Xeno Fighters R (2019 GM Studio Port)

[Twiddle]

The problem I have with it is that would actually make the game harder for people who don't do well in EX stages and instead prefer to go through B stages only as a result; the result being that they end up reaching the maximum rank clamp faster due to the inherent +7500 minimum rank increase that B stages provide, which is sort of counter-intuitive. I think you should just hook the lower-bound and survival time multiplier solely to objective fail/pass checking and deaths/continues instead.

The clamp will also raise more or less naturally on an all-B path regardless of whether EX stages are triggered. You can also introduce more enemy waves through the rank system, which aids potential chaining (since chaining reduces rank, a higher minimum could be better for scoring under this system.) Since the minimum will raise undoubtedly slower under this system, deaths would be more meaningful.

Here's an example clamp chart:

Clear 1 - Minimum is 15000, can only be affected by dying at this point
Clear 2, objective passed - Minimum is now 20000 (+5000) survival timer: 2x
Clear 3B, objective failed - Minimum is now 15000 (-5000) survival timer: 1x
Clear 4A, objective passed - Minimum is now 20000 (+5000) survival timer: 2x
Clear 5B, objective passed - Minimum is now 25000 (+5000) survival timer: 3x
Clear 6B w/1 death, objective passed - Minimum is now 22500 (-7500, +5000) survival timer: 4x
Clear 7B w/1 death, objective failed - Minimum is now 10000 (-7500, -5000) survival timer: 3x

Another example clamp chart:

Clear 1 - 15000 survival timer: 1x
Clear 2, objective passed - 20000 survival timer: 2x
Clear 3B, objective passed w/trigger EX - 25000 survival timer: 3x
Clear EX-1 - 25000 (stays) survival timer: 3x
Clear 4B, objective passed w/trigger EX - 30000 survival timer: 4x
Clear EX-2 - 30000 (stays) survival timer: 4x
Clear 5B, objective passed w/trigger EX - 35000 survival timer: 5x
Clear EX-3 - 35000 (stays) survival timer: 5x
Clear 6B, objective passed w/trigger EX - 40000 survival timer: 6x
Clear EX-4 - 40000 (stays) survival timer: 6x
Clear 7B, objective passed - 45000 survival timer: 7x
Clear EX-5 - 45000 (stays) survival timer: 7x
Clear 8, trigger EX - 45000 (no objectives to fail/pass here?) survival timer: 7x
Clear EX-6 - Raised to 50000 after completing regardless since next stage is Stage 9, survival timer: who gives a fuck

Another example:

Clear 1 - 15000 (starting)
Clear 2, pass - 20000 survival timer: 2x
Clear 3B, pass - 25000 survival timer: 3x
Clear 4B, pass - 30000 survival timer: 4x
Clear 5B, pass - 35000 survival timer: 5x
Clear 6B, pass - 40000 survival timer: 6x
Clear 7B, pass - 45000 survival timer: 7x
Move on to 9 - 50000 survival timer: who cares

and so on.

Also, while deaths/continues will also drop the minimum rank, I believe they should also drop the current rank to the new minimum, so the rank effect will be more pronounced to the player. Objective failures should not drop current rank to the new minimum, though.

Another mechanic to think about: Since extends would be influenced by medal pickups, and EX stages give more, it gives more opportunities for rank control by suiciding for EX players who want to control rank. With 5 reserve lives (3 starting + 3 extends?,) one can suicide during 7A/7B or EX-5 three times to drop rank by almost half for stage 8 and EX-6.

[BPzeBanshee]

The problem I have with it is that would actually make the game harder for people who don't do well in EX stages and instead prefer to go through B stages only as a result; the result being that they end up reaching the maximum rank clamp faster due to the inherent +7500 minimum rank increase that B stages provide, which is sort of counter-intuitive. I think you should just hook the lower-bound and survival time multiplier solely to objective fail/pass checking and deaths/continues instead.

I can see where you're getting at now, though Im not sure I agree with the idea. Having significant rank change by objective success/failure as opposed to discriminating by stage could work as well while still leaving the EX stages as a reward for going through the effort to get to the stages, but if someone's not-so-good at an EX stage they should practice on it to improve. Speaking of which I did a 1cc on this game today.

The clamp will also raise more or less naturally on an all-B path regardless of whether EX stages are triggered. You can also introduce more enemy waves through the rank system, which aids potential chaining (since chaining reduces rank, a higher minimum could be better for scoring under this system.) Since the minimum will raise undoubtedly slower under this system, deaths would be more meaningful.

I thought we were leaving the variable changes in rank to enemy bullet patterns and bullet speed, NOT the enemies themselves. That will do the same as adding extra HP to them and wrecking chain flow, if I read this right. This is starting to wrap my head around though, the rest seems logical to me.

[Twiddle]

The clamp will also raise more or less naturally on an all-B path regardless of whether EX stages are triggered. You can also introduce more enemy waves through the rank system, which aids potential chaining (since chaining reduces rank, a higher minimum could be better for scoring under this system.) Since the minimum will raise undoubtedly slower under this system, deaths would be more meaningful.

I thought we were leaving the variable changes in rank to enemy bullet patterns and bullet speed, NOT the enemies themselves. That will do the same as adding extra HP to them and wrecking chain flow, if I read this right. This is starting to wrap my head around though, the rest seems logical to me.

I intended it to be more of a risk/reward mechanic. The new enemies that show up don't have to be hard ones that spew more crap, they could just be weak powerup carriers or the like.

[S20-TBL]

I think Twiddle has a point, and not just because I was going to suggest the same thing. Variations in gameplay can often be a welcome addition. In this case, it doesn't have to be the more important and integral enemies that affect chaining or any of the other bonuses like Destroyed-at-a-Time or Quick Shot (which is why I asked beforehand what elements will be affected by rank, since I wasn't sure if Alluro changed his mind ever since he made his statement on bullet speed and density). It can be an odd wave of popcorns, a new type of popcorn enemy that replaces some of the waves in a level, or an occasional extra sniper.

Though, given the amount of complexity this brings to the table (I just got through cleaning up the code in my own game and guide dang it, it was tough finding all the bugs left over from the old version after I made similar changes), I would also suggest it as a later addition so as not to push back any of the planned immediate releases and add unnecessary pressure at this stage.

[BPzeBanshee]

Okay, I think I understand that better. Extra medal planes could work, and maybe a few snipers, but it seems to me we really need to figure out what we want the user to do to control rank. Decreasing rank increase for B stages and adding medal planes surely can't be the ultimate solution for this (or can it, I'm usually wrong with these things)?

Do we really want the player to go through B stages only and still get rewarded/get punished/make no difference, or do we want the player to be rewarded (this seems to be pretty much a given now) by going through B stages and getting into the EX stages to manage rank and score more points. Basically what I'm saying is we need a bottom line as to what we want rank to affect in terms of gameplay approach.

[EddyMRA]

New stage in progress:




The Raiden II-style large enemy deaths in which the wreckage falls to the ground and crash will be kept for the remake, along with this being used to fight the boss, Citadel Geryon. It will not take nearly as long as the XFEX version of Citadel Geryon to fight, for sure.

A new enemy has been added. The cruiser warships from Raiden Fighters 1 join the submarines in the naval part of the stage.

Regarding the rank management discussion, I'm all for having bonus enemy waves show up for getting specific chains in specific parts of a stage.

[EddyMRA]

Stage 5-B 60% WIP video up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI4ZS7bdt-M

All that's left are the F-117 Nighthawk support fighters (which will be the objective of this stage) and the boss, Citadel Geryon.

One new enemy has been added: the cruiser warships from Raiden Fighters 1 now populate the water area along with the submarines. Also, the Raiden II-style falling wreckage when you kill aerial enemies in this stage has been implemented. This will be a key factor in the boss fight.

Compare to the XFEX version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZvh11fuAKk

[BPzeBanshee]

Seeing the jets go down and explode is so damn cool!

Is that for this stage exclusively or do all of those aircraft have that behaviour upon death now?

[S20-TBL]

Do we really want the player to go through B stages only and still get rewarded/get punished/make no difference, or do we want the player to be rewarded (this seems to be pretty much a given now) by going through B stages and getting into the EX stages to manage rank and score more points. Basically what I'm saying is we need a bottom line as to what we want rank to affect in terms of gameplay approach.

You raise a good point. Let's try going back to the foundations.

The agreed-on approach was that rank would simply increase or decrease the base difficulty of the game, in terms of enemy firepower--here, it's bullet speed and density, probably frequency too. Nothing too fancy there, and given that XF-R is supposed to be a Seibu Kaihatsu homage, there's nothing wrong with it. The real question is the reasonableness of the difficulty increase, and I personally don't think any of the XF-R supporters and crew would want the game to pull off a Yagawa-styled rank punishment scenario where it becomes *impossible* to clear if you don't watch what you're doing, unless there's someone out there who actually desires this sort of thing.

In short, making the difficulty bump reasonable would simply mean tuning the difficulty in order to match the player's skill, which was Kaiser's stated intention when he first suggested the rank overview, as opposed to outright punishing the player should he mismanage the rank. Hence Twiddle's initial remark regarding balancing the rank variables for clearing B stages only, as opposed to clearing both B and EX stages, which makes sense if you think of it in this fashion instead of a Garegga or Batrider fashion. If any rank management, it's more to keep the difficulty reasonable enough for the player's current skill level, but even if you bump it up (in Twiddle's scenario) it will come off as a more natural increase in difficulty than an outright "OH SNAP WHAT HAVE I DONE" moment.

Besides this, there's also another thread: SkyKnight's level progression chart. Wanna get the best ending? Be prepared for tougher and tougher fights! It would help if there were some unlockables here too--like unlocking levels in Conquest Mode and bosses in Boss Rush once you beat them in Arcade Mode. So if the player wants to get the most out of the game, he's gonna have to brush up on his shmuppery skills.

Regarding the EX Stage issue, I personally think EX Stages should provide at least a considerable amount of rank decrease upon completion as part of the reward for even getting them , BUT considering that EX Stages are gigantic risk-reward areas filled with medals and are favorable grounds for gaining extends, and also in light of a "higher rank = more challenging" paradigm as opposed to a "higher rank = see you in the 9th circle of hell" one, I also see how Twiddle is against it. It's Alluro's call on this one though.

Stage 5-B 60% WIP video up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI4ZS7bdt-M

The area with the cruisers and subs is pure awesome, bar none. I love how the new wobble comes into play here.

[EddyMRA]

Whatever I will decide upon rank management, it will not please everyone. At least in XF-R's maximum rank, which is what the game is now, it's not unplayable like Garegga's is. Going by that, I say dump the way multipliers for survival time is handled currently. It should go up by the same amount regardless or entering an A-stage, B-stage, or EX-stage. However, the catch is if you die or continue, that survival multiplier goes down too.

@BPzeBanshee: The Raiden II falling wreckage is only for Stage 5-B. It will be used as a means to fight the boss.

[BPzeBanshee]

Whatever I will decide upon rank management, it will not please everyone. At least in XF-R's maximum rank, which is what the game is now, it's not unplayable like Garegga's is. Going by that, I say dump the way multipliers for survival time is handled currently. It should go up by the same amount regardless or entering an A-stage, B-stage, or EX-stage. However, the catch is if you die or continue, that survival multiplier goes down too.

@BPzeBanshee: The Raiden II falling wreckage is only for Stage 5-B. It will be used as a means to fight the boss.

I like this idea. Non-discrimination in survival time across the board will allow for more precise refinements in the rank system that's relevant to those stages, and that's only if we do that at all.

[Kaiser]

Happy christmas for everyone involved within XF-R's development! Maybe it is too early by 7 FFF days! However i'm wishing you all a great next year and that all of you will excel at what you do now AND BE PROUD OF IT!

[S20-TBL]

To celebrate the Christmas season, I take to the skies with my trusty Pokemon-powered sleigh and give the gift of electricity to hundreds of invading BRES planes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNtNa68j9Ks

Sorry for the sound quality, I had my Realtek audio mixer on while recording the video.

[Twiddle]

Whatever I will decide upon rank management, it will not please everyone. At least in XF-R's maximum rank, which is what the game is now, it's not unplayable like Garegga's is. Going by that, I say dump the way multipliers for survival time is handled currently. It should go up by the same amount regardless or entering an A-stage, B-stage, or EX-stage. However, the catch is if you die or continue, that survival multiplier goes down too.

@BPzeBanshee: The Raiden II falling wreckage is only for Stage 5-B. It will be used as a means to fight the boss.

I like this idea. Non-discrimination in survival time across the board will allow for more precise refinements in the rank system that's relevant to those stages, and that's only if we do that at all.

Yeah, that would probably be a good option, having it at the highest (1 per frame -> lowered to 1 per 2 frames after continuing once, 1 per 3 after continuing twice, etc) before dying/continuing and nothing else affecting it.

[Skyknight]

For the record, I definitely remember a wreckage sprite for the A-10 Thunderbolts in Air Gallet...

[EddyMRA]

Upcoming v0.10 Beta updates:

Please continue!


Continue functionality has finally been implemented! Unlike in the old XF-EX, the continue prompt freezes all game action. When you choose to continue, you will be allowed to select a fighter to use in your next credit:


Ships that are still locked will have a '?' in their place. Thanks go to emphatic for the cover-flow style ship selection method idea. A few notes about continuing:
*The continue functionality is available only in Arcade Mode.
*There will be unlimited continues. However, continuing in final stages (Stage 5-C, Stage 8-2, Stage 9) or any EX stage will restart that stage.
*Continuing resets your score, tainting the ones digit with the number of continues you used.
*Any score gotten will be lost upon continuing; any score high enough to place on the leaderboard will not be recorded.
*Continuing massively brings down game rank (-35000 using Twiddle's proposed ranking scale of 50000).

Another new implementation is an objective display upon level start:


The text is displayed one character at a time, as if it's being transmitted to you, complete with sound effect. If you forgot or otherwise missed the objective text, you can review it in the revamped Pause Screen:

The Pause Screen now also displays the current stage number and name, as well as the total number of medals collected in the current session and the number needed to gain an extend (extra life).

Happy new year, shmuppers! I look to getting v0.10 Beta out by the end of the month.

[nZero]

Wow, you've been busy! I'm really looking forward to trying it out

[EddyMRA]

Forgot to post this. I also changed the background for the high score leaderboard:

It's the animated cloud tunnel from the title screen of Strikers 1945 III.

[EddyMRA]

To further personalize the new Gemini Wing ships, they have been given a Gunball tail. The tail represents how much the ships are powered up, rather than subweapon stock like in the original game. Programming-wise, the algorithm is based on the Gradius Option movement.

Gemini Blue:

Since Gemini Blue can use both Laser and Missile weapons at the same time, Gunballs for both appear on the tail.

Gemini Red:


The Gemini Red uses either Laser or Missile at any one time, so only one set of up to four subweapon Gunballs appears on the tail. Since the Gemini Red's subweapons are based on attacks by Gemini Wing bosses, custom Gunball icons were made: the Cyclops eye for the Laser weapon and a miniature Green Walrus head for the Missile weapon.

[Drum]

Happy new year! Nice progress report, looking forward to month's end.
I think I am gonna try and contribute to the high score thread - it might take me a while before I can submit something that doesn't suck, though, as the Miclus' (Miclii?) still elude me and I am not ocd enough/too lazy to hunt them all down. :(

[S20-TBL]

Busy much? Lots of major additions here, awesome work.

I had a minor suggestion which I only remembered just now. Would it be possible to have a "Try Again" option in the Arcade Mode's pause menu, which would take you back to the Ship Select screen and reset your score if you choose it?

[emphatic]

Awesome! When you pause or choose to continue, will the action start right away, or do you get a 3->2->1 counter? Unless it's hard to implement, it would be cool.

[monkeyman]

This just keeps looking better and better!

One thing I am curious about is why have forced stage restart at continue only on Ex levels? I always figured restarting the stage when continuing was a good way of encouraging the player to carry on while forcing them to actually learn the level. (though I'm sure everyone round here will be going for the 1cc anyway). To avoid a credit feed fest will there be a limited amount of continues?

[EddyMRA]

One thing I am curious about is why have forced stage restart at continue only on Ex levels? I always figured restarting the stage when continuing was a good way of encouraging the player to carry on while forcing them to actually learn the level. (though I'm sure everyone round here will be going for the 1cc anyway). To avoid a credit feed fest will there be a limited amount of continues?

Not just EX stages, but the final stages on each path (Stage 5-C, Stage 8-2, Stage 9) will restart when you continue. Forced restart upon continuing in the other stages is not really necessary at this point, since you can select those stages in Conquest Mode anyway if you want to learn the level.

[BPzeBanshee]

Wow, that's amazing stuff Alluro!

Can we get a Random Ship Select option like in original XFEX at some point too? I noticed there was a ? in the earlier versions and I suspected it was going to get implemented but then it got taken out.

And I dont suppose we could get an option to disable continues entirely via option settings? I played XFEX the other day and found it was too easy to press the wrong button and lose an otherwise pretty okay score to continue and get it replaced with a really crap score. Maybe I'm worrying too much again, should wait for the next release and see how it behaves.

[EddyMRA]

Maybe I'm worrying too much again, should wait for the next release and see how it behaves.

Yeah you are worrying too much again. When the continue prompt first appears, input is ignored for about 3/4 of a second so you don't accidentally press a button on an option you do not want. And XF-R's continue uses the arrow keys to select YES or NO and the Fire button to confirm the selection.

Also, I will scrap the random select function. With the sheer number of selectable fighters and the unlock system, it will be a pain to code.

[EddyMRA]

Video up showcasing the new Gemini Wing Gunball tails and the continue functionality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1cksgfyi0

[emphatic]

I see that the medal value is kept when you continue. Is this by design?

[burgerkingdiamond]

I wasn't paying much attention to this until I say the Gemini Wing stuff. Awesome!

[burgerkingdiamond]

This thread is way too long for me to read. So maybe someone can answer just a few questions?

Where can I download a trial?

Will this eventually get a disc release?

Is there a strategy section?

Is there a link to this original Xeno Fighters that is mentioned?

thanks

BKD