DVI altogether. Tried different cables, no luck: the screen goes straight into sleep mode (not quite the same as 'no input', but similarly frustrating). At that point I was not playing with settings or even wiring at all, so I doubt I could have messed something up, but who knows.. The worst I could have done is press a button on the front end of the XRGB by mistake. I am almost certain I didnt touch the remote.
Tried flashing firmware to latest version, no luck either. It just seems the port busted itself in one day. I got my XRGB from solaris, I doubt there is warranty, though I am not sure.
I therefore started playing with VGA outputs, which works fine.

Second problem: I am sure this is a dumb question, but somehow the purported output resolution and the one the screen gets (according to the screen) are not the same. If the XRGB outputs at 1920x1200, the screen says it gets a signal at 1600x1200. Though the screen is wide, if I put the settings of the XRGB to wide angle, I get black bars on top and below. If I put the setting to 4/3, no bars, but the image is clearly stretched.

Third problem: image doesn't look that good. On the main menu of the Wii, everything seems to 'flicker' constantly. This is true in B0 mode, but especially in B1. I understand the image is supposed to be better in B1, but for me it's cleary much worse.

Anyway, if anyone has any clues about what my problem is (esp. with regards to the DVI output), I'd welcome them. I might be willing to sell the XRGB for pretty cheap, since it doesn't quite correspond to what I expected..
(again, forgive my ignorance, but I was vaguely hoping that the XRGB would make SD console outputs on an HD screen screen look like the image from a good and large CRT).

[Fudoh]

Shortly after, the same day, it stopped outputting DVI altogether.

The DVI output can by tricky. The timings are way off anything standard and I wouldn't jump to conclusions about a defective output before testing it on another screen. I'd also try another PC to upgrade the firmware. Other users had problems updating the XRGB using Vista, so the problem might be with the OS.

I got my XRGB from solaris, I doubt there is warranty, though I am not sure.

I don't see why not...

Third problem: image doesn't look that good. On the main menu of the Wii, everything seems to 'flicker' constantly. This is true in B0 mode, but especially in B1. I understand the image is supposed to be better in B1, but for me it's cleary much worse.

There is no processing in B1 mode when the Wii's set to 480p output. Input and output are the same, the signal's just transcoded from component to VGA.

again, forgive my ignorance, but I was vaguely hoping that the XRGB would make SD console outputs on an HD screen screen look like the image from a good and large CRT)

It does The Wii (along with the N64) is just the worst system you could start off testing with.

[RGB32E]

Kewl. So with two XRGB-3's you could do that Dreamcast Mars Matrix scanline thing Fudoh showed us earlier? A friend of mine is thinking of buying a XRGB-3 and if he does he will most likely have it sent to me for rewirering of the RGBs input to accept EU cables. If he buys one i will definitely check that out and post some screens

I tried out the B0 320x224 mode yesterday! While the output works ok... I couldn't get a full screen image on my PVM-2030. The width of the image was about 2/3rds the width of the screen. I fiddled with the screen settings on the XRGB-3, but couldn't get the image size or area correct (clipped the images up to about 32 pixels on the right hand side). Also, the DOT_BY_DOT setting needs to be turned ON when in this mode, or you get some nasty scaling at that resolution, as the output image skips rows of pixels! I'd imagine that the Extron units would do a better job of creating a 240p RGB than the XRGB-3. On top of that, the Extron units can be had for much less money than another XRGB-3! It would be fun to perform the experiment using two XRGB-3 units though!

[RGB32E]

Hi everyone,

I bought a XRGB3 a while ago, but only had the time to unpack it and play with it recently. My initial impressions are a bit disappointing, so I guess I must keep tinkering with it until I figure out which settings work for me. I am currently plugging a Wii on it (i know i should probably be plugging older consoles first, but I'll need to stop being lazy and get the right cables out of my boxes first), and whichever mode I choose for it doesn't look very clean. I am not an expert on the subject, so if I say anything dumb, please correct me..

My screen is an old Dell 24 Ultrasharp (2405 FPW I believe). Does a decent job at scaling, horrible job at handling interlaced signal (esp. low res 2d images).

First problem: DVI output stopped working after one day. It worked the first day I tried it (1900x1200), then the next day, high resolutions stopped working (I could still output at 1024x768, but for instance 1920x1200 would make my screen go into sleep mode, and ask me to move the mouse or some bs like that). Shortly after, the same day, it stopped outputting DVI altogether. Tried different cables, no luck: the screen goes straight into sleep mode (not quite the same as 'no input', but similarly frustrating). At that point I was not playing with settings or even wiring at all, so I doubt I could have messed something up, but who knows.. The worst I could have done is press a button on the front end of the XRGB by mistake. I am almost certain I didnt touch the remote.
Tried flashing firmware to latest version, no luck either. It just seems the port busted itself in one day. I got my XRGB from solaris, I doubt there is warranty, though I am not sure.
I therefore started playing with VGA outputs, which works fine.

Second problem: I am sure this is a dumb question, but somehow the purported output resolution and the one the screen gets (according to the screen) are not the same. If the XRGB outputs at 1920x1200, the screen says it gets a signal at 1600x1200. Though the screen is wide, if I put the settings of the XRGB to wide angle, I get black bars on top and below. If I put the setting to 4/3, no bars, but the image is clearly stretched.

Third problem: image doesn't look that good. On the main menu of the Wii, everything seems to 'flicker' constantly. This is true in B0 mode, but especially in B1. I understand the image is supposed to be better in B1, but for me it's cleary much worse.

Anyway, if anyone has any clues about what my problem is (esp. with regards to the DVI output), I'd welcome them. I might be willing to sell the XRGB for pretty cheap, since it doesn't quite correspond to what I expected..
(again, forgive my ignorance, but I was vaguely hoping that the XRGB would make SD console outputs on an HD screen screen look like the image from a good and large CRT).

I'd first restore the factory settings before trying anything else with the XRGB-3 (Power off -> hold Menu and OK buttons -> press the power button, then release Menu and OK buttons).

1.) After resetting your XRGB, the DVI functionality might be restored. Unfortunately, I don't use DVI output since my XBR8 won't accept 1920x1080 (DVI->HDMI), but works fine with other resolutions using a digital connection. I ended up sing the analog output at 1920x1080, and the signal looks very good for analog (plus my TV's analog PC input doesn't suck ). You should at least try connecting the XRGB-3 via analog - for troubleshooting.

2.) Does your monitor have a 1:1 mode (no pixel resize)? If the 1:1 is available, 1920x1080 might be a suitable alternative. While there would be a small letter box (60px), it might be more compatible with your display (assuming you're running the latest 2.12 firmware).

3.) The problem with the XRGB-3 is that you really need to know how to correctly configure the unit, and use quality cables. For the Wii, I use the Official Nintendo D-Terminal cable. Yesterday I tweaked around with the settings when using the Wii and got a very good picture! There are too many settings on the XRGB-3 that will degrade picture quality. On of the biggest offenders is the LPF. Turn LPF OFF, and only use this setting when needed, as it softens the picture.

Your post seems to indicate that in addition to an updated translation and description/notes of settings (since new settings exist), that the appropriate HW guide and complete settings for the XRGB-3 might be helpful. That way, a given person doesn't have to experiment to get optimal output from the XRGB, just get the right cabling, enter the correct settings and you're done!

[RGB32E]

I found a PDF on Micomsoft's site describing several features since the 2.10 firmware, one of them is the low resolution setting (低解像度設定). If you set this to "On" then the output resolutions lower than 640x480 become selectable, so essentially you can force 480i games to ouput in 240p. I'm using a rather complicated setup to test this (XRGB-3 analog RGB output to 15-pin RGB input on an XSelect-D4, which is outputting via D-Terminal/Component cable to an SD Sony Wega TV). I have the Darkstalkers Collection on PS2 running right nowwhich is originally a 224p arcade game but of course the port is 480i/480p. Honestly it looks pretty ugly compared to games that already output at 240p but possibly some tweaking is needed.

Did you try turning on the DOT_BY_DOT setting and turning off LPF?

[Konsolkongen]

It would be fun to perform the experiment using two XRGB-3 units though!

My friend chose to buy a XRGB2 instead. Oh well...

[Konsolkongen]

About my XRGB3 and Optoma problems. Would it help if i added a LM1881 sync chip to the vertical and horizontal sync pins from the VGA out of the XRGB?

[RGB32E]

About my XRGB3 and Optoma problems. Would it help if i added a LM1881 sync chip to the vertical and horizontal sync pins from the VGA out of the XRGB?

Problem with XRGB in B1 mode not displaying through Optoma? Have you tried both V Sync settings (on/off) on the XRGB-3? The LM1881 takes composite video or sync as input, and outputs composite sync and vertical sync.

[Konsolkongen]

Yes i have tried all combinations of these options. Also tried with the FULLHD setting as Low and High. Downgraded to firmwares 2.07 and 2.05 but that didn't help either. I assume that the problem lies with the XRGB somehow as my Dreamcast works fine with VGA and VGA to BNC cables.

[RGB32E]

Yes i have tried all combinations of these options. Also tried with the FULLHD setting as Low and High. Downgraded to firmwares 2.07 and 2.05 but that didn't help either. I assume that the problem lies with the XRGB somehow as my Dreamcast works fine with VGA and VGA to BNC cables.

Hmm... the next thing I'd try is routing the output from the XRGB-3 through an Extron RGB interface (newer model the better) like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTRON-RGB-192V-Int ... 0425134617

The RGB 19x models have a DB-15 input, loop through output, and the processed output (on BNC connectors). Over the years I have acquired a variety of Extron RGB interfaces, but the only one I own with a DB-15 (VGA) connector input is the RGB 190 (virtually identical units). I'm sure you could get a 19x cheaper than the one I linked if you shop around.


The DDSP (toggled on the dipswitch bank) is Extron's sync reprocessing functionality.

[Konsolkongen]

Sounds interesting i might look into that. No delay/av sync problems?

[RGB32E]

Sounds interesting i might look into that. No delay/av sync problems?

There should not be any processing delay with any Extron RGB interface. I've never noticed any change, but that's just a subjective observation and I have not tested any of them. However, I once connected my SNES to the 190 and use the loop through output to my kramer FC-14 (to HDTV), and the processed output (on BNCs) to my PVM-2030. There was a slight lag on my HDTV. So, I'm fairly confident that any possible delay caused by using a 19x interface would be in the ns range (1 millisecond = 1,000,000 nanoseconds).

[ikaruga007]

Been reading this thread with great interest for a while now... thanks guys for some very informative posts.

I've decided I'm gonna take the plunge and somehow get hold of either an XRGB-2 PLUS or XRGB-3. However, I'm a bit hesitant to fork out what Solaris are asking.

I'm planning on using it exclusively for de-interlacing of some vintage systems like SNES and Saturn hooked up to a Pioneer 506XDE plasma with VGA cable. I'm a big fan of fake scanlines so I think I'll probably only use an XRGB-3 in B1 mode. In that case, am I correct in assuming I could just as well get a XRGB-2 PLUS? I'm aware the the 3 gives me more control over the transparency of the scanlines but are there any other differences that I should be aware of?

If anyone can help me obtain a unit, I would be very grateful (2+ or 3). Otherwise, I'm sure I'll crack and get one at Solaris anyway I have too many great vintage games that I refuse to play since they simply don't look right.

Oh, and I live in Sweden by the way.

Thanks,
Peter

[Fudoh]

In plain theory the 2plus would be fine for your needs. The 25% Scanline setting is good enough. The problem is that I had picture stability problems with all the 2plus units I had (on all displays I owned). I was still on a VGA CRT (29") when I initially got the 2plus and it was fine, but on all digital displays I had severe stability problems with the vertical sync (see video linked below).

The following is from a XRGB-3, but it shows the problems. On the XRGB-3 it only shows with very few combinations (sync stripper), but on XRGB-2plus units it was visible on all the sources. -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYXkhi5yEpo

[Artemio]

I have never experienced such problems with the XRGB-2 though, but never have had a XRGB-2 plus. I uploaded a video on that same account showing the XRGB-2 with the same CPS-2 board:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru9MJk03OH4

The problem with getting an XRGB-2 of course is that you only have one scanline setting (dark scanlines).

[Konsolkongen]

The problem with getting an XRGB-2 of course is that you only have one scanline setting (dark scanlines).

What XRGB3 level is it comparable to?

[ikaruga007]

Thanks Fudoh.

I've seen some images of distorted OSD on the XRGB-2 PLUS. Is that the result of the sync problems? Apparently, this problem apparently isn't evident in the 2 or 3. However, I'm afraid that completely black scanlines could be a bit too much for my taste so I think I'll probably try to get an XRGB-3.

It's going to be really interesting to see how my plasma handles upscaling 640x480 to its native 1280x768. It seems to a decent job with my Dreamcast via VGA and when testing a computer at 800x600 (although I realize I won't get that quality from my SNES, Saturn etc).

[cyrano]

Thanks a lot for your help, guys, you are all really helpful!

The DVI output can by tricky. The timings are way off anything standard and I wouldn't jump to conclusions about a defective output before testing it on another screen. I'd also try another PC to upgrade the firmware. Other users had problems updating the XRGB using Vista, so the problem might be with the OS.

I could try that, but the update didn't seem to give me any error message (the hash check seemed to be valid, and if i check the firmware, i do get 2.12, plus the fancy real HD option in the menu now..). I understand the DVI output might be a bit finnicky, but is it not odd it worked in all resolutions, then on some, then on none? I tried on a different screen (another dell, though), still no luck. Going straight into sleep mode. So frustrating! I'll try with a TV / another screen some time soon. Would downgrading to another firmware perhaps help?

Another odd thing is that if i plug my xbox 360 into the pc dvi in, and the plug the VGa to my screen, and use the B1 passthrough(?) mode, everything is messed up. Green lines appearing over the screen, and there are clear handshakes problems between the 360 and the XRGB (image blinks in black). In this case I suspect its the cable xbox>xrgb (thoughit works fine on xbox>screen), but i am growing a bit suspicious..

I got my XRGB from solaris, I doubt there is warranty, though I am not sure.

I don't see why not...

Ah, I had a very good experience with them actually, ti's just that for some reason I believed it's not super easy to return imported stuff . Is it not the case that XRGB doesn't really want their unit sold out of Japan? (if not, why are they so hard to find, even on import sites like play-asia or ncsx?)

There is no processing in B1 mode when the Wii's set to 480p output. Input and output are the same, the signal's just transcoded from component to VGA.

Hm, really? the resolution does not seem the same. I have no idea what the 525p which appears on the xrgb channel select overlay truly means, but whichever resolution/settings I choose on the XRGB (wide/not wide, 1900x1200,1900x1080), I always get some kind of black bars, somewhere (using either 1/1 or keep scale options on the monitor), while straight wii>monitor gets a nearly full screen. I am a bit puzzled. As for the quality, it does seem similar. I still think it's a bit cleaner straight in component than through the XRGB VGA, but I am very possibly insane at this point.

What's the consensus for getting the best image on say, the wii? B0? B1? If it's B1, why not just plug it straight on the screen? Should I upscale through the XRGB or through the screen (depends on the screen scaler, I suppose)?

It does The Wii (along with the N64) is just the worst system you could start off testing with.

Yea, I realize.. I;ll try on a PS2 and a snes soon. It's just that I feel it should at least be better than without anything, and right now, I feel it's always worse with the scaler...

1.) After resetting your XRGB, the DVI functionality might be restored. Unfortunately, I don't use DVI output since my XBR8 won't accept 1920x1080 (DVI->HDMI), but works fine with other resolutions using a digital connection. I ended up sing the analog output at 1920x1080, and the signal looks very good for analog (plus my TV's analog PC input doesn't suck ). You should at least try connecting the XRGB-3 via analog - for troubleshooting.

Didn't seem to work. . is there a way to check reset occured? I didn't get any blinking.

2.) Does your monitor have a 1:1 mode (no pixel resize)? If the 1:1 is available, 1920x1080 might be a suitable alternative. While there would be a small letter box (60px), it might be more compatible with your display (assuming you're running the latest 2.12 firmware).

Yea, it does. I did that and it's pretty decent. As I said above, I still get black bars that I do not get through straight component to the monitor. Is there a deep reason why?

3.) The problem with the XRGB-3 is that you really need to know how to correctly configure the unit, and use quality cables. For the Wii, I use the Official Nintendo D-Terminal cable. Yesterday I tweaked around with the settings when using the Wii and got a very good picture! There are too many settings on the XRGB-3 that will degrade picture quality. On of the biggest offenders is the LPF. Turn LPF OFF, and only use this setting when needed, as it softens the picture.

Thanks! I'll try. Any other tips for the wii in particular?

Your post seems to indicate that in addition to an updated translation and description/notes of settings (since new settings exist), that the appropriate HW guide and complete settings for the XRGB-3 might be helpful. That way, a given person doesn't have to experiment to get optimal output from the XRGB, just get the right cabling, enter the correct settings and you're done!

would be so awesome !

Sorry for all the questions. I have a last one which has been haunting me for a while!
If I use B0 mode, and look at text in particular, there are these weird line artefacts (instead of pixel artefacts, I guess), where it seem like every line is not properly 'matched' to the one just after. It looks a bit like those PSP interlacing problems shot (http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/21/sony ... -problems/)
except that it doesn't require any movement. Any text looks like that. Is it because of the linedoubling of the B0 mode?

[Fudoh]

What XRGB3 level is it comparable to?

The XRGB-2 (non plus) has only full scanlines (equals 0 on the XRGB-3).

[em0ti0n]

The XRGB-2 (non plus) has only full scanlines (equals 0 on the XRGB-3).

It has to make scanlines pretty unusable on XRGB2, I never step down below 175 on XRGB3 because it makes pictures too dark.

[Fudoh]

It looks a bit like those PSP interlacing problems shot, except that it doesn't require any movement.

Try adjusting the NTSC Dot Clock (5th Submenu).

[em0ti0n]

Didn't seem to work. . is there a way to check reset occured? I didn't get any blinking

Reset procedure in detail:

1. XRGB3 is turned off
2. press and hold Power,MENU,OK together
3. Power LED will start blinking for a few seconds
4. once Power LED will stop blinking release pressed buttons
5. XRGB3 will stay turned off
6. turn XRGB3 on

After successful reset your XRGB3 will start in B0 mode and 1024x768 resolution.

[Konsolkongen]

The XRGB-2 (non plus) has only full scanlines (equals 0 on the XRGB-3).

It has to make scanlines pretty unusable on XRGB2, I never step down below 175 on XRGB3 because it makes pictures too dark.

I agree, playing with scanlines so dark would give me a headache. There is no way that soldering random stuff together on the PCB might make the scanlines brighter?

[akumajo]

hello all

i started to compile informations about XRGB-3, here's my first public version.

anyone is welcome to help me finishing/fixing this document.

http://rapidshare.com/files/333285134/X ... 4.pdf.html

[Konsolkongen]

I think it looks very promising. A wiki would be best IMO as it took 3-4 attempts to download from rapidshare. You should include that switching the V-Sync option to ON will eliminate the stuttering you will otherwise get if you leave if OFF. Probably one of the most important settings IMO, i wouldn't play without it
A full manual and firmware description translation would be very nice also.

Looking forward to seeing how it eventually turns out when finished. So far it looks good and was very easy to understand.

[akumajo]

added a mirror here : http://dl.free.fr/pzTsjwylv

and thx for your report