Devil May Cry 5

[mortified_penguin]

I spent most of last week rolling my eyes at paid reviewers savaging Strike Suit Zero because the carrier they were supposed to be escorting didn't dodge the torpedoes they couldn't be bothered to intercept.

Implying Strike Suit Zero doesn't have horrendous levels. Adore the concept but the missions are beyond bullshit.

Anyway, on topic. I like Ninja Theory, I like how they handle combat and characters. Needless to say, I'm enjoying it. Sorry the 'ruined' the guy who did nothing but make stupid jokes and eat pizza.

[Mischief Maker]

I spent most of last week rolling my eyes at paid reviewers savaging Strike Suit Zero because the carrier they were supposed to be escorting didn't dodge the torpedoes they couldn't be bothered to intercept.

Implying Strike Suit Zero doesn't have horrendous levels. Adore the concept but the missions are beyond bullshit.

Anyway, on topic. I like Ninja Theory, I like how they handle combat and characters. Needless to say, I'm enjoying it. Sorry the 'ruined' the guy who did nothing but make stupid jokes and eat pizza.

RE: SS0

Those extra bonus objectives to unlock stat upgrades? They're actually a running tutorial. When Mission 2 makes shooting down torpedoes a bonus objective, that was a not-so-subtle hint that shooting down torpedoes is going to be your job for the rest of the game. Not letting yourself get distracted away from priority objectives by random fighters or target of opportunity space crates is a core skill in space sims. Don't like it? Go back to Freelancer, noob!

RE: DMC5

I bet you thought Kirk Cameron in Growing Pains was cooler than Fonzie, too.

[mortified_penguin]

Not letting yourself get distracted away from priority objectives by random fighters or target of opportunity space crates is a core skill in space sims. Don't like it? Go back to Freelancer, noob!

How about all the other priority objectives that can't be bothered to do more than sit there and get shot to pieces? Can't be two places at once. You're clearly Mr. Fancypants SpaceCap'n Topshot Esquire, and for that I salute you. However, the rest of us are not happy about playing a space sim that really is nothing more than glorified tower defense with a transformation gimmick.

[Mischief Maker]

How about all the other priority objectives that can't be bothered to do more than sit there and get shot to pieces? Can't be two places at once. You're clearly Mr. Fancypants SpaceCap'n Topshot Esquire, and for that I salute you. However, the rest of us are not happy about playing a space sim that really is nothing more than glorified tower defense with a transformation gimmick.

You mean why isn't that Space Carrier nimbly dodging and jinking all over the place like real life aircraft carriers?

Isn't this a shmup forum? Celebrating some of the most difficult games of all time? Where seeing later levels is a reward for hard work instead of an expectation?

A friend of mine has a theory that the reason escort missions are always cited as a "bullshit" play mechanic is that it gives gamers something to blame their failure on besides their own skills.

So you say because your job is to shoot things that makes SS0 a tower defense game? I suppose that's about on the level with Rock Paper Shotgun saying this game is like an MMO because it displays mission objectives in the upper-left corner. (Hint! Hint!)

No wonder you're coming to the defense of DMC5. Mash the buttons at random for a while and "Hooray, SSS, you are greatest beat up game player!"

[mortified_penguin]

I consider it tower defense because if I don't sit right in from of the Arcadia in strike mode, it seems to get blown to hell in three seconds flat while I'm off doing something else mandatory. There is a very clear line between challenge and straight up bad mission design. Yeah, you can beat it but in the end, if it's considerably more frustrating than fun, what's the point?

Back to the topic at hand here, please don't presume to know how I play DMC. Yeah Yahtzee button mashed his way to success, doesn't mean every else did. Is the game too easy? I've yet to finish my first playthrough on Nephilim but I think it's safe to say yes. Is the rank broken now? Absolutely but from day one of the series I never cared about that. Is the control and combat solid? That's where my priorities lie.

Camera is a little iffy in tight spots but the combat is oh so sweet, the characters are well voiced and believable, the environment is fun to watch rip itself apart, and hey, I don't mind the music either. I'm having fun, (oh lawdy imagine that!), while playing it. That, good sir, is why I'm defending it.

I enjoy challenge as much as the next guy but the day you're more concerned with your bragging rights than the fun you had, you need to stop gaming.

[Mischief Maker]

I enjoy challenge as much as the next guy but the day you're more concerned with your bragging rights than the fun you had, you need to stop gaming.

Video games without challenge are like a Syfy channel original movie that's 10 hours in length or longer. Even Michael Bay would call that unnecessarily bloated!

Instead of wasting your life with unchallenging pellet-dispensers, why not just watch bad movies instead? You'll add 8 extra hours to your life every title! If you're really entranced by DMC5's story of spunky teenagers telling supernatural monsters "Fuck You!" you're gonna love Blade 3: Trinity!

[mortified_penguin]

Fair enough. You're clearly more interested in entertaining yourself than having a legit discussion. There is a certain level of fanboy where people seem to lose all objectivity, glad I've yet to fall into such trappings.

[Mischief Maker]

Fair enough. You're clearly more interested in entertaining yourself than having a legit discussion. There is a certain level of fanboy where people seem to lose all objectivity, glad I've yet to fall into such trappings.

Before pointing the finger, ask yourself, "What have I written on this thread that is conducive to a legit discussion?"

Let's just focus on SS0 for a moment. I pointed out a clear weakness in the pro reviewers' gameplay (don't prioritize torpedoes) and your response is that the level design is "bullshit." THAT's Objective! I start putting out feelers to try and figure out what exactly you find bullshitty about SS0 and you say, "It's tower defense." It was like pulling teeth to get you to finally admit your (incorrect) strategy of picking off torpedoes by positioning yourself in front of the carrier in Robot Mode.

FINALLY we've reached a baseline level of information to have a legit discussion. Now I could take the time to explain the weakness in your strategy and how to do better. But as you astutely pointed out, being entertained is more important to me than putting all the effort into squeezing a legit discussion out of you, Mr. "please don't presume to know how I play DMC!"

Already on this thread I've described the difference in mechanics and design philosophies between the DMC games in the series. I've posted videos that show the lack of challenge and the broken style system in DMC5. I've given multiple side-by-side comparisons of previous games being more creative in the design and setpiece department.

If you want to have a legit objective conversation (I bet you really don't) you're going to have to give more than nonspecific adjectives like "sweet," "believable," or "solid."

[mortified_penguin]

Nah, no taking the highroad all of a sudden. You're either the guy calling me a noob or the one having a legit back and forth. Pick one.

Regardless, want me to break it down? Sure.

I think the combat is 'sweet' because pretty much all the classic moves seem to be there, the helm breaker, stinger, etc, along with being able to switch weapons on the fly by holding a specific trigger. It all flows really well and it's a lot of fun chaining it all together. I already agreed that rank IS busted, but again, that never meant a thing to me. Stylishly bashing my way through hordes of creepy baddies did, and guess what? Still can do that in DMC no problem.

I believe the control is 'solid' because I don't find myself fighting the camera or struggling to target specific enemies in the crowd. The dodge is nice and responsive and overall it always feels like I have total control over what I'm seeing and how I'm moving about the environment.

Say what you want about Ninja Theory but they certainly make 'believable' characters. The slight mannerisms in the character models, the, (mostly), well done voice acting, etc, it all comes together and I find myself, (for once), not cringing every time someone in this series opens their mouth. Is it perfect? Nah. That succubus fight was over the top for sure but really, Dante is how I'd expect an abandoned, pissed off youth to act. Reckless and immediately standoffish. It's not Shakespeare but for a game about a cocky bastard fighting demons, it's really not bad at all. And yes, I am giving it a bit of slack considering it's an origin story. Already in this game you see him calming down a bit and being more a hero and less a brat. If a sequel rolled around and he was older and still acting that way, I'd be just as unhappy as everyone else.

I know everyone has 'that series' that they will fight tooth and nail for, (you should have seen me when Fallout 3 first released), but when people are telling me DMC2 is way better than this reboot and I'm a piece of shit for liking it, that's a bit much. All I see is a totally competent reimagining of a series being bashed by a slew of people who haven't even tried it and other 'fans' shielding their eyes and running around going 'na-uh'.

As far as Strike Suit Zero goes, yeah, I went about that one all wrong. So for that outburst I do apologize. That discussion doesn't belong here though. You want to make a topic about it, sure, I'll voice my concerns there.

[Mischief Maker]

Nah, no taking the highroad all of a sudden. You're either the guy calling me a noob or the one having a legit back and forth. Pick one.

Regardless, want me to break it down? Sure.

I think the combat is 'sweet' because pretty much all the classic moves seem to be there, the helm breaker, stinger, etc, along with being able to switch weapons on the fly by holding a specific trigger. It all flows really well and it's a lot of fun chaining it all together. I already agreed that rank IS busted, but again, that never meant a thing to me. Stylishly bashing my way through hordes of creepy baddies did, and guess what? Still can do that in DMC no problem.

I believe the control is 'solid' because I don't find myself fighting the camera or struggling to target specific enemies in the crowd. The dodge is nice and responsive and overall it always feels like I have total control over what I'm seeing and how I'm moving about the environment.

Say what you want about Ninja Theory but they certainly make 'believable' characters. The slight mannerisms in the character models, the, (mostly), well done voice acting, etc, it all comes together and I find myself, (for once), not cringing every time someone in this series opens their mouth. Is it perfect? Nah. That succubus fight was over the top for sure but really, Dante is how I'd expect an abandoned, pissed off youth to act. Reckless and immediately standoffish. It's not Shakespeare but for a game about a cocky bastard fighting demons, it's really not bad at all. And yes, I am giving it a bit of slack considering it's an origin story. Already in this game you see him calming down a bit and being more a hero and less a brat. If a sequel rolled around and he was older and still acting that way, I'd be just as unhappy as everyone else.

I know everyone has 'that series' that they will fight tooth and nail for, (you should have seen me when Fallout 3 first released), but when people are telling me DMC2 is way better than this reboot and I'm a piece of shit for liking it, that's a bit much. All I see is a totally competent reimagining of a series being bashed by a slew of people who haven't even tried it and other 'fans' shielding their eyes and running around going 'na-uh'.

One of the most illuminating things I've ever been told is that the opposite of love is not hatred, it's indifference. Love and hate are just passion put through the positive or negative filters. This is why someone who is passionate about music will have an all-consuming love for certain kinds of music and a fiery hatred for other music even though the two sound the same to the casual listener who just taps his foot to whatever is on the radio.

Clearly you don't have the same passion for these kinds of games that I do because you're holding a pretender to the throne of Devil May Cry to the same standard as, say, a God of War game. You beat people up good and look good doing it and that's enough for you, who cares about this style system, who cares about references to Dante's Inferno, who cares about the difficulty level? It would be like trying to explain to a casual shmup fan that Jets 'n Guns is nowhere close to Crimzon Clover in terms of quality, you'd still shrug your shoulders and say, "but I don't care about that nerdy shit, I just want to blow stuff up!"

As far as Strike Suit Zero goes, yeah, I went about that one all wrong. So for that outburst I do apologize. That discussion doesn't belong here though. You want to make a topic about it, sure, I'll voice my concerns there.

That topic is here.

[Obiwanshinobi]

God of War was significantly above standard: the camera and controls were exceptionally good and the God/Titan difficulty levels were not just challenging and commonly namedropped for cool points; those were commonly PLAYED. It's easy to make your game hard, but to make people play it on such a difficulty level isn't.

[mortified_penguin]

I'm not some casual who just wants to feel like a badass for buttonmashing but neither am I the kind of guy who has the patience for S ranking a game like Bayonetta. if being in that middle ground means my opinion doesn't matter, well then ok. I'll let the internet hive-mind hate-bubble gnash their collective teeth.

[Mischief Maker]

God of War was significantly above standard: the camera and controls were exceptionally good and the God/Titan difficulty levels were not just challenging and commonly namedropped for cool points; those were commonly PLAYED. It's easy to make your game hard, but to make people play it on such a difficulty level isn't.

Just as I'm sure more people have beaten Jets 'n Guns at hard difficulty than have even unlocked Unlimited mode in Crimzon Clover.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I doubt Jets'n'Guns was really popular. The music was.
Since God of War was released in very early years of the genre, I think Uridium would be a more fitting comparison. Then again, Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks and The Red Star brought much needed co-op to the table, which makes the genre even less exclusively Japanese.

[Mischief Maker]

Since God of War was released in very early years of the genre, I think Uridium would be a more fitting comparison. Then again, Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks and The Red Star brought much needed co-op to the table, which makes the genre even less exclusively Japanese.

God of War came out about the same time as Devil May Cry 3. Maybe a couple months later. I won't argue that GoW was the prettier of the two, but the gameplay was never that great.

I mean, jesus, here's a two part advanced combat tutorial for DMC4 Dante (who is basically DMC3 Dante with fewer weapons and the ability to switch styles on the fly). The number of combinations is insane! God of War had, what? 3 set combos, all of them ending with the signature "slam blades into the ground and lava spurts up" finishing move? Not in the same league by a longshot.

And here is a SSS run against the final boss of DMC5.

Why are you people disputing that DMC5 is a huge step down in quality? Get angry at capcom for bilking you out of $60 by giving this game a title synonymous with amazing games, don't get angry at me (and the internet hive mind) for pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes!

Want a serious quality debate? Which game was better, Devil May Cry 3 or God Hand?

[Obiwanshinobi]

God of War doesn't have the sort of cancels DMC3 has (nor has it anything like issen of Onimusha), but it has blocking/countering/deflecting and the magic that, once levelled up, make for a fairly nuanced system. Playing on higher difficulty settings takes experimenting and tactics. That it all does not break apart on God/Titan is quite a feat. If it was standard for the year 2005, I wonder what else was standard like that. For my money it was too soon to talk about any standard at all.

[Mischief Maker]

God of War doesn't have the sort of cancels DMC3 has (nor has it anything like issen of Onimusha), but it has blocking/countering/deflecting and the magic that, once levelled up, make for a fairly nuanced system. Playing on higher difficulty settings takes experimenting and tactics. That it all does not break apart on God/Titan is quite a feat. If it was standard for the year 2005, I wonder what else was standard like that. For my money it was too soon to talk about any standard at all.

Dude, I beat God of War's higher difficulties and it did not compare.

God of War is what I call a "Battletoads Boot" game. In the game battletoads, your attack combos were basically a low damage buildup to a flashy move, such as when you do a finishing kick and your toad suddenly sprouts a steel-toed boot. The "slam the blades into the ground and lava shoots up" move was the Boot for Kratos. Blocking an enemy's attack and countering just let you do that finisher instantly instead of preceding it with 3 or 4 low damage wind-up moves.

There was no tactics to the magic. Poseidon's lightning storm (the first spell of the game) was the only magic worth leveling up. You float in the air pounding a button as lightning zaps everything on the screen. The other spells were garbage and a waste of orbs. Zeus' other lightning spell looked nifty from a design standpoint, but unless the game had archers out of range there was never a reason to touch it.

Have you even played DMC3 or God Hand?

[Obiwanshinobi]

I did play DMC3 and God Hand, although the latter has more in common with Onimusha than either DMC3 or God of War (tank controls).
Optional weapons and magic are considerably more useful in God of War II than they were in I. The spell that latches bolts of lightning onto enemies, then makes them explode (I can't remember the name) and the spear are a pretty useful combo for example.
There's no denying that mere button mashing is pretty effective in God of War, but so it is in DMC3 (again; Cerberus can be defeated with just Ebony, Ivory and some rather basic dodging). God Hand is very unlike either in that respect too. Wouldn't be surprised if dodging in God Hand turned out to be derived from God of War, though.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Wouldn't be surprised if dodging in God Hand turned out to be derived from God of War, though.

Dodges are handled rather differently in God Hand than God of War, DMC, Bayonetta, etc. While backflips give you a lot of invulnerability frames, they are incomparable to the speed at which rolling dodges functions in those other games and prevent you from easily getting back close to the enemy afterwards to attack. Backflips are more for dodging the powerful, wide area attacks that you can't otherwise evade. High level God Hand play actually relies more on knowing when to duck high attacks and countering with the duck + triangle sweep special, or sidestepping and attacking. Duck/sidestep cancelling on attacks to repeatedly High Side Kick juggle is also very different in terms of execution compared to those other games.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sure thing, the dodging works different, but you perform it with the right thumbstick, is all.
The most essential difference, methinks, is that button mashing in God Hand is not nearly as exploitable as it is in DMC3. Instead, running around is. Which makes me think of Blood Will Tell (where you could also perform dash with double tap). I'm almost certain that if pressing L3 for dash isn't an option in God Hand, it's because Blood Will Tell played this way killed off too many joypads (I was lucky to get warned early in the day).

[Mischief Maker]

I did play DMC3 and God Hand, although the latter has more in common with Onimusha than either DMC3 or God of War (tank controls).
Optional weapons and magic are considerably more useful in God of War II than they were in I. The spell that latches bolts of lightning onto enemies, then makes them explode (I can't remember the name) and the spear are a pretty useful combo for example.
There's no denying that mere button mashing is pretty effective in God of War, but so it is in DMC3 (again; Cerberus can be defeated with just Ebony, Ivory and some rather basic dodging). God Hand is very unlike either in that respect too. Wouldn't be surprised if dodging in God Hand turned out to be derived from God of War, though.

I'll take your word for it about GoW2. Never played it.

God Hand's dodging is derived from Mike Tyson's Punchout.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Last time I checked, SNES pad didn't have two analogue sticks, but I wouldn't be surprised if some other boxing game did it before either. The only ones I played were Hajime no Ippo games and I can't remember how it was handled on the PS2.

[Paradigm]

I'm almost certain that if pressing L3 for dash isn't an option in God Hand, it's because Blood Will Tell played this way killed off too many joypads (I was lucky to get warned early in the day).

I'm almost certain you're 100% wrong about that, sans the "almost" part.

[Edmond Dantes]

Back to the topic at hand here, please don't presume to know how I play DMC. Yeah Yahtzee button mashed his way to success, doesn't mean every else did. Is the game too easy? I've yet to finish my first playthrough on Nephilim but I think it's safe to say yes. Is the rank broken now? Absolutely but from day one of the series I never cared about that. Is the control and combat solid? That's where my priorities lie.

I enjoy challenge as much as the next guy but the day you're more concerned with your bragging rights than the fun you had, you need to stop gaming.

See, the casual perspective is all fine and good, and I acknowledge people who don't give a shit might enjoy New DmC regardless.

That being said, I too feel like the "casual" perspective is usually not a good one to take. A casual gamer might not see anything wrong with, say, a Siren sequel that plays like a standard survival horror game, or a Mario Kart game with no items and realistic physics. But if you don't see what it is that makes these games unique and worth playing, you're missing the bigger picture.

Let me put it like this:

Imagine you're a kid, and you only have two toys. The kid across the hall has thirteen. Then one day an adult comes, takes away one of your toys and gives it to the kid across the hall. Why the hell does that kid need your toys when he's got plenty of his own? That's the situation here. Why the hell did gamers who don't care about style or rank need DMC when there's already plenty of games suited to their tastes? So now people who have a particular appetite that's only satisfied by DMC's unique flavor are screwed, all so people who already have plenty of alternatives can have another game.

I think DMC fans are right to whine in this circumstance.

I mean, you love DMC on a casual basis. Good for you. The problem is, there's already plenty of games for you--even the old DMC games themselves. What DMC5 does is gives itself entirely to you and leaves nothing for us, while the old ones could always be played both ways and thus, satisfy everybody.

[mortified_penguin]

It's all about context.

I sold my last console about two years ago, It's not easy finding good action games on PC, and DMC was a gift out of the blue from my younger brother via Steam. (Which was a hell of a surprise but that's another story). So hey, awesome, it should have been a win/win all around.

But nope.

I can't fire it up for five minutes without someone on Steam, (or hell, even my girlfriend walking by, who never played the series), throwing some kind of little fit over it. Never mind all it's strengths, lets bitch about hair color or Vergil's hat or something else mundane. Lets dance around the actual gameplay and shake our fist at the jacket Dante is wearing. (To be fair the main gripe here is mostly the ranking system so you guys get credit for that, but this shit goes on everywhere. I can't even sign into a model building forum I regular without seeing it).

I was gifted a game and I liked it, why do I feel like I did something wrong? The sheer entitlement someone people seem to have about this is what's killing me. Your series was going down the drain for years, and don't act like every other game in the series wasn't a turd. You don't like the reboot, totally ok but don't throw the word casual around and act like the rest of us don't matter since we aren't burning an effigy with you.

[Mischief Maker]

It's all about context.

I sold my last console about two years ago, It's not easy finding good action games on PC, and DMC was a gift out of the blue from my younger brother via Steam. (Which was a hell of a surprise but that's another story). So hey, awesome, it should have been a win/win all around.

Are you kidding me??? I could understand you getting upset at being told the game was garbage if you invested 6 miserable working hours' worth of income to buy this game, but you didn't even pay for it? If your younger brother sent you a copy of Trainz Simulator 12 would you be vehemently defending it on this board, too?

I agree there's a paucity of brawler style games on the PC, but it's not like you have to eat dogfood on this platform. Here's a few options off the top of my head:

Devil May Cry 4 (not even a port, it was developed in a PC environment, and it's superior to the console versions. Sadly can't say the same for the DMC3 PC port)
Streets of Rage Remake
Hammerfight
Lugaru HD (And eventually Overgrowth once they finally finish in 2073)

Your series was going down the drain for years, and don't act like every other game in the series wasn't a turd.

Until now DMC2 was the only crap game in the series. DMC4 was a misstep, but falling short of DMC3's greatness still puts it well above average for the genre, especially the aftergame.

Don't crap in my mocha and call it chocolate, and don't put Heavenly Sword 2 on my PC and call it Devil May Cry!

[mortified_penguin]

I'd have the same exact opinion of the game had I payed for it myself, just saying it spoils the experience even more when people make a fuss. I'd like to enjoy my birthday gift now kindly stfu. (to everyone on Steam). Now had he sent me a copy of Stone Quarry Simulator, yeah I'd rip you guys apart for it.

I know DMC4 is on PC but I had my PS3 copy on ebay about two days after it came out. Sorry, the combat might have been fine but the rest was not for me.

Either way, said what I had to say, we're never going to agree on this so why keep at it. Sorry you guys didn't get the sequel you wanted but hey, with the sales of DMC now neither will I. Guess we're even.

[Mortificator]

You don't need to apologize to DMC4, DMC4 needs to apologize to you. There's nothing in it that the original game and DMC3 didn't do better.

[Mischief Maker]

You don't need to apologize to DMC4, DMC4 needs to apologize to you. There's nothing in it that the original game and DMC3 didn't do better.

Bloody Palace.

Here is a review of DMC5 by a high level DMC3&4 player who pretty much sums up this entire thread.

[Bananamatic]

You don't need to apologize to DMC4, DMC4 needs to apologize to you. There's nothing in it that the original game and DMC3 didn't do better.

The camera was much better than in DMC3