Redux (DUX 2) (DC/iOS/Steam), Trailer up - PC Demo out

[psoslayer]

It's now funded with 649 pledges @ $53,121.

[Friendly]

I see you edited your post

I was being friendly; someone who considers this release to be on the same level (quality/cost) as officially licensed console retail releases of two of the best commercial shooters of the past decade is clueless.
As I've said elsewhere, opinions can be wrong. This was one such case.

[psoslayer]

I was being friendly; someone who considers this release to be on the same level (quality/cost) as officially licensed console retail releases of two of the best commercial shooters of the past decade is clueless.

... nobody did that, but you.

But still, it's commercial. And the aim is to get licensed.

[Friendly]

I was being friendly; someone who considers this release to be on the same level (quality/cost) as officially licensed console retail releases of two of the best commercial shooters of the past decade is clueless.

... nobody did that, but you.

Did you read the same thread as I?

An "overpiced" XBox 360 DVD-9 and CD of "Mushihimesama HD Limited Edition" goes for US$128.90 over at NCSX and over at Solaris Japan you can find a new Dreamcast Border Down Limited Edition (1 GD-ROM + 1 CD) for US$201.35. So US$100 for recent limited edition release or US$65 for a standard release in a highly niche genre (i.e. very limited customer base) is not out of line.

But still, it's commercial. And the aim is to get licensed.

Not the Dreamcast version, which was sold for via this kickstarter for $65/$100. It isn't licensed (hence no DC logo), has no age classification and since it's directly shipped by its maker, there are no retail costs. Which is why there is really no justification for such a high price. Especially if you take into consideration that this is

a game destined for mediocrity (if even that).

[psoslayer]

But still, it's commercial. And the aim is to get licensed.

Not the Dreamcast version, which was sold for via this kickstarter for $65/$100. It isn't licensed (hence no DC logo), has no age classification and since it's directly shipped by its maker, there are no retail costs. Which is why there is really no justification for such a high price. Especially if you take into consideration that this is

a game destined for mediocrity (if even that).

A license and an age classicfaction is what justifies a high price? LOL whut. I don't pay for license, I pay for games.

But remember, the kickstarter is there to afford devkits, age classification, license etc.

[Friendly]

But still, it's commercial. And the aim is to get licensed.

Not the Dreamcast version, which was sold for via this kickstarter for $65/$100. It isn't licensed (hence no DC logo), has no age classification and since it's directly shipped by its maker, there are no retail costs. Which is why there is really no justification for such a high price. Especially if you take into consideration that this is

a game destined for mediocrity (if even that).

A license and an age classicfaction is what justifies a high price? LOL whut. I don't pay for license, I pay for games.

But remember, the kickstarter is there to afford devkits, age classification, license etc.

Ok, just like your friend HydrogLox you too just demonstrated blissful ignorance regarding the composition of retail prices.

If you bought a game in the run-up to Christmas and it cost £39.99 to buy, approximately £7 (17.5 per cent) went on VAT (that figure increased to 20 per cent as of 4th January), while £10.50 (27 per cent) went to the shop and £12 (30 per cent) to the publisher.

The rest goes on what's called cost of goods: the nuts and bolts of videogame publishing. 65 pence (two per cent) goes on distribution, £1.75 (four to five per cent) on marketing, and an £8 (20 per cent) licence fee goes to the platform holder (Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony). All these costs are paid for by the game's publisher. If a third-party is behind the game, approximately £3 goes to the developer, or 25 per cent of the publisher's revenue after deductibles, although developers are often paid in a series of advances as they meet milestones.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011- ... go-article
As for why Japanese retail games are even more expensive: Foreign exchange rate.

[psoslayer]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011- ... go-article

Yeah, but that article is about regular editions but this is a CE. It will raise up in value with time. If you buy it now, you can sell it later for more. It's also EXLUSIVE to kickstarter and was only avilable for about a month. It's a very rare item already.

[bcass]

I'm a backer as well, and while I see your point, there's also the Xbox Indie category as well; $5 is a pretty fair price, and far, far worse has been made available on the service for the same price in the past...

Oh sure, XBLIG is an option, but the amount of expose that XBLIG releases get compared to XBLA games is the difference between night and day. Anyone can publish on XBLIG, there's no age classification and no Live certification required. I suppose they could go down the Playstation Mobile (formerly Playstation Suite) route too if Sony don't play ball.

[HydrogLox]

Ok, just like your friend HydrogLox you too just demonstrated blissful ignorance regarding the composition of retail prices.

You are simply exhibiting consumer myopia. Most regular physical mainstream releases start at $59.95 though the quality is all over the place regardless of how expensive or cheap it was to develop them - frankly most games are not worth that amount of money. And mainstream franchises aren't going to fade away because most of their price drops happen long after they have recouped their expenses. But STGs/Shmups are not part of the mainstream. Therefore each unit sold will have to recoup a lot more of the overall development cost. If you are looking for "value for money" then you shouldn't even consider spending US$96.90 on the regular Mushihimesama HD. Buying it later used doesn't count as that does not support Cave. Any mainstream gamer will tell you that it's insane to spend more than 800 MSP on any Shmup. The problem is that if you are a STG enthusiast you realize that "value is in the eye of the beholder" - so US$96.90 for Mushihimesama HD is actually a killer bargain - who wants to be filling their closet with PCBs (or more to the point, who could afford to). So giving money to something like Redux may prove to be a "waste of money" but at least the backers are trying to actively support their favorite genre.

It will raise up in value with time. If you buy it now, you can sell it later for more.

Unfortunately there is no guarantee for that - also I'm dubious that a DC version of Redux will ever materialize; I'll be pleasantly suprised if it does. I think simply Dux 1.5 and a Redux OST for the backers will be considered a mild success.

[mrsmiley381]

I am glad the Kickstarter was a success. Hopefully they can convince the programmer to do the extra level despite it not being in his contract. I always look forward to new Dreamcast games. It reminds me of when games were for people who liked games.

I would also like to kindly ask Friendly to fuck off. Too much negativity. Not enough discussion or speculation.

[Op Intensify]

I would also like to kindly ask Friendly to fuck off. Too much negativity.

Negativity spurs people to change and improve things. He's been rightfully skeptical. Kickstarter has huge potential to become a scammer's heaven. If people don't show a willingness to think twice about these often questionable projects they're sometimes plonking down three, four, or even more figures to support, there's going to be a lot of furious backers, broken promises, and unbridled greed.

I don't think this game looks bad, but there's no way you can argue that it's above the level of a doujin project. The lock-on mechanic is rather thoughtless, and graphics/sounds/stage designs are typical Euro-shmup mediocrity. I also don't understand why the developers need so much money, if Locomalito was able to make the amazing freeware shmup Hydorah without a development team and a budget of zero dollars. Sure, there's licensing fees and the like, but it should not cost thousands just to add a ship.

If this was only a $10~$15 PC digital download, I'd probably buy it. But as things stand, I am highly suspicious of these people and will not be supporting them.

[psoslayer]

I would also like to kindly ask Friendly to fuck off. Too much negativity.

Negativity spurs people to change and improve things.

No. Only constructive criticism can change IMHO.

I don't think this game looks bad, but there's no way you can argue that it's above the level of a doujin project. The lock-on mechanic is rather thoughtless, and graphics/sounds/stage designs are typical Euro-shmup mediocrity. I also don't understand why the developers need so much money, if Locomalito was able to make the amazing freeware shmup Hydorah without a development team and a budget of zero dollars. Sure, there's licensing fees and the like, but it should not cost thousands just to add a ship.

Most doujins games look like shit. Only a few have nice graphics like Kamui and Chrimson Clover or Trouble Witches. Hydorah was quite bland Eurohmup though, and played mediocre at best. Redux however looks like a spiced up R-Type with proper scoring mechanics, hyper soaking and lock-on feature, highly detailed HD graphics etc.. That makes it quite uniqe among R-Type clones. And all that on ALPHA status.

Sturmind looks more impressive though.

I also don't understand why the developers need so much money, if Locomalito was able to make the amazing freeware shmup Hydorah without a development team and a budget of zero dollars. Sure, there's licensing fees and the like, but it should not cost thousands just to add a ship.

LOL It took him 5 years to make the game, no?

You simply can't compare hobby projects with pro projects, as hobbiest have as much time as they want to finish the game. Last Hope, Hydora, Cave Story, Sturmwind all took about 5 years to develop AFAIK. I won't wait 5 years to get a co-op mode. Also how do you care if the dev team needs more money to do that if the retail price of the game is the same?

I'd get your point though, if I had to pay extra for co-op etc.

[HydrogLox]

I also don't understand why the developers need so much money,

In the world of software development $50,000 doesn't get you much, especially if it needs to be "commercial grade" - even if it is "just a game". While it may be able to pay the bills for a single individual for a while there are different elements even in an STG that tend to require disparate talents. A competent programmer is a good start but you also need a competent composer/performer for the music and an excellent game designer to arrive at a quality product. It is extremely rare to find all these traits combined into a single person - I doubt that there are any single person projects at Cave, G.rev and the like. No amount of money can guarantee the success of a software product - but an insufficent amount of money will kill it everytime.

if Locomalito was able to make the amazing freeware shmup Hydorah without a development team and a budget of zero dollars.

LOL It took him 5 years to make the game, no? You simply can't compare hobby projects with pro projects, as hobbiest have as much time as they want to finish the game.

No budget doesn't mean no effort. To determine the effort (cost) you need to find out what the indivduals could have gotten paid at their day job for an hour and multiply that by the hours they poured into the project. Once you give up your day job to do this stuff you better make sure that your sales recover that effort otherwise you are not getting paid - and you might as well stick to your day job.

It's wonderful that some people can and do give away their labours for free - however it doesn't pay their bills and it skews perception of the actual cost of creating these games. Having to hold down a day job while creating the game can delay it to the point of irrelevance.

On a different note - what is a bit disconcerting is that KTX Software Development seems to be working on "The Haunted: Hells Reach" and it seems to be targeted for "XBLA/PSN" and it is not released yet - I wonder how that will impact the projected release schedule for Redux. Furthermore the page banner shows an iPhone but other than that there is no trace of iOS development experience. I am skeptical about the July release of the iOS version - unless they are planning to release each stage separately for $0.99. I hope they are not trying to charge $11 like "Darius Burst SP" or expect "Angry Birds" type of sales - that just won't fly.

[psoslayer]

On a different note - what is a bit disconcerting is that KTX Software Development seems to be working on "The Haunted: Hells Reach" and it seems to be targeted for "XBLA/PSN" and it is not released yet - I wonder how that will impact the projected release schedule for Redux. Furthermore the page banner shows an iPhone but other than that there is no trace of iOS development experience. I am skeptical about the July release of the iOS version - unless they are planning to release each stage separately for $0.99. I hope they are not trying to charge $11 like "Darius Burst SP" or expect "Angry Birds" type of sales - that just won't fly.

Yeah, I don't believe it will come at july on iOS as well... there seems to be delay. I dunno about Haunted though, all I know it was released on Steam and it did pretty good. Oh and good call about iOS pricing, the most successful games on iOS was cheap. I paid 11USD for Darius Burst SP and I was dissapointed.

[Bee Cool]

After reading this thread I'm almost certain psoslayer is being payed to watch this thread. This looks like a really obvious money grab, and nothing about this game looks remarkable or worth the money. It's really sad how people are so willing to spend a ton on these games just because it's a shmup.

[HydrogLox]

This looks like a really obvious money grab, and nothing about this game looks remarkable or worth the money.

You could be right and somebody could be going off to a nice vacation right now ...

But I'm a bit surprised at the perception that $50,000 is a lot of money in this business. Here is some background on KTX Software Development's previous effort "The Haunted: Hell's Reach": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJdT1Z8yft0&t=0m55s

• It started as an Unreal mod.
• They got 1st place in the "Make something Unreal" contest awarding them $50,000 and a commercial license. They could have probably done anything with the money - but it was probably intended as a development grant to capitalize on the commercial license. Unreal was the one who decided on the prize money and they probably have a pretty good idea of the money required to take a mod to a full game - even for a lean and mean startup indie company.

The following is total speculation on my part but the $10,000 funding stage increments have absolutely nothing to do with with the content of the DC reward.
As I see it all of the raised money will go to KTX Software Development for the development of the iOS title while René Hellwig maintains creative and designer control. René Hellwig is solely responsible, in his spare time - hobby project style, for the completion of the DC version of Redux - as a "Thank You" to the backers. So each funding goal actually creates more work for him personally in return for more money that he could use to finance the iOS title (and software projects always need more money). Development of the PC and potentially XBLA title is entirely dependent on the proceeds generated by the iOS title. If the iOS version bombs - no Steam or XBLA version. Now whether it makes any sense to go all the way to XBLA is another matter - it is not like "R-Type Dimensions" had Irem rolling in royalties.

It's really sad how people are so willing to spend a ton on these games just because it's a shmup.

I was under the impression that this was a site for STG/Shmup enthusiasts. Enthusiasts tend to spend their money on what they are enthusiastic about. If you are just an enthusiast because it is free ... well lets not go there.

By the way there is a donate button at the top right of this page.

[Ghegs]

and nothing about this game looks remarkable or worth the money. It's really sad how people are so willing to spend a ton on these games just because it's a shmup.

I disagree. The mere concept alone (R-Type -esque game with a scoring system) is enough to pique my interest. And RHE isn't some totally unknown, never-heard-of-before developer so it's doubtful he'd just take the money and run. If the game is good, as I of course hope it will be, I will have no regrets spending $65 on a game (two, actually, with shipping included) that is likely to hold my interest far better than Yet Another Cave Shmup because this is the style of shmup I prefer. If it's not, I can always sell the game.

I do wish the game would've been confirmed for a PC release with that option being one of the pledge levels, but eh. Also the stretch goals were in kind of a weird order, I think extra stage, then extra ship and then two-player support would've been better.

[Bee Cool]

I was under the impression that this was a site for STG/Shmup enthusiasts. Enthusiasts tend to spend their money on what they are enthusiastic about. If you are just an enthusiast because it is free ... well lets not go there.

By the way there is a donate button at the top right of this page.

Being an enthusiast doesn't mean you eat up every title that is released in the genre. I love arena shooters, but I sure as hell don't think every game that comes out is worth the money or even good. There is a world of difference between liking a genre and throwing money at anything in the genre. You're literally making the argument that enthusiasts should be buying and donating to every cause in their field of interests, and that's just dumb.

I don't know why you would think I play these games because they are free, these games are among the most expensive. If you honestly think that the fact that I don't deem this game worth my money is somehow proof that I don't buy my games then you seriously need help.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I am more than happy to support someone making a game I like the look of (and a sequel to a game which, though flawed, I rather enjoyed) and who still make a physical release out of it (on a console I own, too).

I too would take an extra stage over an extra ship, because it's surely easier to balance an extra stage than it is an extra ship.

[lilmanjs]

ohh boy. I can't help but read through this thread and keep seeing that this is still being thought of as a sequel to DUX. its the same game pretty much redone(DUX that is). I know somebody posted an interview in here about Redux, and that's how it is described in there.

[HydrogLox]

Also the stretch goals were in kind of a weird order, I think extra stage, then extra ship and then two-player support would've been better.

From a consumer's point of view, yes. But lets face it, an extra 25% of funding can let one sleep alot better at night and an extra ship isn't that much extra work. But an extra stage is a heck of a lot more work - but it was an unlikely goal to be met while it was a great carrot to get at least enough people on board to meet the first stretch goal.

You're literally making the argument that enthusiasts should be buying and donating to every cause in their field of interests, and that's just dumb.

No I have not. This is about the notion that it's cheap to develop and publish STG/Shmups - it is not. Everyone for themselves has to decide whether it is worth the expense and the risk to fund a kickstarter project. Ultimately you have to have the capability and willingness to write off all your funding without reward. So it makes perfect sense not to get into it. On the other hand, people who do fund these fan projects don't deserve to be denigrated either.

I don't know why you would think I play these games because they are free,

Pardon my imprecision - "If one is just an enthusiast because it is free ...".

these games are among the most expensive.

Because not enough people buy them - so those who do, have to pay the premium and go out of their way to obtain them. When the demand dries up, the supply dries up. Good STGs/Shmups are "hard" and require a lot of repeat play. The average gaming public likes games that make them feel like (gaming) gods with the least amount of effort and skill.

The Pablum Era

[HydrogLox]

I can't help but read through this thread and keep seeing that this is still being thought of as a sequel to DUX.

The name hints at being a kind of a "Directors Cut". See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_Now_Redux

So the promised backers reward is like the "theatrical release" (Dux 1.5), combined with the "directors cut" (Redux - Dark Matters).

[Bee Cool]

No I have not. This is about the notion that it's cheap to develop and publish STG/Shmups - it is not. Everyone for themselves has to decide whether it is worth the expense and the risk to fund a kickstarter project. Ultimately you have to have the capability and willingness to write off all your funding without reward. So it makes perfect sense not to get into it. On the other hand, people who do fund these fan projects don't deserve to be denigrated either.

It's not about the notion that it's cheap. I don't give a damn how expensive it is, and I didn't imply it was cheap. I don't think it's worth the money. You then responded saying you thought this places was for enthusiasts [of shmups]. Which is directly implying that all REAL enthusiasts would and should be spending money on this game. That's nonsense, you don't determine who is a fan of these games and who isn't.

Pardon my imprecision - "If one is just an enthusiast because it is free ...".

Nope I won't pardon it, you said that so you could take the moral high ground and just ignore what I said, using your new edit your previous post doesn't even make sense.

Because not enough people buy them - so those who do, have to pay the premium and go out of their way to obtain them. When the demand dries up, the supply dries up. Good STGs/Shmups are "hard" and require a lot of repeat play. The average gaming public likes games that make them feel like (gaming) gods with the least amount of effort and skill.

You successfully ignored what I wrote. This was in response to you saying that I'm here only to be a freeloader and I responded saying that that's nonsense given how expensive these games are, if I wanted to freeload I wouldn't be into shmups. The rest of your post is just you ranting about something I'm not talking about.


It's a bit annoying to get responses from you that are quoting my posts yet are arguing against points I am not making.

[HydrogLox]

I don't think it's worth the money.

And you are perfectly in your right not to spend your money on it. Other people may have a different opinion and choose to act differently.

You then responded saying you thought this places was for enthusiasts [of shmups]. Which is directly implying that all REAL enthusiasts would and should be spending money on this game.

Even within a single genre tastes differ. For example, some people love Cave games, some don't - support what you like. You wrote:

It's really sad how people are so willing to spend a ton on these games just because it's a shmup.

... not "this" game. "these" games reads like "spend a ton of money on Shmups (in general)" to which "Enthusiasts tend to spend their money on what they are enthusiastic about" is a reasonable response. I apologize if I came across as implying that you are a freeloader - that was not intended. But the comment as it originally read, does play into one of my pet peeves when people - whoever they are, i.e. not you personally - say "this should have been a downloadable title" just because it is a "small game" - like Shmups usually are. It makes perfect sense for "small games" to command "full price" if they cater to a small audience.

[Bee Cool]

Ok, this will be my last post on the matter considering we aren't even talking about the game anymore.

... not "this" game. "these" games reads like "spend a ton of money on Shmups (in general)" to which "Enthusiasts tend to spend their money on what they are enthusiastic about" is a reasonable response. I apologize if I came across as implying that you are a freeloader - that was not intended. But the comment as it originally read, does play into one of my pet peeves when people - whoever they are, i.e. not you personally - say "this should have been a downloadable title" just because it is a "small game" - like Shmups usually are. It makes perfect sense for "small games" to command "full price" if they cater to a small audience.

No, you read my quote correctly, it is sad for people to spend money on games just because they are shmups. You need to understand that being a scrolling shooter should NEVER be a sufficient cause for purchasing or playing a game. No genre of games contains only good games, in fact most of them aren't worth bothering with. I think it's pretty dumb to buy everything that has "STG" or "Shmup" in the description, just as it is stupid to buy every fighting game, racing game etc. You are undoubtedly going to buy at least as much shit as you are gold. Shmup fans seem to be much more intense than other communities, it's not uncommon to find people who want to get every shmup for a console.

I think the creator of Redux 2 is just taking advantage of the mentality, the: "must have everything that's called a shooter" mindset, I'd argue that a product of similar quality that was a different genre would not command 3/4ths the price they are asking.

[null1024]

In the end, none of this matters until this is released and we can actually see if this is great, okay, or shit. Mind you, I haven't played DUX, so if the first one wasn't so hot, I can see where whatever negativity towards this project comes from.

Dunno if I'd pay so much for the DC version though, maybe $30 or $40 would be a more reasonable price, but hey.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Orders open outside of kickstarter now:

http://hucast.com/index.php

Plus Dux and its soundtrack re-issues.

[Ghegs]

Hmm.

Redux: Dark Matters Limited Edition for Sega Dreamcast and DUX 1.5 for Sega Dreamcast (2 disc set)! Only 1000 copies will EVER be produced. Available exclusively on Kickstarter!

Available now here as well.

Tsk, tsk.

[Op Intensify]

Yeesh, that's sleazy.

[TransatlanticFoe]

The kickstarter only received ~600 pledges for Redux. There's probably not much difference between pressing 600 and 1000 so they figured to do the whole run?

The tsk tsk is that it weighs in more than $10 under the kickstarter pledge price...