The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Moniker]

Doujins that don't have a button for full auto. I'd use an arcade stick with rapid fire, but since few doujin games have TATE, or play nice with my stick, and I'd have to flip my monitor and replug my laptop everytime I wanted to play. Meh.

I've tried to find a keyboard solution, but it seems things are hardwired to prevent it.

[Obscura]

Well, I just found the dumbest way of using a bomb ever.

"Argh, there goes my final life. *takes hand off keyboard* What? The game is still going? Oh crap, I've still got a life... oh shit, bomb!"

That's happened twice to me tonight.

[Obscura]

Fucking god, this just feels so totally hopeless.

Every fucking game, I reach a point (usually the point where my better runs reach stage 4, and most end in stage 3) where I just plateau and can't improve any with more practice. EVERY FUCKING GAME. Add to that the number of credits that get force-aborted early because of some stupid fuck up that costs me everything (lol, dying with three hypers in tow vs. DOJ stage 2 midboss), and I can't make any fucking progress at all.

Wish I had any clue what the fuck I'm doing wrong.

[Randorama]

Fucking god, this just feels so totally hopeless.

Every fucking game, I reach a point (usually the point where my better runs reach stage 4, and most end in stage 3) where I just plateau and can't improve any with more practice. EVERY FUCKING GAME.

You need to understand how the game works and what you're supposed to do, and well, to go beyond the bottleneck phase. Most modern games are designed to make you plateau at stage 3-4.

It is very simple.

If you don't sit down, make the effort to understand the engine and devise solid strategies, then [Game X] will be too hard to be played beyond a given stage, by sheer dodging ability.

I would claim that 75% of shmups in the last 25 years or so are designed like this, since reaching stage 4-5 will usually take *10-15 minutes*, an acceptable gaming time for the average cost of a credit.

Say, if you didn't understand how to use the force pod in R-type, there was simply no way whatsoever that you could go beyond Stage 5.

Add to that the number of credits that get force-aborted early because of some stupid fuck up that costs me everything (lol, dying with three hypers in tow vs. DOJ stage 2 midboss), and I can't make any fucking progress at all.

Wish I had any clue what the fuck I'm doing wrong.

You're DTP-ing, i.e. playing without a plan and whingeing on the forum.

Your passage from whiny, perennial newbie player to successful 1-CC holder passes through your ability to understand how the programmers want you to handle their games.

I understand you're new to the genre, so this is the best time to make this step from passive to active player, and pass from the whining group to the winning group.

[Gus]

I'm pretty sure at this point Obscura is just an unfunny DTP imitator. Don't take the bait.

[NzzpNzzp]

Say, if you didn't understand how to use the force pod in R-type, there was simply no way whatsoever that you could go beyond Stage 5.

Is there ever a reason to detach your force in R-type stage 5? I never do.

[Eaglet]

lol Obscura is DTP.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I love coming back to a game you haven't played in a while and suddenly getting hit like four times in a section you normally breeze through. lolfail

[Randorama]

I'm pretty sure at this point Obscura is just an unfunny DTP imitator. Don't take the bait.

No man is left behind! Maybe not even DTP. Maybe.

[Obscura]

I understand you're new to the genre, so this is the best time to make this step from passive to active player, and pass from the whining group to the winning group.

How does "having a plan" and "being an active player" help against random spam patterns (such as stage 2 midboss pink bullets) or patterns where boss movements practically turn it into a random spam pattern (such as stage 2 boss's "slow spirals"? And, yes, I read OVB's suggestion, and I can't get it to work; even at the far edge, both arms are still usually on screen, and then I just have one less direction to dodge).

Also, what am I supposed to do when a run goes off the rails? If I die to stage-2 midboss while towing a bunch of hypers, it's not like it's an isolated thing; I was planning on using those hypers in the section with the buildings on each side (since, when you're as bad as I am, it makes up about half of your score). With that one death, my plan doesn't even apply on future lives! Or, if I die in stage 3 with a hyper in tow instead of having it available in a spot I plan to hyper. Bye bye plan, bye bye credit.

[CptRansom]

Also, what am I supposed to do when a run goes off the rails? If I die to stage-2 midboss while towing a bunch of hypers, it's not like it's an isolated thing; I was planning on using those hypers in the section with the buildings on each side (since, when you're as bad as I am, it makes up about half of your score). With that one death, my plan doesn't even apply on future lives! Or, if I die in stage 3 with a hyper in tow instead of having it available in a spot I plan to hyper. Bye bye plan, bye bye credit.

This is an easy problem to fix. Your attitude needs adjusting. Just because your "plan" falls apart does NOT mean your credit is wasted. If your intended plan goes off the rails, then it's time to start having fun! Try out all those goofy ways to dodge future patterns that you wouldn't actually do in your planned runs. Experiment. Learn new things. Don't ever let that time be wasted.

Also, if you're having troubles with the stage 2 boss, why are you doing full runs? Why aren't you practicing with save states? If you're one of those "OMG SAVE STATES ARE THE DEVIL" types, then that's fine and I really don't want to argue about it because it's like talking to a brick wall. If you're NOT one of those types, then you need to start using save states. At the VERY least, create one for the beginning of each stage, each midboss, and each stage boss. Stop wasting your time with full runs when you're obviously not ready for them; or just do one or two full runs at the end of your play session for funsies. Whatever.

I have no clue what game you're playing because I don't give a shit and it doesn't matter: what I wrote applies to any game, and it's nothing that people like Prometheus and Icarus and everyone else haven't been preaching for forever.

Just do it. Trust me, this is something I'm coming to grips with myself, and it's not easy to make that mental adjustment, but there's no time like the present to at least start trying.

[Eaglet]

FUCK

Just had a Garegga round that ended right before the last boss' cockpit was about to explode.
Killed by a destructible bullet.
Should have played it more safe...

[Deca]

How does "having a plan" and "being an active player" help against random spam patterns (such as stage 2 midboss pink bullets) or patterns where boss movements practically turn it into a random spam pattern (such as stage 2 boss's "slow spirals"? .

The problem with you guys is getting so hung up on the idea of things being random. If you always approach these enemies the same way and know how they're going to attack you the randomness is reduced significantly. I used to get killed frequently by the St2 midboss when I was starting out, now every time I get to him I point blank as he moves to the top of the screen, sit there for a moment and then drop back to the bottom just before his first attack comes out and follow his movements staying as centered as possible. You're not always going to dodge exactly the same way but there are always going to be big gaps for you to dodge through, I have a feeling you're just not used to seeing them yet.

I hate to admit it but the St2 boss still keeps me on my toes in the beginning of the fight, mostly because I have issues with hitbox awareness with those long bullets. I've improved drastically over time, I used to find that attack next to impossible without a bomb, but every once in a while I'll bump into one near the bottom of the screen.

DOJ is a mean game, the moment you stop actively playing/controlling/attacking it you will be overwhelmed and often left with no options other than a bomb. You need at least a basic plan for everything and have to be on top of the game rather than at the bottom of the screen reacting and dodging.

In the end it's always a question of attitude. At the moment you have a losing attitude, trying to pin failure on the game one way or another as opposed to accepting full responsibility and convincing yourself you can improve and progress.

logic

I'm in full agreement with everything said here. If you're not using savestates then use early st2 deaths to experiment with stupid approaches to the boss. You'll surprise yourself, moving in overly aggressive ways and approaching patterns differently than you normally would will give you a better understanding of how they actually work and how you can manipulate them. Also try to find places where it's safe to pointblank bosses for extra damage.

[Obscura]

Also, what am I supposed to do when a run goes off the rails? If I die to stage-2 midboss while towing a bunch of hypers, it's not like it's an isolated thing; I was planning on using those hypers in the section with the buildings on each side (since, when you're as bad as I am, it makes up about half of your score). With that one death, my plan doesn't even apply on future lives! Or, if I die in stage 3 with a hyper in tow instead of having it available in a spot I plan to hyper. Bye bye plan, bye bye credit.

This is an easy problem to fix. Your attitude needs adjusting. Just because your "plan" falls apart does NOT mean your credit is wasted. If your intended plan goes off the rails, then it's time to start having fun! Try out all those goofy ways to dodge future patterns that you wouldn't actually do in your planned runs. Experiment. Learn new things. Don't ever let that time be wasted.

Also, if you're having troubles with the stage 2 boss, why are you doing full runs? Why aren't you practicing with save states? If you're one of those "OMG SAVE STATES ARE THE DEVIL" types, then that's fine and I really don't want to argue about it because it's like talking to a brick wall. If you're NOT one of those types, then you need to start using save states. At the VERY least, create one for the beginning of each stage, each midboss, and each stage boss. Stop wasting your time with full runs when you're obviously not ready for them; or just do one or two full runs at the end of your play session for funsies. Whatever.

I have no clue what game you're playing because I don't give a shit and it doesn't matter: what I wrote applies to any game, and it's nothing that people like Prometheus and Icarus and everyone else haven't been preaching for forever.

Just do it. Trust me, this is something I'm coming to grips with myself, and it's not easy to make that mental adjustment, but there's no time like the present to at least start trying.

Dude, I've done tons of savestate practice on stage 2 boss.

After multiple several hour sessions against him, that attack still tends to slaughter me.

DOJ is a mean game, the moment you stop actively playing/controlling/attacking it you will be overwhelmed and often left with no options other than a bomb. You need at least a basic plan for everything and have to be on top of the game rather than at the bottom of the screen reacting and dodging.

Wait, what?

I thought in DOJ you had to let enemies live for as long as possible without emptying the GP bar in most cases in order to have enough stuff that you don't drop the chain?

At the moment you have a losing attitude, trying to pin failure on the game one way or another as opposed to accepting full responsibility

I'm not saying it's not the game's fault I suck. Naut's 2-All vid shows that pretty damn clearly.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

No missed to Area 27 Normal on JSS so I'm thinking it'll be my best run yet.

I end up with my worst Normal 1cc score yet due to all sorts of screw ups.

Only one of those deaths was legit BS too(Divine Flow laser boxes being randomly spread in a way that caused me to get walled). Yeah, I may not know how to deal with Final Judgment yet, but I don't think the attack is BS.


I'd like to get that 60+ million run already so I can just start focusing on Hard mode.

[Deca]

DOJ is a mean game, the moment you stop actively playing/controlling/attacking it you will be overwhelmed and often left with no options other than a bomb. You need at least a basic plan for everything and have to be on top of the game rather than at the bottom of the screen reacting and dodging.

Wait, what?

I thought in DOJ you had to let enemies live for as long as possible without emptying the GP bar in most cases in order to have enough stuff that you don't drop the chain?

Playing aggressively and "attacking" the game doesn't necessarily mean speedkilling. It just means playing in a proactive way rather than a reactive one. Moving around a lot and actively leading bullets and creating openings for yourself. It's hard to explain or teach, it's something you develop a feel for the more you play shooters in general. You have to understand how different aimed attacks and spreads interact, intervals at which enemies fire, how you can safely move closer to an enemy to misdirect fire more effectively with less movement, etc.

This game used to walk all over me when I first started playing it (granted that was also WL) and I found it too difficult to be enjoyable. At that point reaching st3 was an achievement and getting to the st3 boss was a pipe dream, I was very much in over my head. After coming back to it much later and taking a very different approach to playing it I found it much more fun.

Also chaining does involve a fair amount of speedkilling, it isn't just about leaving enemies alive as long as possible before killing them. You have to understand when and from what part of the screen enemies appear and take advantage of their positions to allow you to maneuver to wherever you need to be in order to deal with what's coming next. Sometimes that involves delayed bursts at popcorn to drag out a wave and sometimes it involves lasering a series of medium enemies as soon as they come on screen.

[RNGmaster]

Um, I thought the way eveyone handled the stage 2 boss was to collect a hyper from the popcorn hallway and just hyper through the entire fight. It dies in about 40 seconds. Just watch HFD's replay to get an idea of what to do.

[Obscura]

Um, I thought the way eveyone handled the stage 2 boss was to collect a hyper from the popcorn hallway and just hyper through the entire fight. It dies in about 40 seconds. Just watch HFD's replay to get an idea of what to do.

I'm pretty sure this is actually a score thing, not a survival thing. Dodging those patterns with the extra speed from a hyper is a bitch.

[CptRansom]

Dude, I've done tons of savestate practice on stage 2 boss.

After multiple several hour sessions against him, that attack still tends to slaughter me.

So bomb it or hyper when it shows up. Problem solved. Were you going for a WR or trying to top the high score table here? If the answer is no, then bomb the pattern and try to make up for those lost points somewhere you're more capable of getting points. You can always come back to that attack when you're more skilled and it clicks for you, but until then just bomb the shit out of it and stop letting it get you down.

[Randorama]

How does "having a plan" and "being an active player" help against random spam patterns (such as stage 2 midboss pink bullets) or patterns where boss movements practically turn it into a random spam pattern (such as stage 2 boss's "slow spirals"? And, yes, I read OVB's suggestion, and I can't get it to work; even at the far edge, both arms are still usually on screen, and then I just have one less direction to dodge).

Sit down, think on how to dodge a pattern, then the next, then the second next,...,etc. Plan in advance, don't start a credit not knowing what you will do when confronted with patterns. If you don't have a solution, then think of one and figure out why you die so often.

Also, what am I supposed to do when a run goes off the rails? If I die to stage-2 midboss while towing a bunch of hypers, it's not like it's an isolated thing

[/quote]

Have a plan for when you screw up, each different way.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Had run of JSS where every single possible thing that could go wrong due to randomness did.

[Obscura]

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

Now I can't even get past stage 1.

Seriously, out of at least 50 credits I just played, a grand total of 4 made it past stage 1. Of those, literally none even made it to the stage 2 midboss before I saw the fucking game over screen.

IN THREE FUCKING DAYS, I've gone from seeing stage 4 on about a third of my runs to not being able to get past stage 1. God fucking damnit.

[nZero]

You'll start to do better again once the frustration and rage clear out of your system.

[Obscura]

I just recorded an shmupmame 2.2 inp of a couple of runs. It's a lot better than I was doing a few minutes ago (and more like how I was doing a few days ago), but it's still pretty damn bad (lol, first run has 2 deaths before the stage 2 midboss; had I not been recording, I'd have just tossed the credit and started over).

http://www.mediafire.com/?3ig8ba5ede42f52

Anyone know how to turn this stuff into a youtube vid?

EDIT:
Ok, I think I've figured out how to youtube this, the first one should be up at this link:
http://youtu.be/r-IAtfNVMsY

Second shitplay up here:
http://youtu.be/bGf0wr5bDyU

[O. Van Bruce]

Do you use a keyboard? try a pad...

Do you use a pad? try a keyboard...

And an arcade stick (though it's expensive)

you may be using the wrong peripherial for your abilities. I sucked utterly for 3 months of keyboard playing until I started using a pad. That opened the world for me XD

As for the gameplay... just wait an hour and, if you want, I can stream somethething using skype. We can talk about any problem you have and share ideas. That is, if we understand our english XD

Edit: LOL... It's been a long time since I played DOJ... too much time XD

[Obscura]

So, what can I do to "learn" how to deal with a spot consistently if it's not a pattern that's aimed in any way?

Those damn "huge spinning merry-go-rounds" at the start of DOJ stage 3 are slaughtering me. I've learned that if I laser on the edge of one that the pattern is a lot thinner out there and overlaps a lot less than if I try to stay right under its center (although I don't understand why this is the case, I would think that a spiral pattern would hit equally everywhere), but I still die entirely too much to those assholes, even after an insane amount of savestate practice.

[Randorama]

So, what can I do to "learn" how to deal with a spot consistently if it's not a pattern that's aimed in any way?

The Strategy section exists for this purpose, thanks.

[Bananamatic]

So, what can I do to "learn" how to deal with a spot consistently if it's not a pattern that's aimed in any way?

Those damn "huge spinning merry-go-rounds" at the start of DOJ stage 3 are slaughtering me. I've learned that if I laser on the edge of one that the pattern is a lot thinner out there and overlaps a lot less than if I try to stay right under its center (although I don't understand why this is the case, I would think that a spiral pattern would hit equally everywhere), but I still die entirely too much to those assholes, even after an insane amount of savestate practice.

Get better, you are supposed to dodge these head on

[Deca]

So, what can I do to "learn" how to deal with a spot consistently if it's not a pattern that's aimed in any way?

Those damn "huge spinning merry-go-rounds" at the start of DOJ stage 3 are slaughtering me. I've learned that if I laser on the edge of one that the pattern is a lot thinner out there and overlaps a lot less than if I try to stay right under its center (although I don't understand why this is the case, I would think that a spiral pattern would hit equally everywhere), but I still die entirely too much to those assholes, even after an insane amount of savestate practice.

Get better, you are supposed to dodge these head on

Yeah, no disrespect or sarcasm intended but there's no trick to that part. You just dodge it.

I honestly think DOJ may be a bit too hard for you right now, and I'm not trying to discourage you at all. When I first played DOJ way back when I just could not enjoy it because it constantly had me in over my head after the first stage more or less. It was just so far beyond my abilities that it wasn't fun at all. It wasn't until I came back to it years later (when it became available on mame) that I started actually making progress and understanding it. Once I'd built up general skills that come just from time spent playing STGs I was able to learn more meaningful things from DOJ. It was actually my occasional sessions with it that helped me understand pattern reading and hitbox awareness well enough to finally complete the first loop of DDP (which is, incidentally, why the I DID IT thread exists).

I think you should set this game aside for a bit and play something else. As long as you're playing you'll be improving, and playing different games helps you develop general skills by having to apply them in various ways rather than repeatedly applying them to the same scenario. I also think that a game with a slightly milder learning curve would help you progress a bit more efficiently.

Don't think that if you set the game aside the time you put into it will have been wasted, you'll still remember most of the important stuff you've learned when you come back to it.

[chempop]

Being too dyslexic to remember if "Wait Control" should be turned on or off to have slowdown present.
I struggled with DOJ-BL for a year (playing with slowdown turned off), stage-5 was just impossible. Once I turned the slowdown on it only took a handful of attempts before clearing the first loop.