Brexit: Leave wins!

[Immryr]

Saw a UK Farmer on the news, strongly in favor of leaving EU. It struck me that he does not realize that at least 60% of his revenue is due to EU subsidies

People are stupid.

[Xyga]

^ Saw the opposite yesterday, some farmers and fishermen who were perfectly aware of it, but couldn't stand the ridiculous process (it really is absurd) but also couldn't understand the reasons behind all this and naturally thought it might work just as well without (none mentioned the absurdities of mass distribution networks though, when those are the real problem).

[Tarma]

I live in a fairly rural area of England, and round here all the farmers have got big signs up backing Brexit... so either they are all stupid or they know something the remain camp don't.... Never met a poor farmer either... although getting money out of them is like bleeding a rock.

[Tarma]

• Do you worry about the UK leaving the EU?
  Will leaving the EU damage the UK economy mid-term?
  Will leaving the EU damage the UK economy long-term?
  Will leaving the EU increase the cost of living in the UK?
  Will leaving the EU force people to retire later?

.

No.
Probably not.
No.
Doubtful... staying in the EU sure ain't making it cheaper.
No. The retirement age is already set to increase in the UK and that has nothing to do with leaving the EU.

Just waiting for George Osborne to come forward now and say the World is going to end next Friday if we vote out the day before.... and while that may sound flipant, the hysterical financial threats coming from "In" may as well be as stupid as we're all doomed.

[neorichieb1971]

I loved the post on my facebook that stated if we leave the EU Godzilla will attack the UK

[Tarma]

I loved the post on my facebook that stated if we leave the EU Godzilla will attack the UK

I hear he's bringing Gamera with him as well.

Sure will beat my regular Friday's.

[MintyTheCat]

Xyga: if the UK leaves the EU then yes, France will end up being the second largest economy within the EU after German - something France has either been at second or third place with the UK for quite some time.

It is not so much about "told you so" or "leaving for xenophobic reasons" - in fact, you will find that on the most part the UK is a very tolerant country and a lot more so than many european countries barring Holland as an example and a couple of others.
The issue is that the Brits are pissed off with being told what to do by, and I say this as I see it far too often "on the continent" - lazy, bureaucratic, well paid sloths. The UK like France and Holland were pretty independent for a long, long time and you can appreciate why people are pissed off.

You have to keep in mind that with say France and Germany being mostly socialistic countries it only really gets to be "so hard" and difficult for normal people. Germany will gladly invest money to "keep people in work" where as the UK will simply have people remain long-term unemployed and have people suffer in silence and what's more the welfare systems in France and Germany are closer to giving a normal standard of life than the UK - in the UK anyone who is unemployed and claims welfare is basically instantly in poverty.

So, the Brits, given that things have been pretty hard going for them since 2008 have, I would say, it a bit harder than the French let's say.
When I am back in the UK, barring London which is a bit different, it strikes me just how few opportunities there are and it is pretty dreadful feeling and I think that gets to people. But, it has to be said, the UK government and those who make policy have put this in place but the man on the street doesn't necessarily think like that what he thinks is that there is some kind of solution here - which is how most revolts come about, so he thinks "something needs to be done" then he thinks "but what?" and there it is standing in front of him - "I shall vote for the UK to leave the EU" and although that might be a bit simplistic I do not think it is too far from reality

The question to ask is: how did the UK 'cope' before it joined the EU? And most people will say, it did rather well all in all. Of course, it got messed up a couple of times along the way but then the Brits remember back to the time that a significant proportion of the world was under Brit rule, so they would most likely regard that in broad terms as "we did alright"

I have no idea what will happen next week but I can tell you that it has affected the value of the pound and the Euro.

Money wise: a lot of money passes in and out of the UK to the extent that you often wonder where it goes to. I never saw any real investment in people and the community in the UK compared to Germany let's say, but again, they are different countries with different policies.

Often the Americans just get on with it when something happens to them where they lose money or a disaster happens - we can't all have a hissy fit and stamp our feet and to be honest, that's just some of the arty dicks in northern Paris who do that - the majority of the French are not all "revolution! revolution!" and most are pretty normal.

And, Xyga - France is not likely to be a top power any time soon - too many lazy fuckers who want it all their own way and that goes for a large proportion of people in Europe I would say and too much corruption - those days are over now and what's more you cannot keep referencing France for your "should the UK leave the EU" argument - recall that is actually about the UK, not France and how it will affect France is not a prime concern of the Brits regardless.

Cheers.

[Tarma]

Well a week today we'll all know where we stand... we'll either be sinking slowly into the Atlantic after being booted out of Continental Europe by some beaucratic Brussels paper-shuffler, or we'll be looking toward a bright future free from EU regulations and socialist agenda.

[Bonus!]

And, Xyga - France is not likely to be a top power any time soon - too many lazy fuckers who want it all their own way and that goes for a large proportion of people in Europe I would say and too much corruption - those days are over now and what's more you cannot keep referencing France for your "should the UK leave the EU" argument - recall that is actually about the UK, not France and how it will affect France is not a prime concern of the Brits regardless.

Of course it would be racist if we asked for an overview of the ethnicities of people living off welfare, being locked up in prison, or committing crime. To think of all the money that could be used for more worthwhile purposes!

[Xyga]

Seeing the dominant mindset in this thread, and I'm afraid it reflects the country's. It is clearly not about the pros and cons of being a EU member.
I think it'll be better if you guys leave the EU anyway.

[Tarma]

Seeing the dominant mindset in this thread, and I'm afraid it reflects the country's. It is clearly not about the pros and cons of being a EU member.
I think it'll be better if you guys leave the EU anyway.

I think the majority of rationally minded Brexiters will acknowledge there are pros to remain an EU member, and I myself agree there are pros, BUT, these do not out weigh the cons.

At the end of the day the EU is not a sum total of its equal parts and there are too many fundamental differences between the UK and France / Germany / Belgium / Italy in terms of social and political standing (as Minty has already illustrated) to make social integration a feasible reality.

The fact that most of those who wish to remain would recoil in horror at the idea of dropping Sterling as our national currency for the Euro speaks volumes. And if we don't adopt the Euro, what's the point of further intergration socially or politically?

[MintyTheCat]

Seeing the dominant mindset in this thread, and I'm afraid it reflects the country's. It is clearly not about the pros and cons of being a EU member.
I think it'll be better if you guys leave the EU anyway.

I think the majority of rationally minded Brexiters will acknowledge there are pros to remain an EU member, and I myself agree there are pros, BUT, these do not out weigh the cons.

At the end of the day the EU is not a sum total of its equal parts and there are too many fundamental differences between the UK and France / Germany / Belgium / Italy in terms of social and political standing (as Minty has already illustrated) to make social integration a feasible reality.

The fact that most of those who wish to remain would recoil in horror at the idea of dropping Sterling as our national currency for the Euro speaks volumes. And if we don't adopt the Euro, what's the point of further intergration socially or politically?

Xyga, my deary, a bunch of Shmuppers on a forum hardly represents much of anything Plus, you cannot judge 65+ million people one way or the other - that would be some what naive and indeed showing of undue prejudice on your part - and what's more, well the Shmups server happens to be british and indeed resides in the UK so we are good for at least a couple of things now

It is very much so about discussing the pros and cons of being a member and it is important that people investigate the subject as best they can.

Yes, indeed there are people who think as Bonus! appears to from the drivel that he writes but then there are many, and as Tarma says - the majority are rational if a little self-directed at times - as you are with your constant harpings of how the UK leaving the EU will affect of all places France - it will actually affect all countries including France but yes, the pressure would be on France as France would have to step up as the second largest contributor GDP wise but in truth it would affect all nations within the EU.

The issues surrounding the EU and as you have raised how the UK relates to the EU are actually not at all unlike the issues that befell most countries; we all have different cultures, different standards and indeed different norms and what we consider 'manners' - what passes for manners in the UK many Germans may regard as being "too polite" and, although most French in my experience are quite nice and normal people there are some right arrogant people in Paris which may give you a bad name but I forgive you We are all from different cultures and backgrounds and this is the crux of the issue: the Brits, like the Greeks, the Spanish and others dislike having to adhere to standards set by 'outsiders' - thems being the EU electorate and all those folks that we all pay for that we are told do a fine job either way just we cannot vouch for them personally. We all have a go in the UK at David Cameron "oh, isn't he a proper toff, and just look at his face" and so forth but how many people can clearly identify the members working within the EU electorate? This division is indeed divisive and it sets people off.

Now, if all was going rosy, and we were all feeling chilled out, happy, relaxed, well off financially, etc. I bet you that most people would not blink an eye but, well, you will know yourself that France and the UK have had some turmoils these last eight or so years so one could conclude from this that "some of the folks are not best pleased" - as you look at your situation and constantly tell us how the UK leaving the EU will negatively impact France, well, many of the normal Brits think similarly.

The EU is a very nice idea, it is a halcyon dream for some even, but, well, it takes time and people usually get most upset when big, dramatic things happen suddenly. It takes time, effort, planning and understanding to make a success of these very large projects - we are talking about the successful integration and dare I say it at times 'sublimation' of literally millions of people, from different cultures, some from countries with quite different economic and social models - capitalism vs. communism when we contrast Western Europe to many of the Eastern Bloc countries, or social models when we compare the Nordic Model vs. the Anglo-Saxon Model, etc. - we are talking many, many differences - often subtle and perhaps "all the same" to people looking in from the USA but still, crucially, they are 'differences' and that takes time.

I for one would hate to see the UK lose its own money as Euros are the most unimaginative Monopoloy money I have managed to find - the best money in Europe is Swiss money but the old Deutschmark was pretty cool looking

Please try not to gloss over complex situations with naive retort, Xyga - you can do better than that - I have belief in you

[Immryr]

What a load of drivel. You have said literally nothing in that post.

[BulletMagnet]

Here's one Yankee's take on the matter; I'm not in any position to offer much in terms of commentary myself, but if it's true that some of those in favor of exiting are dusting off the "unleashing the power of the free market" canard, that by itself is enough to make me very skeptical.

[Xyga]

@ Minty: wtf ? Don't make me say things I haven't because you have no idea, maybe you have missed that I haven't actually replied to your previous post...
You have too much imagination when it comes to what you believe people think or how things are in places you might not know well enough, and when you're like that you adopt a rather antagonizing patronizing/contemptuous tone (remember China). Friendly advice; don't do that, it makes you sound like an ass.

My post was to say I'm under the impression the wrong reasons for leaving are dominant in general, because I'm reading and hearing stuff I do agree with and which make the good reasons, but also lots of misconceptions, however there's really too much to argue about, many points, and reading the atmosphere I don't think whatever I'd add would change anything (not my purpose anyway, I'm not actually opposed to Brexit in case you already forgot) so this was only for the purpose of saying I'm quitting the conversation here.

I think Brexit will happen anyway, in any case it will be an interesting historical 'experiment'.

[MintyTheCat]

@ Minty: wtf ? Don't make me say things I haven't because you have no idea, maybe you have missed that I haven't actually replied to your previous post...
You have too much imagination when it comes to what you believe people think or how things are in places you might not know well enough, and when you're like that you adopt a rather antagonizing patronizing/contemptuous tone (remember China). Friendly advice; don't do that, it makes you sound like an ass.

Xyga, you have said:

Seeing the dominant mindset in this thread, and I'm afraid it reflects the country's. It is clearly not about the pros and cons of being a EU member.
I think it'll be better if you guys leave the EU anyway.

Wrong.

However, if it fails miserably and after several years the UK ends up losing many places in the 'cuntry GDP ranking' and it's the Dark Ages again, well, in this case you'd better be prepared for the "lol we fucking told you" omnirape.

You aren't helping and you are turning things into a pantomime and of course you tend to lose credibility.

Some possible future scenarios include a massive transfer of capital towards the continent, among several major EU places cities like Paris - in an ironic twist - would benefit greatly from it and France would get back its 2nd place in EU and 5th in the world in no time.
So if you leave the UK a possible consequence would be to make the French even more annoying than before.
Can you withstand such horrible fate ?

On a positive for Paris yes, but is it the Brit economy or the EU legislation that is holding France back do you feel?

I can have as much 'imagination' as my trusty brain will allow me to have. I would mark you down as being antagonising and typically you usually trickle off when debates don't go your way - remember 'China', you were acting like a high school girl and with some of your comments you are indeed patronising - the Brits at least.

My post was to say I'm under the impression the wrong reasons for leaving are dominant in general, because I'm reading and hearing stuff I do agree with and which make the good reasons, but also lots of misconceptions, however there's really too much to argue about, many points, and reading the atmosphere I don't think whatever I'd add would change anything (not my purpose anyway, I'm not actually opposed to Brexit in case you already forgot) so this was only for the purpose of saying I'm quitting the conversation here.

I think Brexit will happen anyway, in any case it will be an interesting historical 'experiment'.

could happen for the wrong reasons (xenophobia, racism, nationalism) instead of the legitimate (fucking enough of the EU's authoritarian bureaucratic nonsense/bullshit)

Yes, we are aware of your 'wrong reasons' and, well, some of us disagree - we are not all racist, xenophobics, and yes, some people have a genuine concern about some of the legislation and the effects it has on their country - be that due to national government or through the EU electorate's action.
Now, the question for you to ask yourself: am I aware enough and tolerant enough to accept that some people have a different opinion to that of my own? I have disagreed with you, please accept that and don't bother bringing up bullshit or having one of your hissy fits.

I think Brexit will happen anyway, in any case it will be an interesting historical 'experiment'.

To be fair, I would argue that the EU is more interesting and large scale 'experiment' with the UK being only one 'organ' as you noted earlier - we shall have to see either way but, well, as this thread had the original intention of; it has raised discussion at the very least.

I will say that many of the Brits on here tend to be move civil when discussing matters in this thread so you may well learn something, Xyga - stick to it you can only improve

[Xyga]

Again you're talking alone, you haven't read everything I had to say on that topic and you're fabricating and twisting my opinion.
I would suggest you'd stop putting words in my mouth while I said I quit the conversation and I really don't even have time to write worthy replies anyway.
Also I thought you had gotten better but I was wrong, you're a miserable prick, go break a leg or two.

[Immryr]

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu- ... xit-2016-6

pretty funny.

"Pro-EU MPs could even argue, ironically, that ignoring the public's will would be parliamentary sovereignty in practice — something that Leave campaigners argue has been conceded to Brussels."

haha

[CIT]

Pretty sure this Brexit referendum is gonna turn out to be a dud, just like the Scotland referendum. People tend to go with their feels when polled, but in the end vote for the devil they know.

[BulletMagnet]

John Oliver's take.

[EmperorIng]

John Oliver's take.

A stirring anti-endorsement from the "take us seriously - wait why are you taking us seriously we're just comedians lol" crowd. All of Jon Stewart's progeny have grown so sour in the last 6 years.

but if it's true that some of those in favor of exiting are dusting off the "unleashing the power of the free market" canard, that by itself is enough to make me very skeptical.

I think like anything, it's a bit specious to hone in on one groups' reasoning for such a broad decision. People can want good things for bad reasons and vice versa - though in this instance it might not be entirely a bad reason at all. What's been impressive is how the [US] media (probably UK media too) has done everything in its power to portray the Leave campaigners and their supporters as a hodge-podge of uneducated, dangerous racists who are the second coming of Nazism (tell me if that isn't the thread running through Oliver's cherry-picking video). And despite the near constant smear campaign, plus the hysterical histrionics of EU elites (the "end of Western Civilization," ha ha ha ok buddy), it still at least looks like it will be a close vote. I think as other British members have pointed out in the thread, one thing the Remain campaign seems good at is demonizing the opposition; what they are less good at is making a positive case for EU membership - has any inspiring vision come from Cameron? Corbyn? The dearth of quality decisive British leadership leaves a vacuum that is filled up by louder and stupider sorts. Is it really the best you can do to say "come now chaps, let's not be quitters shall we?"

[Immryr]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 8354470361

Yeah the British media are doing nothing but making up nasty lies about the wonderful people who want us to vote leave.......

[Immryr]

https://theconversation.com/hard-eviden ... exit-61106

[MintyTheCat]

even have time to write worthy replies anyway.
Also I thought you had gotten better but I was wrong, you're a miserable prick, go break a leg or two.

Yeah - you're not up to much by scrutiny and integrity you tend to fall pretty short

You are always quick to post in many threads and give your opinion but I don't find that you really think it through all too often.

The issue here is that we have a different point of view - which, you may find in life not just here on the forum, and you simply cannot permit that as you 'have to be right' and when you cannot argue a point you attack the other person and attempt to villify or disregard them - if you were maybe twelve years old I might understand. the difference between you and me is that I do not need to attack you personally and I am capable of discussing matters without need to lower the tone and then sulk off in a mood.

I wish you'd learn to behave yourself and act your age rather than getting all sulky and sullen - you are only upset because I hold you to what you write which are your words and not mine

[Xyga]

I don't reply to you because you're a twisted immature idiot, anywone can see who started being an ass to the other, so who'd be upset because of you ? Also again I lack time to do long posts at the moment whatever the case.
But please by all means keep on fantasizing about me, about what I think, what I feel etc, you seem hooked, we can exchange insults indefinitely if you want.

[MintyTheCat]

Also again I lack time to do long posts at the moment whatever the case.
...we can exchange insults indefinitely if you want.

You haven't got the time or the ability either way, Xyga - give it a rest
Exchanging insults is not the purpose of this thread and it would hardly be 'mature' now would it, Xyga.

Always quick to respond but not quick to think and all the while incapable of balancing an argument who then scampers off as he has 'no time' yet has all the time in the world to pass in snotty comments and generally answer pretty much ANY thread on the forum...

You can't handle my posts - let's be honest nor have you got much of anything to say on the matter, but I tell you what, if/when France decides to leave the EU we'll just copy-paste your comments here to save you the hassle

You have a good one now.

[Xyga]

God you're insane, this is hilarious. It's like you're jerking off saying my name.
Have fun but please clean up when you're done, it's disgusting.

[Immryr]

this article is pretty much in line with how I feel about this referendum. it's nothing more than another distraction tactic in the perpetual, non-linear war that is modern politics.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/21/the- ... sh-public/

[BulletMagnet]

A stirring anti-endorsement from the "take us seriously - wait why are you taking us seriously we're just comedians lol" crowd. All of Jon Stewart's progeny have grown so sour in the last 6 years.

Just in case this is something you actually need to be told, what you're supposed to take seriously is not the messenger but the message; whether it comes in the form of a published journal or a comedy bit, if there's a point worth considering it's everyone's responsibility to take it into account when forming an opinion (fun fact: "opinions" on matters of import are worthless when not taking into account whatever objective information exists). The fact that so many people, including a great number who should clearly know better, are still so clearly comfortable invoking the grade school-caliber "xyz said it in format abc, totally okay to insta-disregard!" excuse to avoid confronting perspectives they'd rather just ignore altogether is, if you ask me, a plenty compelling reason for a bit of sourness.

[By the by, not to allow one thread to bleed into another more than necessary, but if you want a real master of the "take me seriously, until it becomes inconvenient" class of political jiu-jitsu, look no further than your chosen presidential candidate: "I am absolutely the only one remotely qualified to save this nation from oblivion...but that position/statement that polls poorly? I'm Not A Politician, so nobody's allowed to hold me accountable for it! Oh, and anyone who still attempts to do so is obviously hopelessly biased against me, which serves as total justification for unilaterally revoking the press credentials of them and their outlets." If the "rhetorical escape hatch" strategy is really so distasteful to you, feel free to attempt to internally justify your enthusiastic support for its most constant and accomplished practitioner.]

People can want good things for bad reasons and vice versa - though in this instance it might not be entirely a bad reason at all.

Yet another cause for healthy skepticism, namely the "ends justify the means" approach to an issue; sure, a bunch of the promises it makes are based on proven fantasy, and a bunch of the groups in support of it are doing so for totally abhorrent reasons, but who cares so long as I eventually get the part I want?

What's been impressive is how the [US] media (probably UK media too) has done everything in its power to portray the Leave campaigners and their supporters as a hodge-podge of uneducated, dangerous racists who are the second coming of Nazism (tell me if that isn't the thread running through Oliver's cherry-picking video).

Considering that the extreme reactionary right has inarguably already been on the rise in Europe (and the USA) for a good few years now methinks this whole "screw the rest of the continent, and the planet for that matter" segment of the Brexit vote is merely a culmination of the trend rather than the cause of it; Naziism Part Deux, no. Driven by many of the same highly troubling motivating factors, absolutely.

(EDIT: And as far as the "biased media" narrative goes (and goes, and goes, and goes...), feel free to take this small matter into account.)

what they are less good at is making a positive case for EU membership - has any inspiring vision come from Cameron? Corbyn?

The essence of the case being put forth by the "stay" side of the equation boils down to "it's not a great option by any stretch, but leaving will be, in most ways, even worse." If anyone's promising the moon come hell or high water, it's the "leave" crowd - the economy will be so awesome, we'll finally be able to get rid of all the inferior cultures infiltrating ours, we'll have control over our own destiny, it'll feel so great to tell Europe to go to hell, We're Putting the Great Back in Britain yeeeeaaahhhhh.

Again, in case I really need to say it, yet another reason to be incredibly skeptical of their promises.

[CIT]

The Economist, those steadfast proponents of big government, socialist state intervention and overregulation (cough), have put forth a pretty well-reasoned argument for stay:

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/2 ... ed-we-fall