Is Islam bad?

[BryanM]

A good solid :-D for the Vokatse reference.

Or maybe 8=D is more apropos.

Also, I didn't know female circumcision was a thing. Wtf?

Google breast ironing and why it's done. After that, I've got some documentaries on human trafficking. And to finish it all off, a link to a pound's FAQ on the "Why we charge people to adopt an animal" question.

If you're not weeping in the fetal position under a table and feel like never going outside again by the end of it all, I feel like I haven't done my job.

[mosey]

In honor of this thread I shall re-read a Gore Vidal book. Rest in peace little buddy.

[Moniker]

The solution is actually pretty simple. Remove religion from politics. If they can erode religious identity in the political spectrum, there will be no reason to fight. This of course needs to be done in a respectful way, otherwise more butthurt shall ensue.

Forgive me for sounding harsh, but that sounds like a pipe dream. Hell, even in America (maybe especially?), you can't get elected unless you're demonstrably Christian. Atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and deists have no place in US politics, at least as far as I know, and at least not since the founding fathers (irony!).

Intentionally or not, you've avoided my central question: if the majority of Iraqis are religious moderates who can get along, why has the Iraqi army dissolved in the face of a radical and comparatively extremely weak Sunni/Wahhabi/Whatever ISIS really is threat? I want to believe your version of an Islamic-yet-pragmatic/secular Iraq, but headlines seem to fly in the face of it.

[mastermx]

Intentionally or not, you've avoided my central question: if the majority of Iraqis are religious moderates who can get along, why has the Iraqi army dissolved in the face of a radical and comparatively extremely weak Sunni/Wahhabi/Whatever ISIS really is threat? I want to believe your version of an Islamic-yet-pragmatic/secular Iraq, but headlines seem to fly in the face of it.

I had a friend recently come from there. And the short answer is. No one really knows. Theories abound, from poor military training, to bribery, to foreign sabotage and other theories. Even the Iraqis don't know what the hell happened.

I'm aware of the headlines. But always take them with a grain of salt. Aljazeera and other arabic news corporations are owned by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Only recently did the Iraqi government hold them responsible for ISIS. I wish I could give a definitive answer about what exactly happened. But every iraqi I've spoken to has given me a different story. Judge by what you see. The fact that only recently did ISIS execute sunni scholars proves that there's more at play here. Having saddam's old pals including his main guy izzat Al douri help lead the ISIS is an indication that this thing goes deep.

[Skykid]

Yagawa once made a Ahmed Police Batrider special version, with halal bullets.
I have the rom.

[DEL]

Islam is not bad, nor are any of the main religions.
But then again, none of the main religions are the Ruling religion.
This Isis thing is just more Zio Media nonsense. They constantly wage war against Islam with their Media.

[Ex_Mosquito]

The fact that Islam requires you to accept that a 'winged horse' flew Mohammed into 'space', without questionsing it or having any critical thinking, then yes it's clearly insane! Not forgetting if you try and change your religion then you should be put to death. Yeah right, okay.

Same goes for Christianity. How can someone pray to an all-loving God who apparently loves everyone yet a few thousand years ago he committed the biggest mass genocide of every living thing on the planet apart from Noah, his family and 2 of EVERY animal... Erm. He murdered babies in the belly of pregnant women ffs! just because he was annoyed..

Forgive and forget I guess.

I personally don't understand how someone can still be religious in 2014 and have access to the internet.

[Xyga]

Only the Easter Bunny makes sense.

[President_Obama]

"Imagine Jesus aboard the Enola Gay."

[louisg]

The fact that Islam requires you to accept that a 'winged horse' flew Mohammed into 'space', without questionsing it or having any critical thinking, then yes it's clearly insane! Not forgetting if you try and change your religion then you should be put to death. Yeah right, okay.

Same goes for Christianity. How can someone pray to an all-loving God who apparently loves everyone yet a few thousand years ago he committed the biggest mass genocide of every living thing on the planet apart from Noah, his family and 2 of EVERY animal... Erm. He murdered babies in the belly of pregnant women ffs! just because he was annoyed..

Forgive and forget I guess.

I personally don't understand how someone can still be religious in 2014 and have access to the internet.

Everyone has an irrational side. I used to be an Angry Atheist, but now I accept that everyone believes *something* that's illogical. I mean, people will broadly dismiss faith and then the next sentence will endorse laissez faire economics or tell me about chemtrails or something. Humans believe all kinds of crazy stuff and it certainly doesn't begin and end with religion, and I truly believe this kind of stuff is often compartmentalized.

That said, people I know who are religious and are intelligent tend not to be dogmatic and don't have a fundamentalist interpretation. And you know you've got a problem when someone claims they don't pick and choose what to believe from a holy book, because that's what everyone does, fundamentalists included.

[BryanM]

That reminds me that the scene that appears in Exodus, with the idol of Nanna... in the Quran the gold calf MOOS. I always loved that part.

Re: Fundamentalists tend to follow the letter of the book better than the hippies. "God hates ______" is a pretty accurate assessment when the book says we have to stone/set on fire all ______.

[Lord Satori]

My favorite is when they talk about "The Wrath of God" even though wrath is supposed to be one of the 7 deadly sins.

[Moniker]

The fact that Islam requires you to accept that a 'winged horse' flew Mohammed into 'space', without questionsing it or having any critical thinking, then yes it's clearly insane! Not forgetting if you try and change your religion then you should be put to death. Yeah right, okay.

Same goes for Christianity. How can someone pray to an all-loving God who apparently loves everyone yet a few thousand years ago he committed the biggest mass genocide of every living thing on the planet apart from Noah, his family and 2 of EVERY animal... Erm. He murdered babies in the belly of pregnant women ffs! just because he was annoyed..

That's an interesting component of the question. Are the holy texts themselves ethically sound? As far as Judeo-Christianity goes, I'd say the Good Book is pretty bad. Won't even bother discussing the Old Testament... it's rife with horrible shit. The Gospels are pretty sound, ethically. Jesus being the original hippie and hyper-pacifist helps. Can't think of much off-hand that offends. But either way, Christians are still saddled with the Old Testament. The rest of the New Testament I'm not as familiar with, except the batshit crazy Book of bloody revenge that is Revelations. Don't expect that there are many religions that accept only the Gospels as canon.

Haven't read enough of the Koran to make an informed judgment. Read it from the beginning for about an hour and got pretty bored... lots of context-free railing against hypocrisy. I don't like hypocrisy either, but meh. Will have to make an effort to make it to the more engaging bits, as well as study up on the Pauline books of the Bible.

[Moniker]

Re: Fundamentalists tend to follow the letter of the book better than the hippies. "God hates ______" is a pretty accurate assessment when the book says we have to stone/set on fire all ______.

Quoth Mark Twain:

There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory as it is—in our country particularly and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree—it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime—the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of to-day, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor his Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilled.

[evil_ash_xero]

I have a number of problems with Islam. Or perhaps it's followers? Or culture? I dunno....

Any time you actually discuss what you don't like about it, people call you racist or xenophobic.
But I guess I'll go ahead and bite.

The way they treat their women is awful. And I have a very liberal friend(I'm liberal as well) who will act as if men beating their wives in the U.S. or whatever cancels this out. But that's nonsense. Their laws towards women aren't only ancient, they can be quite brutal.
I don't know what ancient Christian laws are like, but I would be surprised if a woman got raped, that SHE would be blamed for it. I would be surprised if this was law at any time in western Christian culture. But even if it was, it certainly isn't now.
And this doesn't even take into account the Hijab, no being allowed to drive, and all the other bonkers rules they have to keep them down in many many Muslim countries. Now, whether this is to blame on the religion or the culture, I don't know. I just know it happens in a lot of Muslim countries.
And there is the massive amounts of female circumcision in some Muslim countries. Once again, this may just be some kind of cultural problem. I don't think there's any text in the Quran where it says to circumcise women.

The way they treat gay people, and people of other faiths. This goes without saying. Being gay is illegal in many countries, and you can be killed for it in many countries as well. Now, this was the case in most Christian nations, and in some today(like in Africa). This is more of being "behind the times". So, I can't exactly blame this on Islam. But many Islamic countries are like this today.
In some countries converting to Christianity is punishable by death(I don't think a lot though). Christians are also treated pretty bad in a lot of these countries. What makes a lot of Westerners cringe, is when you see Muslim peoples in European nations rioting over their "bad" treatment. At least they can practice their religion. And I would say they are treated quite well in these countries.
Once again, Christians did the same thing in the past(let us not forget the Holocaust), so it's a "behind the times" thing.

Ok, so basically a lot of intolerance. That's a big problem. And I am fully aware of the the Muslims getting massacred by Buddhists in Burma and some other places. I'm talking about Western nations, so obviously these folks are "behind the times" as well.

The other big problem is all the extremists. Now, this can actually be blamed on the texts(or those who actually take them literally). There's quite a few passages about killing the Infidel, and how the Infidel is not equal to a Muslim.
Once again, there are many violent passages in the Old Testament, but not in the New Testament.
And also, people don't tend to do what it says in the Old Testament. I doubt you'll find many Christians killing people because they are working on the Sabbath.

This goes to your basic terrorist, to people who riot over a cartoon. Can you imagine Christians or Jews in the Western world rioting over a cartoon? And I don't mean protesting. I mean rioting. Like big time.

And let's state the obvious. Why do most people not say stuff about Islam? Because they are SCARED to. And why are they scared to? Because there are enough Muslims that are willing to kill someone who Blasphemes. They can be very scary people. People are afraid of them.
So, they're not going to get a lot of my sympathies, when they are behaving like that.

Anyway, I'm liberal, but they're too intolerant for me. Which sounds funny, but it makes sense in my head.

And this isn't about specific individuals, as there are plenty of nice Muslim people. But I think the culture and texts result in some pretty bad stuff.
Let us look at the Muslim world, and it's laws in THEIR countries, and not where they are a minority. It's pretty awful stuff.

And that's probably all I'm gonna say about it, unless someone jumps all over me for what I said.

[BulletMagnet]

Jesus being the original hippie and hyper-pacifist helps.

The "pacifist" part is somewhat debatable (at least when you get into the "he just forgives everybody for everything, no matter what" interpretation of Jesus that some seem to have adopted), since he spoke plenty about how the wicked would end up on the business end of God's judgement, but it is true that he didn't exactly live up to the expectations of those who thought the Messiah would start kicking Roman kiester as soon as he arrived.

Liberal bastard that I am, I always appreciated that the only time (IIRC) Jesus is recorded as physically acting out against someone is when he drives the predatory businessmen out of the temple; even against the hypocritical religious leaders, his most frequent target, all he ever did was speak. But when it came to the sellers of sacrifices setting up where they shouldn't have been and charging extortionate prices for their wares, he quite literally flipped tables and used a rope to whip them until they fled. TWICE. Naturally, this particular part of his legacy is very seldom highlighted.

[Lord Satori]

There's also something that wasn't even mentioned in (i.e, it was banned from) the bible, where he pushed a child off of the roof when he was a kid.

[Moniker]

But when it came to the sellers of sacrifices setting up where they shouldn't have been and charging extortionate prices for their wares, he quite literally flipped tables and used a rope to whip them until they fled. TWICE. Naturally, this particular part of his legacy is very seldom highlighted.

What book, chapter, and verse is this? I'm genuinely interested. It definitely wasn't covered in catechism.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Can you imagine Christians or Jews in the Western world rioting over a cartoon?

Not in a developed industrial nation, no. But I can easily see Christians somewhere in Central African Republic stringing your ass up on a lamp post if you make fun of their faith.

Religious fundamentalism in what you refer to as Western world receded under the advance of major social and economic improvements in the everyday life of the common people - something that obviously hasn't been the case in the countries with institutionalized Islam.

As soon as you stop viewing religion as the cause and realize that it's actually the result, things will become much more clearer. The main reason an individual would feel inclined to turn to a religion is for the perceived comfort and consolation that it offers, to escape the harsh reality of his everyday existence. The worse someone's living conditions are, the more likely they are to get invested in religious fundamentalism and react violently towards what they consider as blasphemous in respect to their beliefs. In this sense, religion is quite literally "the sigh of the oppressed creature".

The Danish cartoonist knew full well of what significance the prophet Muhammad was to millions of oppressed people in Islamic nations, but he still went ahead with the cartoon and the "free press" was all too happy to pick up and print the provocative garbage without taking into consideration what reaction it was bound to invoke.

And there is the massive amounts of female circumcision in some Muslim countries. Once again, this may just be some kind of cultural problem.

No. It's called ignorance and illiteracy. Improvements in healthcare and education will make such backward practices disappear.

And I would say they are treated quite well in these countries.

They most certainly aren't. They are socially marginalized and oftentimes forced to live in very secluded areas with European governments doing next to nothing to provide them with social lifts and help them with integration into society.

Anyway, I'm liberal...

Well, economic liberalism is the primary reason for the pitiful state of things in many of these nations(and this includes religious fundamentalism and all socially backward practices and beliefs in general), so...

[evil_ash_xero]

Alright Comrade.

The first huge chunk of stuff you commented on I actually expected someone to respond like that...that's why I kept posting "behind the times" and stuff like culture.
Obviously a lot of it is cultural. Since I'm not an expert, I am not sure how much the religion has to do with it, and how much is just cultural. In these countries, it seems to bleed together, and it's hard to know what's what. Especially to someone who isn't an expert on the Quran. And of course, there's what's exactly in the Quran, and what is told to them by their clerics.

But seriously, you want to tell me that Muslim immigrants in Europe and North America have it worse that Christians in Islamic countries?

And so what if the cartoonist knew he was going to get grief for that? That's not the point. The point is how crazy Muslims can and will react to something like that. To most people in the 21st century, it's unacceptable. And in my opinion, if they are guests in the nation that have let them in, rioting over a cartoon is not the best way to say "thanks for letting us get out of our cruddy countries, and live in this nice Western country".

And to a lot of people who defend their culture, I think they would have a nervous breakdown if they had to move there, and had no way back. And for the reasons I have mentioned, and for the reasons they'll defend. It's oppressive and backward. Especially towards women.

[Eno]

Won't even bother discussing the Old Testament... it's rife with horrible shit. The Gospels are pretty sound, ethically. Jesus being the original hippie and hyper-pacifist helps. Can't think of much off-hand that offends. But either way, Christians are still saddled with the Old Testament. The rest of the New Testament I'm not as familiar with, except the batshit crazy Book of bloody revenge that is Revelations. Don't expect that there are many religions that accept only the Gospels as canon.

Regarding the Old Testament, do take a look on Ecclesiastes if you haven't already. Some pretty brilliant stuff(for its time, I guess) on the human condition in there.

[BIL]

I liked the bit where that big Jewish dude took a swing at Jesus, and Jesus's Way of the Compassionate Face Breaking Fist made the guy's fucking arms break around his own torso, ouch! It's right before his first fight with Raoh, after he kills all those Muslim dudes to break out of their jail.

[Skykid]

Alright Comrade.

The first huge chunk of stuff you commented on I actually expected someone to respond like that...that's why I kept posting "behind the times" and stuff like culture.
Obviously a lot of it is cultural. Since I'm not an expert, I am not sure how much the religion has to do with it, and how much is just cultural. In these countries, it seems to bleed together, and it's hard to know what's what. Especially to someone who isn't an expert on the Quran. And of course, there's what's exactly in the Quran, and what is told to them by their clerics.

But seriously, you want to tell me that Muslim immigrants in Europe and North America have it worse that Christians in Islamic countries?

And so what if the cartoonist knew he was going to get grief for that? That's not the point. The point is how crazy Muslims can and will react to something like that. To most people in the 21st century, it's unacceptable. And in my opinion, if they are guests in the nation that have let them in, rioting over a cartoon is not the best way to say "thanks for letting us get out of our cruddy countries, and live in this nice Western country".

And to a lot of people who defend their culture, I think they would have a nervous breakdown if they had to move there, and had no way back. And for the reasons I have mentioned, and for the reasons they'll defend. It's oppressive and backward. Especially towards women.

The key word in Jon's response is 'education', or lacl thereof.

[Lord Satori]

lacl

*lack

Anyway, religion is full of atrocities wherever you look, particularly in books like the bible. I wish I remember the psalm number but I remember hearing that one of them goes like "blessed is a man who smashes his child's head against a rock" or something close to that. That one left me in a state of utter confusion. I don't think any sort of context would warrant a statement like that.

And then we have the story of how Abraham tried to kill his own son because "God told him to" (read: he was a zealous murderer) and when his attempt failed it was somehow interpreted as "Wow, this whole thing was a test of faith. God spared his life." There's also that guy who's life was supposedly ruined by God as a "test of faith". I could go on an on...

I'm not familiar with the Muslim texts, but I'm sure there's an equally ludicrous amount of stories like this in it.

[evil_ash_xero]

The key word in Jon's response is 'education', or lacl thereof.

Well, if you mean me...I had a high school education in West Virginia. So, I can't be held accountable for anything I say or do.

If you mean Muslims....well, yeah. The more educated, the more toned down they get. Still, you get stories about Muslim doctors in the U.S. and Europe joining the Jihad. So, there's obviously something pretty compelling about Islam to make a doctor strap a bomb to himself.

[BulletMagnet]

What book, chapter, and verse is this?

A quick look finds the first such occasion in John 2:13-16, while the second is recounted in Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, and Luke 19:45-46. I might've missed a mention or two, it has been awhile, heh.

[Skykid]

The key word in Jon's response is 'education', or lacl thereof.

Well, if you mean me...I had a high school education in West Virginia. So, I can't be held accountable for anything I say or do.

Lol, of course I don't mean you!

lacl

*lack

Appreciate you correcting me on that obvious typo, I do tend to struggle with words over three letters. I'll forward Samsung your sentiment and tell them their touchscreen keyboard functionality has been called into question.

[mastermx]

"thanks for letting us get out of our cruddy countries, and live in this nice Western country".

Not when the West has some involvement in the bombing, exploitation and invasion of said "cruddy countries".

The whole premise that people should be grateful to other people for letting them pass through arbitrary lines is foreign to me. Because that's exactly what it is. This whole idea of nations and races will soon die. Imaginary lines are as absurd to me as certain religious beliefs.

[NTSC-J]

I wish I remember the psalm number but I remember hearing that one of them goes like "blessed is a man who smashes his child's head against a rock" or something close to that. That one left me in a state of utter confusion. I don't think any sort of context would warrant a statement like that.

Psalm 137:9
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Admittedly, it's hard to see how that one might be interpreted in a positive light.

[BryanM]

But when it came to the sellers of sacrifices setting up where they shouldn't have been and charging extortionate prices for their wares, he quite literally flipped tables and used a rope to whip them until they fled. TWICE. Naturally, this particular part of his legacy is very seldom highlighted.

What book, chapter, and verse is this? I'm genuinely interested. It definitely wasn't covered in catechism.

Here's a proper link.