Shmups you really want to like but can't

[trap15]

Because omg treasure

[nosorrow]

Yeah, probably. They're okay I guess, but they try way too hard most of the time. To me, Treasure's like a very poor man's Nintendo EAD (without the quality control): lot more misses than hits.

P.S. Nice avatar, lol, even though I enjoy Dodonpachi and Donpachi (even on the Saturn!).

[gs68]

Iridion II. More fair than its predecessor, which isn't even a 2D shooter, gorgeous visuals and soundtrack, nice weapon variety, but...
- Scoring. I know that the point of the accuracy bonus is to prevent "fire forever" syndrome, but it also makes every weapon except two of them completely useless. The charge shot multiplier is freaking annoying too.
- A hitbox the size of Russia. Too many times I get destroyed because I thought I had enough room to slip past a bullet or under a structure as it scrolloed near the bottom of the screen, but didn't. To me the hitbox feels not ship-sized, but slightly bigger than that.

[Squire Grooktook]

Mars Matrix: I really do want to like this game. It's obviously fantastic. But something about it just prevents me from getting into it or really having fun when I play it. I dunno what. I don't like the art style or the music, but I've seen and heard worse in games that I like, so I doubt that's it.

R-Type Delta: Maybe it's just that trial and error difficulty is more jarring for me now that I'm not a kid and have more stuff to do than just grind a game for hours on end when I first got it, but it just seems like such a chore to figure out how to survive admist all the "puzzle shooter" sections. I like R-Type 3 and the first one, but I just can't get into this one.

Hellsinker: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the whole game is based around milking bosses endlessly, and you won't even get to see half the cool stuff in the game if you don't play it with the right mindset.

M.U.S.H.A: Even on hard mode, the game just feels really uneventful until you either lose a power up and have to deal with a clusterfuck recovery, or get to the very end of the game.

The Tales of Alltynex: I should have known from the "emphasis on destruction" that it wouldn't be my thing, but none of the games really jump out at me as all that exciting to play (for me). Still willing to give them another chance though.

with a dose of Raiden(snipers) and Gradius(nothing but memorization and checkpoints).

Gradius is not a memorizer at all. There's like, maybe ONE gimmick you MIGHT have to know about in advance every few stages, but other than that you can pretty much play by reaction. Honestly, Gradius is one of the few "traditional" (read: not a danmaku or manic shooter) games besides Rayforce that I feel has really transferable skills and isn't just learning how to muscle memory through everything.

[Trevor spencer]

radiant silvergun and ikaruga , great graphics and atmosphere but i just find the games boring

[gs68]

Gradius V.

It certainly has that epic (in the traditional sense of the word) feel, the soundtrack is great, and it provides some of the most advanced option control in the series, but stage variety feels a bit lacking (every stage besides 4 can be described as "mechanical shit with some sort of different gimmick each time"), weapons are decent but nothing mindblowingly fun to use, and one loop is way too long (90 minutes for a typical run, Jesus Christ). The massive hype around it certainly doesn't help. It's not a horrible game--I'd much rather play this over shovelware such as Sine Mora and Raptor: CotS--but it's not a game that I would put in my top 10 list of shmups, if I even cared to organize one and take it seriously.

Then again the fact that I'm quite biased towards Gradius Gaiden, which I got about 3 months after V, might have something to do with it.

[wiNteR]

Hmm I don't know, maybe I am a treasure fanboy or something that I have to defend their games, but this game would rank very high in a top 25 list for me (though I have never made one). Lets look at the good things and not so good things about this game.

For the first loop the game length does hurt because the first few stages become a bit too easy after you learn them. But I guess that is why it is better to spend more time on stage select first (and practice later stages).

Not including an option to start from any higher loop hurts the replayability a lot. That is sort of the biggest problem I have/had with the game. I am not sure why that kind of option wouldn't be included. Stage select only allows you to play till end of a level (also the unlocking part in itself is tedious), which can give some limited replayability though I suppose.

As for variety, I think it is a reasonable complain. But still, there is a good bit of difference in stages.
1 space
2 and 3 - corridors
4, 5 - different from all other stages
6 and 7 - look similar to 2 and 3 but play quite different. 6 is entirely different. 7 has whole lot of variety.

So yeah, there is truth to lack of variety complaint visually, but from perspective of stage design the amount of variety is excellent.

Also the number of good things are so many to list. Not punishing you ridiculously for a death. Some excellent boss battles, and not not mention many of them. Truly, the game shines in its boss battles. Also, I think the game excellent music (more in terms of how it suits the game and individual levels).

My only complaint from the perspective of design/balance would be that perhaps it would be better to have suicide bullets in higher loops slightly faster than they are. That's just a perceptions based on videos though, I only played the first loop when I had the game.

[Squire Grooktook]

So yeah, there is truth to lack of variety complaint visually, but from perspective of stage design the amount of variety is excellent.

This a million times over.

I mean yeah, I'm sad that the stages aren't reskinned to have a jungle and a volcano and all those other diverse Gradius locations. But at the end of the day it's the actual content that matters.

One of the original programmers for the first few Gradius games said that "variety" was all about forcing you to change tactics with each new challenge. And while Gradius V may not have quite as many gimmicks, the core of the game (the enemy placement, the environments, the few unique stage hazards, the bosses) all force you to change tactics a lot, so the game doesn't feel like it has any shortage in variety to me in the least. Even if it's not as visually interesting.

As for the "beginning is too easy on first loop" you could really say the same about any Gradius game. I personally prefer to just bump up the difficulty to v.hard or something at that point.

Honestly, in my opinion Gradius V is Treasures best game hands down. It has everything that was cool about RSG and Ikaruga but none of what was bad about them (except MAYBE the length which is subjective. Personally I love the feeling of exhaustion you get on clear).

[Meseki]

The Gradius series would definitely be one I've tried to like but failed. Though the only ones I've really played more than a few times are Gradius Galaxies, Gradius V, and Otomedius Excellent (which I only rented), the more I play them, the more I hate the punishment for dying, as it feels that unless I die on a boss or late in a stage, the stage I first die on will be the one I usually get a game over on.

I also tried to like Raiden DX, but the medal system is annoying, and it's a little annoying that the purple laser at max firing rate is just so much better than anything else (for survival, at least).
Mushihimesama is also annoying to play, as Original has no scoring system, and Maniac is so confusing that I forget all of the important stuff too easily. It also doesn't help that I'm not good enough to really do any scoring techniques until the stage 2 mid-boss, and the best I've done in either mode is getting to the stage 3 boss (which may have only been on Original).

Ikaruga gets a special mention because I know it would be mentioned if I had actually managed to play it again (now that I actually have any form of skill); the scoring system just looks like something that would really annoy me.

[royalfan84]

Dodonpachi Res- I can't say I don't "like" it but I must say I was very disappointed. I bought this game knowing it was more about the scoring than anything else. I just am not a fan of overall gameplay...I instantly enjoy it at first yet am left empty after awhile...it's like a game built soley on the desire for "sidequests", "extras", and "religious perfection". I understand why some would welcome that. But honestly I'm a bit disappointed. Feels shallow to me.

[BrianC]

Super Real Darwin - Interesting concept (ship that powers up with DNA and evolves into a more powerful one), but one that ultimately hurts gameplay (yay, I have a huge hitbox now!)
Project S-11 - Technically impressive for GBC, but fails by being too much like similar games (huge lifebar, unavoidable shots, unbalanced powerups)

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

Strikers 1945 series. The music sucks (unforgiveable for a shooter) and shooting stuff never feels awesome since your shot is comparatively weak and enemies don't explode in a loud and impressive way. Also the "collect medals when they flash" system is not fun.

These tracks would like to have a word with you:
Strikers 1945 II- Dam Buster http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpHnUap5NWY
Strikers 1945 II- Devil's Tower http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siwfJgcFYKI
Strikers 1945 III- Turn Red (Russia) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N13jug0oMbA
Strikers 1945 III- Another Side (Warp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VxePBsd ... ature=plcp
Also, judging from the fact you don't like flashing medals, I'm assuming you don't like Raiden DX either.

I also tried to like Raiden DX, but the medal system is annoying, and it's a little annoying that the purple laser at max firing rate is just so much better than anything else (for survival, at least).

It's all about precise timing, which I understand is not for everyone, and the purple laser is actually the worst weapon for survival (or anything for that matter) (red spread shot is the ideal choice).


As for me, the ones I can't get into are Battle Garegga (after many plays, it just has a "meh" appeal, I honestly don't see what the big fuss is and why everyone thinks it's the greatest shmup ever made lol), Metal Black (too many cheap deaths and a boring weapon system, and the fact that I hate horizontal shmups), 1942 & 1943 (these are just too slow for my taste), Fire Shark (I find Flying Shark to be much better in my opinion), Twin Cobra 2 (Same thing, I find the original Twin Cobra to be far better), and the original Truxton (It's just too bland, etc.)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Strikers 1945 III- Turn Red (Russia) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N13jug0oMbA
Strikers 1945 III- Another Side (Warp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VxePBsd ... ature=plcp

No, sorry, but they're really not that good. The instrumentation and quality are, if anything worse than 1945 II. It sounds like Psikyo used low-quality midi or something to make the music.

Gunbird's soundtrack isn't the greatest in terms of sound quality, but it sounds a lot richer than strikers 1945 III does. Still, it's not what I'd call great in terms of a soundtrack, especially compared to other shmups, I've never thought any of Psikyo's soundtracks really were fantastic though. Keep in mind, Strikers 1945 III was made in 1999, and compare it to other shmup soundtracks of games made that year, and it simply doesn't compare (Battle Bakraid, Blazing Star). Even something like Akuu Gallet made a few years before manages to sound much more distinctive and higher quality.

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

Every Cave game except Ketsui. Ketsui is fun because it's not weighed down by excessive scoring mechanics present in almost every other Cave game. Bullet hells in general are so damn homogenized and straight forward these days with nothing interesting like stage hazards anymore.

Salamander/Life Force is another one I could care less for. I do dig Salamander 2 though.

[Squire Grooktook]

Bullet hells in general are so damn homogenized and straight forward these days with nothing interesting like stage hazards anymore.

Honestly, I used to think this way, but after actually...you know...playing some bullet hell shooters I realized how off I was.

I mean compare Exceed 2nd, Gundemonium Trilogy, Eschatos, any Cave game, any Touhou game, Mars Matrix, Radiant Silvergun, etc. Not one of them feels the same as the others on even a base level IMO. The "all bullet hell shooters play the same" thought is really just a result of people playing nothing but Cave on Mame and nothing but Touhou on pc, so as a result they think that Ikeda's unique style and Zun's unique style (which are both actually kinda sorta similar in some respects IMO) are the only things out there.

Environmental hazards are nice and all, but just having tight level structures accomplishes the same thing. Besides, how many non bullet hell verticals didn't have environmental hazards? Like all of them except maybe 2 or 3?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ketsui is fun because it's not weighed down by excessive scoring mechanics present in almost every other Cave game.

Uhhh, empty locking? Significant score/chip system changes in omote/ura loop? Really, it's far from Cave's 'simplest' scoring system, the pointblanking mechanic gets changed once you're in one of the loops, whereas something like Galuda or Donpachi the scoring mechanics don't suddenly shift in the loop. I'm not really sure what qualifies as 'excessive' here, a lot of their systems are fairly simple like Futari Original. Even stuff like AK Shin aren't really that mystifying, and Cave's a company that tries to be known for having thought-out scoring anyways.

Bullet hells in general are so damn homogenized and straight forward these days with nothing interesting like stage hazards anymore.

Jamestown? DFK's much hated laser wheels (or even just the sections with lasers you need to block)? Strania? Ikaruga's stages? Marine Benefit (good Touhou fangame) that has a boss with a bubble mechanic that forces you to move within a constrained area or die (by drowning I guess) if you move out? You make a lot of generalizations that aren't really supported. Sure, there's not as many games out there that combine Gradius-style stage dangers and dense bullet patterns, but saying there's nothing interesting out there whatsoever is simply incorrect.

Simply hating on Cave by making broad, unwarranted generalizations isn't really valid criticism.

[nasty_wolverine]

I think Ketsui's scoring system feels simpler than other cave games is because you can freestyle quiet a bit and still get a good score. Unlike DDP/DOJ where one mistake can lead you to reset/restart and ruin a whole run. its not too strict on timing or routing. thats why its so fun.

BTW I am talking about 1-loop/Omote, getting to Ura can lead some one to go mad.

[gs68]

The Gradius series would definitely be one I've tried to like but failed. Though the only ones I've really played more than a few times are Gradius Galaxies, Gradius V, and Otomedius Excellent (which I only rented), the more I play them, the more I hate the punishment for dying, as it feels that unless I die on a boss or late in a stage, the stage I first die on will be the one I usually get a game over on.

That's why I've been recommending Gradius Gaiden; the rearrangable power meter means you can maximize your powerup-to-capsule efficiency (e.g. by putting Option as the 1st or 2nd slot). Of course, there are people who argue that it's wrong and breaks tradition, but I'm all for violating tradition a little if it means adding more balance.

It along with ReBirth are two of the few games in the series that actually bother to do anything to subsequent loops besides "make enemies fire more".

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

Ketsui is fun because it's not weighed down by excessive scoring mechanics present in almost every other Cave game.

Uhhh, empty locking? Significant score/chip system changes in omote/ura loop? Really, it's far from Cave's 'simplest' scoring system, the pointblanking mechanic gets changed once you're in one of the loops, whereas something like Galuda or Donpachi the scoring mechanics don't suddenly shift in the loop. I'm not really sure what qualifies as 'excessive' here, a lot of their systems are fairly simple like Futari Original. Even stuff like AK Shin aren't really that mystifying, and Cave's a company that tries to be known for having thought-out scoring anyways.

Bullet hells in general are so damn homogenized and straight forward these days with nothing interesting like stage hazards anymore.

Jamestown? DFK's much hated laser wheels (or even just the sections with lasers you need to block)? Strania? Ikaruga's stages? Marine Benefit (good Touhou fangame) that has a boss with a bubble mechanic that forces you to move within a constrained area or die (by drowning I guess) if you move out? You make a lot of generalizations that aren't really supported. Sure, there's not as many games out there that combine Gradius-style stage dangers and dense bullet patterns, but saying there's nothing interesting out there whatsoever is simply incorrect.

Simply hating on Cave by making broad, unwarranted generalizations isn't really valid criticism.

Fair enough. It's kind of a list of grievances but bare with me. Let's me reiterate.

It's not so much hating on Cave but "Cave-styled" bullet hells introduced the tradition of robbing satisfaction of just beating the game away from the player if you don't focus on scoring. It's kind of why I love/hate Ketsui knowing it's pretty much a career path just to ACTUALLY beat the game (Ura loop/EvacDoom). I respect people that put time into some of these games but I rather just play something based on stage memorization and mainly improvisation and reflexes to get through. I think that's why I enjoyed stuff like Gradius, Battle Garegga and Ibara. I did enjoy Guwange a lot because it was really different mechanically and aesthetically. I don't know how to really explain it but it's really frustrating to play games that are so fun to play because of mechanics or whatnot (Mushihimesama Futari) but the game doesn't want the player to ever get that feeling that they accomplished anything.

Basically I wish more contemporary bullet-hells adopted the straight forward mentality of survive, beat the game, loop it for more challenge instead of being Ghosts N' Goblins (which I despise). That shit is for the birds.

Also I forgot about Ikaruga and Strania. Those are games are kind of unique though. I'd say people could argue that they are more puzzle/danmaku games than simply bullet hells with stage hazards. I'm not budging on this one though because stage hazards truly aren't even as relevant anymore in most shmups namely vert-scrollers. That Touhou example that you posted was pretty interesting and I WISH I saw more unique things like that.

In regards to Ketsui, the scoring mechanic changes in later loops and strategies change for sure but the general concept of "proximity" based scoring is so easy to understand. Titles are like DOJ are not only hard to grasp but they are hard as nails. That's why I come here to read about it and understand it...and I'm still scratching my head.

[trap15]

No, sorry, but they're really not that good. The instrumentation and quality are, if anything worse than 1945 II.

It's interesting. The 68000 based Psikyo hardware and the newer SH-2 based hardware both use the same sound chip, but they used better samples on the old hardware. Compare the instruments on Strikers 1945 and Strikers 1945 II to make that immediately apparent (it's particularly striking to listen to the OST release, which has them back-to-back).

I have to say, I really like most of Psikyo's music, but I can definitely fault the instrumentation for why people don't. I think the actual composition is fantastic, which is why it's such a shame. I like shitty sampled instruments though, so I actually don't mind the instrumentation.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also I forgot about Ikaruga and Strania. Those are games are kind of unique though. I'd say people could argue that they are more puzzle/danmaku games than simply bullet hells with stage hazards.

Ikaruga definitely gets referred to as having puzzle mechanics. Strania, not so much, it has a few stage gimmicks, but its invulnerability mode (used both for safety and scoring) help make it much less frustrating, though it has a couple tunnel sections without any bullets (you can't even shoot) where it's purely about dodging walls. I think the reason you don't see many stage hazards coupled with dense patterns is that it'd be just way too complicated. The dense patterns are supposed to be the stage hazards, after all.

Deathsmiles I and II both sort of qualify for stage hazards I guess. There's sections in like the volcano where lava waves rise up, or sections where snakes travel along the walls and take up a ton of the screen, so the risk of running into an enemy could be seen as a stage hazard. Deathsmiles II also has threats like falling chandeliers, but a lot of the stuff in both games you can shoot to clear away, and the bullets are normally the main threat.

It sounds like you'd prefer stuff like early Toaplan works, or trap15's Mr Stoic Ketsui hack that basically makes scoring simple and lets you focus purely on killing and survival. Really, sometimes in a run I just like to play however and only score actively enough to get any extends in the game, it's more of a relaxing run than anything.

I have to say, I really like most of Psikyo's music, but I can definitely fault the instrumentation for why people don't. I think the actual composition is fantastic, which is why it's such a shame. I like shitty sampled instruments though, so I actually don't mind the instrumentation.

Some of the tracks sound like they could be really good if the instrumentation and sound quality had been better, I think you're right that if they'd bothered to put a bit more focus on the music hardware they could have been more noteworthy for their music, really is a shame.

[Domino]

Raiden. It's those tanks that shoot you in the back.

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

Raiden. It's those tanks that shoot you in the back.

The solution is simple; memorization and tap-dodging.

[Captain]

pulstar,too hard and too easy at the same time...

also ikaruga,just too boring.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's not so much hating on Cave but "Cave-styled" bullet hells introduced the tradition of robbing satisfaction of just beating the game away from the player if you don't focus on scoring.

Uhhhh, what? Why? Just because it has a lot of depth and a high skill ceiling doesn't mean that it's not satisfying to clear it based on survival. Kind of a try hard mentality if you ask me. I mean, does Gradius "rob" you of satisfaction just because you know there are guys out there who can take it to loop 255?

If that's not what you're saying, I apologize, but Cave isn't any easier than any other shmup developers output, so I don't see why a survival clear should be any less satisfying.

[Bananamatic]

guys why the fuck am i still playing einhander

its awful but i cant stop playing it

[n0rtygames]

So I don't see why a survival clear should be any less satisfying.

Cave clears can be incredibly satisfying! Apart from Novice modes which for some reason don't seem to offer the same amount of satisfaction for me personally but they may for some.

You should ditch the idea that a 1cc is worthless. My preferred way is to play for a 1cc and score simultaneously when I start a game. I like scoring, I like surviving. Sometimes I end up not doing either particularly well and all I end up doing is dying/restarting. This means it takes me longer to clear a game, sometimes months.. maybe even years. Doesn't matter. End result is the same - hype as hell after the first clear, fist pumping and pelvic thrusting around the place.

Not everyone plays like this, most people don't condone even playing with this approach. Don't really care though. My game time.. my fun time. Will play with my toys how I see fit. Even if it means I occasionally slip in to Stage 1 hell (and by occasionally.. I mean a lot! )

edit: missed a word ;p

[dunpeal2064]

I actually find Cave clears more satisfying, since you get the gratification of clearing the game, but the opportunity to pour more hours into the game and get even more out of it. When I got my first Futari 1.5 clear, I shouted, "Fuck you Larsa" and danced in my living room. A year later, when I got a score high enough to make top 5 on the boards here, it felt like I cleared it all over again... and yet again, I danced.

I still have not danced my last Futari-victory dance.

(I'm sure this applies to other score-mechanic heavy games... I just haven't cleared any of those)

[Trevor spencer]

So I don't see why a survival clear should be any less satisfying.

Cave clears can be incredibly satisfying! Apart from Novice modes which for some reason don't seem to offer the same amount of satisfaction for me personally but they may for some.

You should the idea that a 1cc is worthless. My preferred way is to play for a 1cc and score simultaneously when I start a game. I like scoring, I like surviving. Sometimes I end up not doing either particularly well and all I end up doing is dying/restarting. This means it takes me longer to clear a game, sometimes months.. maybe even years. Doesn't matter. End result is the same - hype as hell after the first clear, fist pumping and pelvic thrusting around the place.

Not everyone plays like this, most people don't condone even playing with this approach. Don't really care though. My game time.. my fun time. Will play with my toys how I see fit. Even if it means I occasionally slip in to Stage 1 hell (and by occasionally.. I mean a lot! )

Sounds like you play in the same way as me

[spadgy]

Sounds like you play in the same way as me

And me. I am a little beguiled by the 1CC, but while pursuing a 1CC I'll always play for score, as that's when I find shmups most rewarding. Playing purely for survival misses out the part of a shmup that I enjoy most; learning and exploring the scoring mechanics. Just focusing on survival and passing over the scoring mechanics feels like you're not getting the most out of it, I feel. I do, however, envy those that can focus just on survival until they are capable enough to then start focusing on scoring. Sometimes focusing on scoring from day one is a recipe for disaster!

And if extends are involved, playing for score is playing for survival (for me at least!), which I love. However, if a game is one I adore, but one I have put too much time into and am started to get frustrated by, once the 1CC comes I can just put it aside. The 1CC lets me feel I beat the game. The score reflects how capable (or incapable!) I am.