The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Obscura]

MAME doesn't support savestates for the SH-3 games. To get them to work at all requires super-strict conditions, and even then, there's about a 50% chance it'll just crash instead, and, if it doesn't crash, about a 50% chance that the bullets will be invisible.

I don't know how I'm supposed to avoid working out strict guidelines. I know I need to use bombs in places x, y, and z, and I know I have n bombs in total; in this case, because I can't get the extends because scoring in BL is such a bitch (scoring is based on the options, which I can't control? Well, that's fucking great), I've basically got *exactly* what I need, so I pretty much have to never die with bombs in stock, and never die at an area that isn't somewhat planned.

And, now, after a few more credits, it's even clearer that I'm never fucking going to be able to do it; hell, I can't even get the 2CC I was able to land last night anymore, since I've magically lost the ability to do stage 4. Nothing I try in the second half of stage 3 works. Absolutely nothing. Stick to using laser, since it brings the woodlice down faster, even if you're not near them? Everything is aimed at you, you're dead. Try baiting their shots to one side, then quickly moving to the other, sweeping them with shot in the process? Pinned against the wall by a wave of ladybugs, dead. After the first scarab in that section, move to the left to kill the bugs there? Pinned by a wave of ladybugs, dead. Don't move? Woodlice kill you (hell, there's a very good chance they will anyways). Nothing I try against the boss's first form works. The pink shots of the first attack come in faster than I can possibly react, the needle spray rapes me, and the pink bubbles are just totally wtf (hey, the only hole near me just got filled by a purple blob of bullets, isn't that convenient?).

Also, I'm so bad at scoring in this game that at the end of stage 3, the difference between trying to score the first 2.5 levels vs. totally ignoring the counter is about 15 million points.

Really, I think this just about says it all:

SURE IS A GOOD THING FUTARI BL IS EASIER THAN KETSUI.

(also, why does MAME fuck up the aspect ratio on screenshots of Ketsui?)

[Skykid]

SURE IS A GOOD THING FUTARI BL IS EASIER THAN KETSUI.

Miles easier.

[Deca]

When you tell yourself "I need to bomb st2 boss final attack" you give up on trying to learn it. What youre doing is banging your head against the wall trying to force a clear with your current skills rather than observing, learning, and broadening them. I can understand bombing once or twice on st3 boss but theres no difficult dodging on st2 boss at all if you work out how to approach each attack. There's nothing weird or counterintuitive about any of it.

Beyond that just make sure you play the entirety of every credit with the exception of st1 bombs/deaths or multiple deaths in st2. Don't give up on a run just because it's not going exactly as planned.

[Drachenherz]

I fucking love Futari Original Black Label. I cleared it twice, got a score of about 422 Million, nothing to brag about.

My problem now, my big grievance, so to say, is that I cannot clear BL anymore - I can't bring myself NOT to play for score, and I always jack up the rank so high that boss 3 fucks me deeply in my abdomen, and then I get nervous and *bam*, sayonara 1cc-attempt, hello restart...

Thanks to the iOS-port, my interest in 1.5 maniac was kindled, and waddayasay... It's a whole new world! Getting to stage 3 Boss maniac without too many problems, and with a little bit of practice, I think a clear should be possible in a reasonable amount of time. What I like: No rank in maniac! (or am I wrong).

Now my big question is: Shall I stick with 1.5 Maniac, as I can practice it "on the go" with the iOS port. Or should I play BL maniac? (Actually, BL maniac feels even better than 1.5, but I don't want to "spread" practice between 1.5 on iOS and BL on the box...)

Edit: Ah fuck, I contributed to this thread again, although I told myself NOT TO....

[DrTrouserPlank]

It should be noted that I wasn't talking about Futari black label.

If you want to talk about it I'd say it's about as hard a 1.5. Granted the bosses go down quicker but the increased speed and bullets compensate for that. I'm not going to get started on Futari again though. It's a broken game as far as I'm concerned.

Still enjoying my life shmup free. Miss the shmups but don't miss the stress and fits of rage and hurling abuse at my monitor.

[AntiFritz]

(also, why does MAME fuck up the aspect ratio on screenshots of Ketsui?)

That's the native resolution of the pgm games (mame just stretches it back out when playing).

[Obscura]

When you tell yourself "I need to bomb st2 boss final attack" you give up on trying to learn it. What youre doing is banging your head against the wall trying to force a clear with your current skills rather than observing, learning, and broadening them. I can understand bombing once or twice on st3 boss but theres no difficult dodging on st2 boss at all if you work out how to approach each attack. There's nothing weird or counterintuitive about any of it.

You say that as though I haven't fucking tried to learn that attack from the stage 2 boss (it's not the final attack, BTW; that one is easy. It's the one during the second form where he shoots the purple ribbons with the little red balls, and follows it up with big purple balls everywhere). I have. Easily hundreds of times. Success rate is very nearly zero percent.

And when I die there? It's not just a death. IT'S A DEATH WITH FOUR FUCKING BOMBS. I'm not *just* losing a life; hell, I'm not just losing a life with a fresh bomb load. I'm losing one of the game's three bomb pickups. At that point, there really is very little reason to continue with the credit.

BTW, Hydeaux's 1-Sissy vid for BL says coming into the boss "you probably need to bomb here". And he does bomb. On that form, in fact.

[Elixir]

You do realize that Futari isn't emulated properly, while Ketsui is fine? It runs like shit even in the "slowpoke" build.

[Obscura]

You do realize that Futari isn't emulated properly, while Ketsui is fine? It runs like shit even in the "slowpoke" build.

Actually, no, I didn't know that. What exactly isn't correct?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

You say that as though I haven't fucking tried to learn that attack from the stage 2 boss

The problem is your attitude shouldn't be "I've tried to learn it, but I just can't!" but rather "I haven't learned it yet". Sure, it might take you a while to learn it (I know I occasionally smack into one stupidly despite not finding it all that bad normally), but you can beat the game even if you have to bomb it, and you will eventually be able to deal with that attack if you keep working at it. I just don't think you should let a section you find difficult discourage you; I know the woodlice section was a wall for me for months and months when I was first playing the game until it clicked for me.

[mesh control]

stay at the bottom of the screen in Futari BL.

stay at the top of the screen in Ketsui.

[Obscura]

You say that as though I haven't fucking tried to learn that attack from the stage 2 boss

The problem is your attitude shouldn't be "I've tried to learn it, but I just can't!" but rather "I haven't learned it yet". Sure, it might take you a while to learn it (I know I occasionally smack into one stupidly despite not finding it all that bad normally), but you can beat the game even if you have to bomb it, and you will eventually be able to deal with that attack if you keep working at it. I just don't think you should let a section you find difficult discourage you; I know the woodlice section was a wall for me for months and months when I was first playing the game until it clicked for me.

I'm pretty damn sure it's not a "yet".

BL is the game that everyone else in the world is able to 1CC after a few tries, even if they've only been playing shmups for a couple of days. Meanwhile, here I am, having played them a fuckton for the past few months, AND I CAN'T EVEN BEAT THE THIRD FUCKING STAGE RELIABLY. It's not even just the pillbugs (although I certainly can't deal with them, either); I've got no prayer on the fucking boss. I literally can't even tell what's going on when fighting him. It's just pure fucking chaos with bullets raining fucking everywhere at absurd fucking speeds with no fucking discernible patterns. If I don't bomb every time a bullet gets anywhere near me, I die. And if I haven't played the game absolutely fucking perfectly up to that point, I run out of bombs and die.

It really doesn't matter how easy the rest of the game is, as long as it's got a stage that completely ridiculous. Although I have to LOL at BL for making the midboss easier and the boss harder. Because people thought the midboss was the problem in that stage, not the second half

[mesh control]

stop playing BL, seriously.

When I was playing the game (for score) I always had trouble with stage 3. I took a week off of the game and went to Evo, got back and on my first credit beat my previous score and no missed to stage 4 mid boss. You're playing worse with all that tension you've built up.

my 2 cents.

[Deca]

I'm pretty damn sure it's not a "yet".

Then you should just stop playing shooters. Or at least stop playing them with the intention of beating them. Not even really joking or anything here, if you're resigned to failure and sincerely believe you are incapable of improving then you just won't ever get any better.

I'm looking at some videos to refresh myself here, I'd just play a credit but I'm out of town this weekend. How are any of the st2 boss patterns difficult at all? All you have to do is move across the bottom of the screen, there are no complicated dodges or anything. One of the earlier patterns is kind of ugly but if you just stay at the bottom of the screen it sorts itself out by the time it gets to you and you only have to actually dodge one or two bullets. The last part of the second phase tends to open up huge gaps that such that dodging through the first wave puts you in the right spot to dodge the wave that follows.

Just looked at a video of the st3 boss, definitely easier than 1.5. There's a LOT more slowdown, especially during the most difficult attacks. The final attack may be slightly more difficult, but that's only because in 1.5 Abnormal Palm can kill him before the waves of bullets pick up any speed whatsoever.

But really, if you're convinced you'll NEVER be able to no-miss the BL Original st2 boss then you're going to have a lot of trouble clearing anything.

[Elixir]

You do realize that Futari isn't emulated properly, while Ketsui is fine? It runs like shit even in the "slowpoke" build.

Actually, no, I didn't know that. What exactly isn't correct?

There should be a definition for when one asks such a broad question wherein the responder feels like creating a reply would be work, rather than advice.

Every single stage has inaccurate or missing slowdown. Check out some Futari 360 videos on nicovideo/youtube for more. Since you've posted a picture of dying to the slaters, an area which has specific slowdown in the 360 and arcade board, it wouldn't be surprising if the inaccuracy is hindering your progress. But that's no easy scapegoat. Since you're so adamant about progressing with Futari, buying a 360 and the region-free Futari is more than likely the better way of going about it.

[Obscura]

I'm looking at some videos to refresh myself here, I'd just play a credit but I'm out of town this weekend. How are any of the st2 boss patterns difficult at all? All you have to do is move across the bottom of the screen, there are no complicated dodges or anything. One of the earlier patterns is kind of ugly but if you just stay at the bottom of the screen it sorts itself out by the time it gets to you and you only have to actually dodge one or two bullets. The last part of the second phase tends to open up huge gaps that such that dodging through the first wave puts you in the right spot to dodge the wave that follows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPQ2NPUci6k
The attack that starts at 5:06. Hilariously enough, this guy (who isn't the guy who did the 1-Sissy vid) also bombs that attack. Seems everyone agrees; fuck st2 boss's second form.

Also, holy shit at that slowdown. I definitely don't get anywhere near that much. I had figured those 63% blitter rate numbers people were tossing out were just "I'd like to have this much slowdown", but god damn that's a ton in that vid...

[Deca]

Honestly I bet a lack of slowdown is what's giving you problems. BL being easy comes mainly from it having a LOT more slowdown than 1.5, if that isn't emulated properly I could definitely see some of the parts you're having trouble with being quite a bit more difficult than they should be.

[azinth]

The attack that starts at 5:06. Hilariously enough, this guy (who isn't the guy who did the 1-Sissy vid) also bombs that attack. Seems everyone agrees; fuck st2 boss's second form.

lol, I'm no Futari master or anything, but it looks like that guy bombed because he started streaming the attack in the middle of the screen and got trapped. If he'd started farther off to the side he'd have had more than enough room to dodge it.

Looking out for stuff like that is pretty important when you're trying to devise strategies for spots you find tough. Just because a route or strategy you're using allows you to get through a section once in a while doesn't necessarily mean it's the best one available. There have been so many times where I struggled to get consistent at a stage section or boss attack using a faulty strategy, only to realize later that all I had to do was position myself a bit differently or release a charge attack a second sooner/later. Little things like that can often make all the difference.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Seems everyone agrees; fuck st2 boss's second form.

If you pause the video right before the bomb, none of the bullets were about to hit (the bullets around Reco were a widening gap). It was more of a panic bomb really. It should also be noted that as long as you're hitting the boss constantly during that form it's actually possible in BL to kill its second form before those spread waves of large purple balls hit, so it's actually pretty trivial in BL.

The video you posted on the other hand has the player just sitting off to the left not even hitting with the main shots as the ST2 boss's second form appears for some reason. I certainly hope you're not following that video's strategy...

[dunpeal2064]

I never bomb on stage 2 boss 2nd phase. Just wiggle through that first pattern, move to the side, tap-dodge the 2nd pattern in one direction, and that last purple spew in the opposite direction.

[Obscura]

Seems everyone agrees; fuck st2 boss's second form.

If you pause the video right before the bomb, none of the bullets were about to hit (the bullets around Reco were a widening gap). It was more of a panic bomb really. It should also be noted that as long as you're hitting the boss constantly during that form it's actually possible in BL to kill its second form before those spread waves of large purple balls hit, so it's actually pretty trivial in BL.

The video you posted on the other hand has the player just sitting off to the left not even hitting with the main shots as the ST2 boss's second form appears for some reason. I certainly hope you're not following that video's strategy...

I'm not following his strategy at all (I had never even seen the vid before making that post); I just needed an example of the attack, and that vid was the first youtube result when I searched.

Also, sure enough, it really is impossible to get at all accurate slowdown with slowpoke MAME; if I set it so that I get slowdown at the proper places against the stage 3 boss, then it slows down absolutely fucking everywhere. So much for Futari, I guess.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also, sure enough, it really is impossible to get at all accurate slowdown with slowpoke MAME; if I set it so that I get slowdown at the proper places against the stage 3 boss, then it slows down absolutely fucking everywhere. So much for Futari, I guess.

Well, you can't complain it's Futari's fault that Slowpoke MAME doesn't emulate it properly yet. If it makes you feel better, it's worth it to get a 360. Surprised you didn't notice the lack of slowdown compared to playthroughs on Youtube before.

[AntiFritz]

Doesn't futari bl on 360 have MORE slowdown then on pcb anyway?

[Gus]

Also, sure enough, it really is impossible to get at all accurate slowdown with slowpoke MAME; if I set it so that I get slowdown at the proper places against the stage 3 boss, then it slows down absolutely fucking everywhere. So much for Futari, I guess.

Well, you can't complain it's Futari's fault that Slowpoke MAME doesn't emulate it properly yet. If it makes you feel better, it's worth it to get a 360. Surprised you didn't notice the lack of slowdown compared to playthroughs on Youtube before.

He seems to be incapable of figuring out how to dodge the most basic things and thinks scoring is 'hold down the right shot type for an hour' even after seeing superplay vids show how it's really done. Do you really expect him to have the brain power to notice such things?

Anyway I think it's worth pointing out that from my limited experience playing on the PCB the 360 port of Original has a lot of extra slowdown. The Stage 3 boss in particular has a lot of slowdown that shouldn't be there unless you're playing at a high rank.

[Skykid]

The attack that starts at 5:06. Hilariously enough, this guy (who isn't the guy who did the 1-Sissy vid) also bombs that attack. Seems everyone agrees; fuck st2 boss's second form.

lol, I'm no Futari master or anything, but it looks like that guy bombed because he started streaming the attack in the middle of the screen and got trapped. If he'd started farther off to the side he'd have had more than enough room to dodge it.

I was gonna say the same thing, he started the pattern in the wrong place. I never bomb on the second boss, it's not difficult. Third boss's final form occasionally... I often like to brave it for the lulz and can survive it outright on most occasions (although Icarus' smarter logic says to bomb.)

Protip, completely ignore comments like these:

If you want to talk about it I'd say it's about as hard a 1.5.

BL is very easy compared to 1.5. In-fact, it might benefit you more to start with 1.5 -- which is what most people do I think -- and then come back to BL to see how easily you kick its ass.

[Illyrian]

3rd boss is harder in BL because phase 1 goes on for longer. Other than that, there isn't anything about BL that's harder.

You can trigger slowdown so easily by not collecting gems, or using laser with reco it's actually funny.

[CptRansom]

I spent 20 minutes trying to learn how to chain the first part of the first level of DOJBL and failed miserably. "Oh, damn, I shot that big fucking ship too fast and the popcorn showed up a second late. Bye bye, points." I just don't get how it's fun. =/ Maybe I'm just too easily frustrated.

[Skykid]

I spent 20 minutes trying to learn how to chain the first part of the first level of DOJBL and failed miserably.

Unfortunately it takes a lot longer than 20 minutes. Liberating when you get the hang of it though.

[dunpeal2064]

Why is there so much yellow/gold in Dimahoo!!?

My shot is yellow, the bullets are yellow, the items, the bomb pieces, the powerups.

I get hit so damn often from a bullet that I lost in the mess.

And Fuck that st2 boss, trying to score on him is ridiculous.

[CptRansom]

I spent 20 minutes trying to learn how to chain the first part of the first level of DOJBL and failed miserably.

Unfortunately it takes a lot longer than 20 minutes. Liberating when you get the hang of it though.

I literally meant the first part up until the big rotating thing like a minute in to the game. Obnoxious (but not impossible ).