Most Controversial Shmup?

[sethsez]

Border Down for instance hits you with rank by the second level and more average players may even chose to suicide before the end of level 1 to keep from experiencing this rank.

Border Down is also really, really blatant about the fact that rank exists in the game. BG... not so much.

Ahem, ALL Gradius games have rank increase triggered by missiles, it's just that in V it becomes blatant.

I know, rank doesn't bother me if it's a subtle way to keep pace with the player. In Gradius V, the increase in rank is much larger than the increase in firepower.

[BulletMagnet]

Ugh, I REALLY didn't mean to set this off...

EDIT: Btw, Rando, can I borrow "Joe Shmupoe" for my next sig?

[Randorama]

Ugh, I REALLY didn't mean to set this off...

EDIT: Btw, Rando, can I borrow "Joe Shmupoe" for my next sig?

No, please wait for some spontaneous burst of random madness involving such a bizarre figure and then, don't even ask.

[Elixir]

To Elixir: I'm sorry, but only an idiot would think that. If anyone understood the nature of Yin/Yang or Positive/Negative Karma/Chi they'd know it has nothing to do with Racism.

Ikaruga would have been racist if when you were black you only got half the amount of points as when your were white, your hit box got larger, and even when you got all the chains correctly, some 'white' ship would come along and get all the credit

Ikaruga would of been "racist" if it had the Zero Wing-theme of your white ship clinging to a black enemy and then throwing it backwards as a projectile. Talk about sucking a black man dry, huh.

The reason I posted it was because it's old and probably the most international controversay I've ever seen relating to shmups. When you think about it, every man and his dog had that in his emojournal saying "omg they think x game is so racist durf :B~" in it's due time.

[Nemo]

Daioujou tells you what patterns you need to get better by killing you. Rank is not a big factor in the game.

*cough* Excuse me?

Rank is far more vicious in Daioujou than it ever is in Garegga, due to the fact that in Daioujou, the game swarms you with bullets from the get-go. And if you're a score-based player - one who can get Hypers regularly - then the game will kick it up a few hundred notches long before you see stage 4.

In all fairness, the rank in Garegga is completely different from the rank any other game. The problem with Garegga is that rank is so convoluted it's practically impossible for a person to understand it without some sort of detailed explanation, on top of that, the rate at which it increases is completely unbalanced to the learning curve of the player. In most games a clear connection can be made: (A) I die less = (B) The game gets harder. In Garegga you have like 12+ independent variables all determing a single dependent variable. It's supposed to be a shooting game, not a damn calculus problem. And one shouldn't be forced to defy the basic princples of the shooting genre in order to keep rank feasible (i.e. not shoot, no collect power-ups, intentionally die, etc.).

[Randorama]

In all fairness, the rank in Garegga is completely different from the rank any other game.

Yes...

The problem with Garegga is that rank is so convoluted it's practically impossible for a person to understand it without some sort of detailed explanation

Not really, in the sense that the key aspects are pretty simple,rest is adding more words to make it more digestable.

, on top of that, the rate at which it increases is completely unbalanced to the learning curve of the player.

No, not really, but if you really think of it in this way, why you don't bitch about 90% of shmups? Please refer to your comment on Esp.Ra.De, for instance.

In most games a clear connection can be made: (A) I die less = (B) The game gets harder. In Garegga you have like 12+ independent variables all determing a single dependent variable. It's supposed to be a shooting game, not a damn calculus problem.

Not 12, 6, please refer to the ST. By the way: what's the difference between Garegga and any Cave shmup? They're supposed to be shmups (whack-a-mole?) not Geometry problems!

And one shouldn't be forced to defy the basic princples of the shooting genre in order to keep rank feasible (i.e. not shoot, no collect power-ups, intentionally die, etc.).

Why not? And why you don't bitch about Gradius V, too, which forces you WITH A GUN AIMED AT YOUR CROTCH, SCREAMING BRITNEY SPEARS SONGS ( had to add some dramatic comment, sorry) to avoid the missile power-up? It has been written in every *single* sacred book:

"woe, woe, woe to the man that doesn't take all the power-ups!".

Final question: do we really need another pointless debate on why shmups are not all whack-a-mole vomit to please the disturbingly apathetic appetite of Joe Shmupoe, the one who wants just to win and eat his Mayo while waving the flag of his favourite console?

(i can do better, i think).

Ah, i forgot: does timing for chain in DOJ require knowledge of advanced statistical methods or what? "shoot-addthreenanosecondswithlaser-gotopointxtokillenemyy-triggerhyper-takingwhiledodgingsevenhundredbullets-triggeritattheverylastmomentetc"

Very intuitive, without a doubt

[zaphod]

I agree that while battle garegga seems friendly at first, it's really not very friendly to a true newbie. it's friendly to moderately skilled players. but here's a classic situation where Battle Garegga is unfriendly to newbies.

Newbie fights his way to the stage 2 boss, and loses his last life there, but only seees simple bursting patterns. He goes ah ha! I can beat this guy. He plays again, only this time, because he died less due to improving and having played before and hasn' been practicing rank controlling techs, the rank level went up, and he suddenly sees Madball's turets glowing blue, and by the time he's doen thinking "wtf?" he's zapped by a huge amount of blue lightning. that didnt' happen before, wtf? He then pumps more firepower into it, and when by all rights it should be dead, its still alive, because the rank increase gave the boss more hitpoints. he loses again...

What would make it a lot friendlier is if it told you when rank increased. until a ways into the game, you can only spot the rank increases by how the bosses change their attacks and get more hitpoints.

Not shooting when there is nothing to shoot does not go against the "rules of shmupping" in any way shape or form. That is in fact what you are supposed to do in another game that has a similar sort of rank system. Zanac.

rank itself was concieved as a way to let novices play longer so they will be encouraged while at the same time shortening the game of experts so the arcade will make more money. the problem is when the expert will get farther by skipping powerups and deliberately scoring badly. This is a sign of badly balanced rank. Take BOrder down. it most definitely has rank. but the game gives strong incentives for you to keep rank high by providing more scoring opportnities. Thus rank is balanced. novices will want to keep rank low so they can play, while experts will try to max out the rank asap so they get more points. But the deal wth garegga is you are SUPPOSED to manipulate the rank. and you hae to play for core to do it. To 1cc garegga, yo umust master playing FOR SCORE. that's what's so weird about it.

[Icarus]

In all fairness, the rank in Garegga is completely different from the rank any other game. The problem with Garegga is that rank is so convoluted it's practically impossible for a person to understand it without some sort of detailed explanation...

Think of it this way. When and where rank has been featured in every shmup released to date, it has usually had a factor or a few that influences it - powering up, collecting medals, survival etc - and in a majority of cases, the player has very little ability to keep it down. Garegga in essence is no different: you still have factors that affect the difficulty, but in this case you are given the ability to control it.

There is nothing convoluted about Garegga's rank system at all. It takes from all the past rank systems to date - powering up, survival, collecting stuff, killing stuff - factors, I might add, you should be more than familiar with if you are a long-time shooter player. The only difference being that in Garegga, it ties all of these seperate factors together into one controllable system.

...on top of that, the rate at which it increases is completely unbalanced to the learning curve of the player.

Well, Garegga (like every other shmup to date) is meant to be played proactively and observantly. Referring to one of BER's old GamingJournal posts, an expert player learns to bend the game to his will, to control everything that happens - how enemies move, where bullets are fired, what appears and when, etc - and with Garegga it is pretty much no different. The only exception being that, was well as learning to control the game, you have to control your own instincts as well.

That in essence, is the true learning curve in Garegga. In every other shmup, the "learning curve" is determined by how quickly you master the stages. In Garegga, the "learning curve" is determined by how well you master your own impulses.

It's supposed to be a shooting game, not a damn calculus problem. And one shouldn't be forced to defy the basic princples of the shooting genre in order to keep rank feasible (i.e. not shoot, no collect power-ups, intentionally die, etc.).

Who are you or I to say what the basic principles of a shooting game are? We are merely consumers, people who buy and play this stuff. The people who dictate what the basic principles of the genre are the people who make the games.

Why do you think so many people love this game and continue to play it, nearly nine years after it's release? It's a game that makes you think in a totally different manner to what you are used to, it poses a different kind of challenge to the "stay alive and kill everything" type of game. You can have your Raidens, your Strikers, your 194X, your Trizeal, Thunderforces and Gradii. Personally, I'd rather take the challenge that Garegga poses to me over any other game, simply because, as a player, I want to be tested in different, unconventional ways.

And when you get down to it, Garegga was never meant for us gaijin anyway. The Japanese gamers have a love for games that change convention, that feature some kind of complexity, that offer new and different challenges. Western games design forces us to prefer the "more of the same, please" and "help meeeeeee!" approach: if it's not immediately apparent what you have to do (either through tutorials or by hand-holding) then we shun it as garbage; if the game isn't familiar, then it's ignored.

But the deal wth Garegga is you are SUPPOSED to manipulate the rank. And you have to play for score to do it. To 1cc Garegga, you must master playing FOR SCORE.

That's one of the reasons why the "hardcore" players and Garegga fans hold it so dearly.

[Nemo]

The problem with Garegga is that rank is so convoluted it's practically impossible for a person to understand it without some sort of detailed explanation

Not really, in the sense that the key aspects are pretty simple,rest is adding more words to make it more digestable.

Then why exactly does the game have more "strategy" written about it than practically any other shooter in history? Hardly any of the tactics in Garegga are intuitive, that's why there are so many debates on the game in the first place, there's so much confusion about the legitamacy and rationale of its characteristics.

, on top of that, the rate at which it increases is completely unbalanced to the learning curve of the player.

No, not really, but if you really think of it in this way, why you don't bitch about 90% of shmups? Please refer to your comment on Esp.Ra.De, for instance.

Why don't we? Because 99% of shooters aren't as incomprehenisble and unorthodox as Garegga is. In most shooters you can play a game, lose, and understand how you messed up. In Garegga no such clarification exists by simply playing the game.

In most games a clear connection can be made: (A) I die less = (B) The game gets harder. In Garegga you have like 12+ independent variables all determing a single dependent variable. It's supposed to be a shooting game, not a damn calculus problem.

Not 12, 6, please refer to the ST. By the way: what's the difference between Garegga and any Cave shmup? They're supposed to be shmups (whack-a-mole?) not Geometry problems!

please refer to the ST. That says it all. And the difference between Garegga and a Cave shooter? Convoluted rank!

And one shouldn't be forced to defy the basic princples of the shooting genre in order to keep rank feasible (i.e. not shoot, no collect power-ups, intentionally die, etc.).

Why not? And why you don't bitch about Gradius V, too, which forces you WITH A GUN AIMED AT YOUR CROTCH, SCREAMING BRITNEY SPEARS SONGS ( had to add some dramatic comment, sorry) to avoid the missile power-up? It has been written in every *single* sacred book:

"woe, woe, woe to the man that doesn't take all the power-ups!".

In Gradius V when you enable missile the game becomes harder, not impossible. This goes back to the whole argument about why rank in Garegga is so controversial, because it isn't a part of the game, it is the game.

Final question: do we really need another pointless debate on why shmups are not all whack-a-mole vomit to please the disturbingly apathetic appetite of Joe Shmupoe, the one who wants just to win and eat his Mayo while waving the flag of his favourite console?

(i can do better, i think).

I still don't get this whack-a-mole business, whack-a-moles have been dead for more than a decade. Cave, Psikyo, Takumi, Success games all don't subscribe to the whack-a-mole style, yet people have no reason to devote countless topics to the subject of rank in these games. Your whole thing is that people that don't like Garegga are somehow incompetent, yet the truth is that the people that do like Garegga have a niche sense of enjoyment.

Ah, i forgot: does timing for chain in DOJ require knowledge of advanced statistical methods or what? "shoot-addthreenanosecondswithlaser-gotopointxtokillenemyy-triggerhyper-takingwhiledodgingsevenhundredbullets-triggeritattheverylastmomentetc"

Very intuitive, without a doubt

I brought this up last topic, do you have to keep your chain in order to survive in DOJ? If you did, then yes, it would be on the same level as Garegga. Fortunately you don't, because there should be a line bewteen survival and getting the "ultimate score".

[Cthulhu]

And when you get down to it, Garegga was never meant for us gaijin anyway. The Japanese gamers have a love for games that change convention, that feature some kind of complexity, that offer new and different challenges. Western games design forces us to prefer the "more of the same, please" and "help meeeeeee!" approach: if it's not immediately apparent what you have to do (either through tutorials or by hand-holding) then we shun it as garbage; if the game isn't familiar, then it's ignored.

Sorry, but there's nothing mystic or inherently great about Japanese players. They don't "pursue innovation" or anything like that. Games that stray too far from the norm usually die a painful death once they hit the market, and me-too games often (usually) oust the irregular ones.

Just as Garegga is famous/infamous among us, it's remembered in Japan by a dedicated crowd but 99.9% of the gaming population has forgotten about it and no longer cares.

[Alske]

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining about Garegga or rank. I'm merely stating that rank makes a game more inaccessable to new players. Garegga is one of the most extreme examples of rank, thus it is one of the least accessable shooters.

In DOJ it is obvious from the moment you use a hyper that you have just made the game more difficult, and if I remember correctly a bomb will lower rank if used during a hyper. Garegga has nothing so obvious incorporated into its rank system.

Garegga used to be at the 20 yen arcade, so I've played it a whole ton, without knowing about rank. I made it to level 4 the first time I played, and I made it to level 4 the final time I played the game. I don't object to complicated systems, I object to complicated systems that require me to get on the internet to and read a strategy guide to be able to play.

Just to get it out there:

I do hate Raiden DX because of the slow ships and fast bullets, but I really hate it because of the power-up system.
I don't hate Gradius V because of rank, I hate it because it's Gradius.

[Icarus]

Sorry, but there's nothing mystic or inherently great about Japanese players. They don't "pursue innovation" or anything like that. Games that stray too far from the norm usually die a painful death once they hit the market, and me-too games often (usually) oust the irregular ones.

Just as Garegga is famous/infamous among us, it's remembered in Japan by a dedicated crowd but 99.9% of the gaming population has forgotten about it and no longer cares.

I guess I see the world through rose-tinted glasses.

Which is a shame really. I was starting to prefer them to the beer goggles.

[neojma]

I can't believe nobody mentioned Ketsui (or else I missed it). Perhaps not "controversial" in that people either like/hate gameplay aspects of it, but the whole saga of the Ketsui port is the biggest soap opera in the shmup community in years.

Outside of that, Radiant Silvergun sucks and I'm glad I made a bunch of money selling it to some sucker. Ah, the Treasure fanboys' agitation level just went up a couple notches...

[Randorama]

Nemo, you are not serious, because...

Then why exactly does the game have more "strategy" written about it than practically any other shooter in history? Hardly any of the tactics in Garegga are intuitive, that's why there are so many debates on the game in the first place, there's so much confusion about the legitamacy and rationale of its characteristics.

Milk forever in Esp.Ra.De and intuitive, right.Or the various videos, essays, etc, on the Pachis...in Japanese, would you like to ignore that material so you can be magically right?

Why don't we?

Why don't you, thanks...

Because 99% of shooters aren't as incomprehenisble and unorthodox as Garegga is. In most shooters you can play a game, lose, and understand how you messed up. In Garegga no such clarification exists by simply playing the game.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. In shmups, you die because you bite the bullet. Why such bullets go so fast in DOJ? Magic? Nooo, hyper, which is rank, and the discourse has to be applied to Esp.Ra.De, Progear, Guwange,Raiden DX, all Gradii...etc etc etc

!

please refer to the ST. That says it all. And the difference between Garegga and a Cave shooter? Convoluted rank!

[/quote]

AHAHAHAHAHAH! ...are you serious?

In Gradius V when you enable missile the game becomes harder, not impossible.

Same as Garegga. HOw about developing some more skills?

I still don't get this whack-a-mole business, whack-a-moles have been dead for more than a decade. Cave

, Psikyo, Takumi, Success games all don't subscribe to the whack-a-mole style, yet people have no reason to devote countless topics to the subject of rank in these games.

Nor they have on Garegga...

Your whole thing is that people that don't like Garegga are somehow incompetent, yet the truth is that the people that do like Garegga have a niche sense of enjoyment.

Nemo, if you want to prosecute someone because "he summons demons", are you to be taken seriously? people that bitch about Garegga's rank fall in the witch-hunt category. Your narrow-minded idea is that games should also adhere to unwritten standards, too, so...the truth is that you now need to go for Marc or CMoon, speaking of people on this very thread and tell them " you bastards, burn for your niche sense of enjoyment!".You, on the other side, talk about orthodoxy in games...uhm!!!

Seriously, the people who dis things without understanding them are a nasty category, i would say incompetent, yes:i hope you agree with me. If you don't like something because of the way it works, fine, but don't make excuses, launch crusades, or charge wind-mills and put words in other people's mouth.

I don't think in job only, after all.

[Cthulhu]

I guess I see the world through rose-tinted glasses.

Which is a shame really. I was starting to prefer them to the beer goggles.

I used to feel the same way... unfortunately, after moving to Japan, I found that it's a real place and not nearly as ideal as I had imagined.

[Nemo]

Nemo, you are not serious, because...

Then why exactly does the game have more "strategy" written about it than practically any other shooter in history? Hardly any of the tactics in Garegga are intuitive, that's why there are so many debates on the game in the first place, there's so much confusion about the legitamacy and rationale of its characteristics.

Milk forever in Esp.Ra.De and intuitive, right.Or the various videos, essays, etc, on the Pachis...in Japanese, would you like to ignore that material so you can be magically right?

Again, you're talking about reaching the "ultimate score" in these games where as I'm merely talking about surviving in Garegga. Can you not see the difference?

Why don't we?

Why don't you, thanks...

Because it's unecessary.

Because 99% of shooters aren't as incomprehenisble and unorthodox as Garegga is. In most shooters you can play a game, lose, and understand how you messed up. In Garegga no such clarification exists by simply playing the game.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. In shmups, you die because you bite the bullet. Why such bullets go so fast in DOJ? Magic? Nooo, hyper, which is rank, and the discourse has to be applied to Esp.Ra.De, Progear, Guwange,Raiden DX, all Gradii...etc etc etc

Of course it's caused by rank, but the dilemma is the identification of what is causing the increase in rank. In DOJ, it's quite easy to see, in Garegga it is not.

In Gradius V when you enable missile the game becomes harder, not impossible.

Same as Garegga. How about developing some more skills?

What for? Garegga isn't a skill-based game. A true skill-based game can be beaten on natural ability alone while being totally ignorant to rank. Garegga punishes you for being skilled and expects you adhere to cowardice principles in order continue participation in its perverse square dance. Obviously some ability is necessary to eventually ALL the game, but that takes a backseat to mathematical deduction. Call me weird, but I like to figure games out myself, reading strategy guides and watching replays is for the "skillless" as you would probably put it. And any game that forces their utilization is flawed.

I still don't get this whack-a-mole business, whack-a-moles have been dead for more than a decade. Cave

, Psikyo, Takumi, Success games all don't subscribe to the whack-a-mole style, yet people have no reason to devote countless topics to the subject of rank in these games.

Nor they have on Garegga...

But they do, so what's the reason? People are just a bunch of babies and victims, right?

Nemo, if you want to prosecute someone because "he summons demons", are you to be taken seriously? people that bitch about Garegga's rank fall in the witch-hunt category. Your narrow-minded idea is that games should also adhere to unwritten standards, too, so...the truth is that you now need to go for Marc or CMoon, speaking of people on this very thread and tell them " you bastards, burn for your niche sense of enjoyment!".You, on the other side, talk about orthodoxy in games...uhm!!!

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre. At one point is something twisted so much as it's no longer indentifyable amongst its peers. Let Garegga become a genre in of itself, we'll call it the "Exercises in illogical Tedium" genre.

Seriously, the people who dis things without understanding them are a nasty category, i would say incompetent, yes:i hope you agree with me. If you don't like something because of the way it works, fine, but don't make excuses, launch crusades, or charge wind-mills and put words in other people's mouth.

I don't think in job only, after all.

It's quite the opposite, I understand Garegga so well I that its flaws slap me like a cement truck. And at no point did I do any of the following: make excuses, launch crusades, or charge wind-mills and put words in other people's mouth. My only purpose has been to elborate on why Garegga is ruined by rank, I'm not inventing anything here, I'm presenting a reality. People can make excuses for any type of flaw and warp it so others believe it's actually legitamate. Your blind admiration has conquered any sense of objectivity.

[Randorama]

Again, you're talking about reaching the "ultimate score" in these games where as I'm merely talking about surviving in Garegga. Can you not see the difference?

No, Who forces you to play for 20M in Garegga?The only serious comment you can make and you didn't (wonder why :rolleyes:) is that you need to extend in Garegga, in the sense that 1life clears are impossible.Only difference.

Because it's unecessary.

Ah i hope for you that you're kidding.

Of course it's caused by rank, but the dilemma is the identification of what is causing the increase in rank. In DOJ, it's quite easy to see, in Garegga it is not.

Speak for yourself, please kthx. The only factor i never found out bymself is bullet nullification. Garegga doesn't nothing new, rank-wise, all elements that increase rank appear first in other games.

What for? Garegga isn't a skill-based game. A true skill-based game can be beaten on natural ability alone while being totally ignorant to rank.

This is non-sense (like the rest). In Garegga you need to dodge bullets exactly like in all other shmups. "Natural ability" (eh???) and "being ignorant to rank" (ignorance as a bliss is a protestant myth, give me a break...) are legends: did you pop out in the world and cleared DOJ on your first attempt? You're bitching because you don't want to use your brains to find out what's going on, a necessary condition for all games. Sure, you can invent other emotion-inducing slogans like

Garegga punishes you for being skilled and expects you adhere to cowardice principles in order continue participation in its perverse square dance.

But clearly your point is that you don't know, you don't want to know, and you hate the fact that the game won't let you win because of this.

Call me weird, but I like to figure games out myself, reading strategy guides and watching replays is for the "skillless" as you would probably put it. And any game that forces their utilization is flawed.

Well, here you keep assuming that your personal thoughts are the rule of the world (...not surprising) but you can do the same on every single game.Which goes back to the above discourse...
I still don't get this whack-a-mole business, whack-a-moles have been dead for more than a decade. Cave

But they do, so what's the reason? People are just a bunch of babies and victims, right?

Exercise of logic (which makes you think, sorry) : the people who bitch about what they don't understand and they don't want to, are a bunch of babies and obtuse. The rest, we'll see.

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre.

You're talking like a religious fanatic. What the fuck are you saying? Find me a book where there are the written rules of shmups and find me a legal system that will persecute the programmers of Garegga (9 years almost, conviction!) for their breaking the rules

At one point is something twisted so much as it's no longer indentifyable amongst its peers. Let Garegga become a genre in of itself, we'll call it the "Exercises in illogical Tedium" genre.

Given the things written above, your knowledge of logic is non-existant.Sorry, but i have to show off a bit, and my knowledge of logic is a bit more than elementary, i get a salary for that.
[

It's quite the opposite, I understand Garegga so well

zero, and you use the language of a religious fanatic to corroborate your points. Smart move!

I that its flaws slap me like a cement truck. And at no point did I do any of the following: make excuses, launch crusadesor charge wind-mills and put words in other people's mouth.

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre.

uh-uh, yes.

My only purpose has been to elborate on why Garegga is ruined by rank, I'm not inventing anything here, I'm presenting a reality. People can make excuses for any type of flaw and warp it so others believe it's actually legitamate. Your blind admiration has conquered any sense of objectivity.

My what? You speak like a religious zealot and pretend to have the universal truth. All the threads against Garegga have this basic factor of irrational and bigotic hate, i'd addI understand that given your country of provenience, this is to be considered as a rational and logical behaviour, which is not by the way, but so far your arguments are good for an holy crusade. The only reality you're presenting is your fanatism in pursuing arguments based on false bases and supported by poor inner logic. You always behaved in this way, to my memory, so...

[Neon]

Quote:

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre.


You're talking like a religious fanatic. What the fuck are you saying? Find me a book where there are the written rules of shmups and find me a legal system that will persecute the programmers of Garegga (9 years almost, conviction!) for their breaking the rules Laughing

[ResOGlas]

At the moment I would have to say Ibara. There are so many blinding explosions and so much shrapnel flying at you, not to mention that at first introduction to the game you might confuse different weapon upgrades as enemy bullets. I absolutely loved the game at first, but a few of my friends were calling me a Cave fanboy for liking it. Now those same friends keep dragging me back to the arcades for a few rounds of Ibara. I think it's a very intimidating game to newcomers until they become only exclusively conscious of the bullets and zone out the rest. Also the standard shooting button can be held down like a "C shot", which is kind of a downer, but not a big deal. I also really enjoy the different bombing tactics you can do by either pressing the bomb button rapidly, tapping once, or charge and release shot.

Oh yeah, don't forget the close-up you get of the bosses panties when you win!

[Herr Schatten]

You speak like a religious zealot and pretend to have the universal truth. All the threads against Garegga have this basic factor of irrational and bigotic hate,

Umm, no. Actually, what all those pointless threads about Garegga do have in common is that the argument goes nowhere because you, Rando, and other Garegga fans assume that one who understands the way Garegga works automatically has to love it. If you assume this, it's clear that, following simple logic, someone who dislikes Garegga necessarily doesn't understand the way it works. Since all your logic is based on the first (IMO, wrong) assumption, all those arguments are doomed to ultimately lead to nothing and become simple contradiction ("Yes it is", "No it isn't").

Nemo actually summed this up quite well:

Your whole thing is that people that don't like Garegga are somehow incompetent, yet the truth is that the people that do like Garegga have a niche sense of enjoyment.

I wouldn't quite use such drastic words as Nemo, but has it ever occured to you that there are other reasons for people disliking games than simply because they suck at it?
Take me for example. I don't like Takumi games much, but not because I don't understand the way their systems work, but because the concept of reflecting bullets doesn't appeal to me in the least. I do, however, acccept that those games are just not made for me and leave them alone.

This goes back to the whole argument about why rank in Garegga is so controversial, because it isn't a part of the game, it is the game.

That's very true. And for people who like the rank game, it is a finely crafted game as it is. But certainly the rank game doesn't appeal to everyone. And it doesn't have to. Why should it? It's perfectly acceptable to dislike Garegga because you don't like to play the rank game.

On a side note: Seriously, Rando, if anyone here is pretending to have the universal truth, it's you.

[BulletMagnet]

Garegga isn't a skill-based game.

Though I begin to doubt my sanity for jumping into a Garegga rank discussion at this point, I have to interject for a moment. The way I see it, Garegga is ridiculously skill-based, and that's part of what makes it inaccessible to non-hardcore players. In order to play the game "properly" you have to both score highly and limit your acquisitions to keep the rank down, but you really don't have to play all that differently than any other shmup: you just have to play near-perfectly, with almost NO room for error. You have to be able to play through most of the game "normally," BUT with minimal powerups, no full bombs in stock, and no lives in reserve. This means that you have to know the game so well, and be so confident in your abilities to stay alive when you need to and keep the medal chain going and the extends coming, that you're able to not collect powerups, use only bomb fragments to destroy scenery, and toss away your excess lives for most of the duration.

Is Garegga perfect? No, no shmup is. Does everyone have to like it? I certainly don't think so. But is it skill-based? To that I have to say "yes."

[Randorama]

Umm, no. Actually, what all those pointless threads about Garegga do have in common is that the argument goes nowhere because you, Rando,

This is trolling, because

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre

You also have no logic skills and the bad habit of putting things in someone's else mouth because

and other Garegga fans assume that one who understands the way Garegga works automatically has to love it.

Somewhere else i wrote " as long as you understand and you don't like, fine, the rest is holy crusades against the infidels" which is based on false myths like "natural ability".

If you assume this, it's clear that, following simple logic, someone who dislikes Garegga necessarily doesn't understand the way it works

Ex falso sequitur quodlibet (from falsehood, anything follows), which is something that i ruled out at the vey beginning. In all honesty, i find offensive that you try to explain logic to me, a graduate student in the field: "Logic" (all various fields, models and variants) works in a given way (better, they all have their specific rules), and it is not subject to "personal opinions". You can change axioms according to a need to explain more things, but you don't just raise one day and make up theories. Uh, unless you're Steve Pinker (ehr...).

.

Since all your logic is based on the first (IMO, wrong) assumptio

Which i never claimed, repetita iuvant (repetitions are useful...)

all those arguments are doomed to ultimately lead to nothing and become simple contradiction ("Yes it is", "No it isn't").

Except that my inferences are based on how Garegga works. Inferences like " I merely follow the will of the shmup God" are based on lunacy. Is it so difficult for you to understand?

Nemo actually summed this up quite well:

Your whole thing is that people that don't like Garegga are somehow incompetent, yet the truth is that the people that do like Garegga have a niche sense of enjoyment.

My point is
1)people that don't like Garegga because they don't appreciate things that are not present in the game, clearly don't know what they are talking about;
2)People who invoke unwritten rules, etherodoxy and aim at basic reactions of love-hate to convince other people that they're right, are dangerous bigots and hate-mangers;
3)People that don't like games because of their engines, are the group i belong to, and i accept myself, so to speak.

I wouldn't quite use such drastic words as Nemo, but has it ever occured to you that there are other reasons for people disliking games than simply because they suck at it?

See above...

Take me for example. I don't like Takumi games much, but not because I don't understand the way their systems work, but because the concept of reflecting bullets doesn't appeal to me in the least. I do, however, acccept that those games are just not made for me and leave them alone.

And thus you clearly don't belong to Nemo's set. That's basic set theory, and by this comment you show not to know it. It's not patronizing, but if you pretend to explain things to me in my own field, i can only roll my eyes (i.e. :rolleyes: )

That's very true. And for people who like the rank game, it is a finely crafted game as it is. But certainly the rank game doesn't appeal to everyone. And it doesn't have to. Why should it? It's perfectly acceptable to dislike Garegga because you don't like to play the rank game.

And thus we agree, as you could have found out by reading my posts properly...

On a side note: Seriously, Rando, if anyone here is pretending to have the universal truth, it's you.

This is a very bad example of misunderstanding,as one person (Nemo) goes fire and brimstone (ah, he follows the will of the shmup god, i forgot.Religion is the opium of the masses, i agree with Marx on this) and the other has pointed out the various flaws of the discourse. Now you will tell me that nothing exists and all is relative, i suppose, but then you have completely switched sides. "The universal truth" is a meaningless expression, which is used by religious zealots because of what someone else wrote things on books.
Of course, if you can find where i claim to hold the universal truth, whereas "everyone else" peacefully observes objective facts, you would sound less of a troll. I claim to know well what the rules of first level predicate logic are, if you think that they can be made on spot because, well,"everything is relative", i can only laugh with arrogance. Do you wonder why?

Ah...

The way I see it, Garegga is ridiculously skill-based, and that's part of what makes it inaccessible to non-hardcore players. In order to play the game "properly" you have to both score highly and limit your acquisitions to keep the rank down

No, you're still making a few mistakes.Let me explain why: the basic idea of the game is that you can just blast away stuff (and even a "bullet magnet" can reach stage 5!), or you can learn the basics of scoring (and its perverse twin, rank manipulation) and score some more: these should suffice, if you're quite skilled you can complete the game (lowest clears were about 5M with some planes, i remember).I still have to "proof-read" Icarus' guide, but one advanced tecnique is stock up lives in key spots (example: for Black Heart mk2, last stage) and then use them for scoring purposes (bombing). Historical note: Bakraid is the next step in this approach, as you can read from Icarus' guide.

...If you really want to spend your next decade with the game, you learn to play it at full rank.
One general idea: if the rank is at the lowest level on last boss, the differences are bullet speed (lower, but not too much), and uhm, 20% hit points less, the attack sequence is the same.Rank or not rank,it's a mind-boggling pain in the ass.

One more general idea on difficulty,though: as i said many times (probably not here, just bitching a bit), the late '90s saw an explosion of incredibly complex games. The merit of Giga Wing and other similar shmups is the return to a more minimal set, in which score is the only option that makes games difficult, like in early '90s titles. Since we're here, Raiden Fighters games are about suiciding twice and then clearing the game on the last life, for rank purposes (i may be wrong, i saw the DVD just once). And yes, i'm all for newbie-friendly games, but i don't condemn the Garegga-DDP generation for being the peak of complexity. After all, there were three times the adventors, in japanese arcades, and competition for the "hardcorest!" title had a sense.



Personally, i think that Garegga is perfect, but i have the same opinion of many other games. I'm generous, for sure.

[BulletMagnet]

...these should suffice, if you're quite skilled you can complete the game (lowest clears were about 5M with some planes, i remember)

"Quite skilled" indeed, heh: if you can manage to get all the way through Garegga with so few suicides under your belt (heck, my own high score is between 4.5 and 5 mil, and I'm nowhere close to clearing the sucker) you still hafta know the game very well.

[Randorama]

"Quite skilled" indeed, heh: if you can manage to get all the way through Garegga with so few suicides under your belt (heck, my own high score is between 4.5 and 5 mil, and I'm nowhere close to clearing the sucker) you still hafta know the game very well.

Welcome to "most arcade games before 2k"

but well, if you keep it calm and you have great skills (i.e. the ones that did such a feat should be the "usual suspects"), one death per stage (plus the secret life and the two default ones) the game is doable. Like most shmups,if you plan a bit (which is not just rank manipulation, but also bomb distributions and other tricks), the game is not insane, just very anal.Unlike any R-type/Gradius/Raiden/Tatsujin/etc, recovering from a death is easy, and dying is not the worst slap in the face you can get...argh, so counterintuitive!

[BulletMagnet]

Heh heh, you oughta know me well enough by now to know that I have no illusions about my chances for beating most shmups (pre-2000 or not). But I'll keep on truckin'. But why even bring up death recovery (it's one of the few things in Garegga no one's complained about, leave it alone! ) out of nowhere? Heaven (and most of the forum, probably) knows how I feel about that to begin with...not like anyone cares though.

[Alske]

Ex falso sequitur quodlibet (from falsehood, anything follows), which is something that i ruled out at the vey beginning. In all honesty, i find offensive that you try to explain logic to me, a graduate student in the field: "Logic" (all various fields, models and variants) works in a given way (better, they all have their specific rules), and it is not subject to "personal opinions". You can change axioms according to a need to explain more things, but you don't just raise one day and make up theories. Uh, unless you're Steve Pinker (ehr...).

What I find offensive is that with this statement you seem to be insisting that you're the smartest person here, and thus you must be right. What it sounds like to me, is that you don't think that anyone intelligent could not like garegga.

I'm not saying that one side is right or wrong, it's simply that by dismissing opposing opinions because people "clearly don't know what they are talking about" doesn't really bring anyone closer to an enlightened opinion on the subject at hand.

I'm sorry if I come off as accusationary, but as a graduate student you must know that thoughtful discourse is preferable to the shouting match that this is degenerating into.

[Icarus]

Of course it's caused by rank, but the dilemma is the identification of what is causing the increase in rank. In DOJ, it's quite easy to see, in Garegga it is not.

Of course it's quite easy to see, because it's so fucking blatant. The very instant you use a Hyper, the change is so sudden it's obvious what just caused it. In Garegga the increase is gradual, which is why you must be observant to change. The same principle is applied to all other shooters - you observe changes and adapt, or else you get eliminated.

What for? Garegga isn't a skill-based game. A true skill-based game can be beaten on natural ability alone while being totally ignorant to rank. Garegga punishes you for being skilled and expects you adhere to cowardice principles in order continue participation in its perverse square dance.

Hah! "Natural ability" is a complete myth. There is no such thing as birth-given capabilities to play games; the use of the term implies that in the near future a videogame God will pop out of his/her mother's womb and proceed to obliterate all challengers, the very idea is refutable. All abilities are trained - co-ordination, reactive ability, visual ability, information processing - and while everyone starts with varying levels, they can all be trained up.

I very much doubt that anyone can claim to play for an ALL and be totally ignorant of rank in any game, because the system is designed to obstruct your progression. If you play for an ALL, you have to be mindful of it, and have some control over it. Same goes for all games, an understanding of the system can further progression.

As is commented on several occasions, Garegga requires a completely different "skill" set to what you would previously use in the rest of the genre. If you play with the required "skill" set, then the game is quite relaxed. You try going on with regular blasting tactics and... well...

To quote a line from Arcadia's Ibara guide in issue 62 (thanks Cthulhu for the translation):

If your rank gets so high that you can’t go on, then it’s important for you to re-think the way you’re playing the game.

That in essence is strategy, not just in Garegga, but in ALL games. If you find that progression is obstructed, either by on-screen problems - enemies, scenery, bullet patterns - or by invisible factors - rank - then you adopt a new strategy. It's the fault of Western gaming practice that expects a game to give in to the player. Games are meant to challenge.

I see this mentality popping up a lot recently, with the "easiest game to 1CC?" threads. Sure, it's good to give yourself a confidence boost, and a few easy notches on the list, but be prepared to eat dirt when a game comes by that grabs you by the throat and shakes you like a rag doll.

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre.

That again? "Guidelines" may have been established since the dawn of the genre, but all rules undergo change and evolution. If you think that every shmup should be "go through stage, blow shit up, progress" then by admission, the genre is dead, every game will be the same, a carbon copy of the previous one.

Rules in game design are there to create familiarity, not to force design practice in a particular direction. Games will appear that bend or break these conventions. Are you going to dislike them because they don't adhere to genre convetions as well?

It's quite the opposite, I understand Garegga so well I that its flaws slap me like a cement truck. My only purpose has been to elborate on why Garegga is ruined by rank, I'm not inventing anything here, I'm presenting a reality.

You imply that you understand the game perfectly. That would suggest that you have extensive knowledge of the game, it's working systems, and can masterfully manipulate the game to your own will.

Can you?

People can make excuses for any type of flaw and warp it so others believe it's actually legitamate.

People can also create arguments without facts and warp them so others believe that it's legitimate. Lawyers have been doing it for years.

I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise.

I'm sorry if I come off as accusationary, but as a graduate student you must know that thoughtful discourse is preferable to the shouting match that this is degenerating into.

Welcome to a Garegga discussion.

[sethsez]

It's the fault of Western gaming practice that expects a game to give in to the player.

Why do people keep up this myth that Western gamers are the only ones who want to make games easier? I've seen more than one Japanese developer complain about how Japanese gamers want the game to be easy so they can experience all of it, rather than actually be challenged. The hardcore Japanese gamers love a challenge, but contrary to popular belief Japan isn't full of hardcore gamers. They have just as many "playing to see the end credits" players as the west does, and these days Western gamers are more likely to get harder versions of games than the Japanese are (Devil May Cry 3 being the most obvious recent example, where their hard mode is our normal).

[/tangent]

[Nemo]

Again, you're talking about reaching the "ultimate score" in these games where as I'm merely talking about surviving in Garegga. Can you not see the difference?

No, Who forces you to play for 20M in Garegga?The only serious comment you can make and you didn't (wonder why :rolleyes:) is that you need to extend in Garegga, in the sense that 1life clears are impossible.Only difference.

Exactly, the issue with Garegga isn't the goal of reaching an ultimate score, it's about merely surviving game while being oblivious to score. Yet, as you stated, one has to get extends, which require points, but anything you do for points increases rank, understand the empty cycle?

Of course it's caused by rank, but the dilemma is the identification of what is causing the increase in rank. In DOJ, it's quite easy to see, in Garegga it is not.

Speak for yourself, please kthx. The only factor i never found out bymself is bullet nullification. Garegga doesn't nothing new, rank-wise, all elements that increase rank appear first in other games.

But they have never been done in the same combination and to the same degree as in BG, which is again, why there's dissention.

What for? Garegga isn't a skill-based game. A true skill-based game can be beaten on natural ability alone while being totally ignorant to rank.

This is non-sense (like the rest). In Garegga you need to dodge bullets exactly like in all other shmups. "Natural ability" (eh???) and "being ignorant to rank" (ignorance as a bliss is a protestant myth, give me a break...) are legends: did you pop out in the world and cleared DOJ on your first attempt? You're bitching because you don't want to use your brains to find out what's going on, a necessary condition for all games. Sure, you can invent other emotion-inducing slogans like

It's impossible for a normal person to "use their brain" and simply know how to manipulate BG. If everything was so simple as you pretend it to be, there would be no need for the all the strategies and replays created for the game. And it wasn't until relatively recently that people even fully understood the intricacies of the rank system, people had ideas about what was involved, but didn't fully understand to what degree.

Garegga punishes you for being skilled and expects you adhere to cowardice principles in order continue participation in its perverse square dance.

But clearly your point is that you don't know, you don't want to know, and you hate the fact that the game won't let you win because of this.

No, the point is I do know, I've read the STs and any shooter that requires a player to play the way Garegga must be played, is flawed.

Did I write these rules? I'm merely follow the guidelines that were established since the dawn of the genre.

You're talking like a religious fanatic. What the fuck are you saying? Find me a book where there are the written rules of shmups and find me a legal system that will persecute the programmers of Garegga (9 years almost, conviction!) for their breaking the rules

So unwritten rules are just a myth I suppose. What makes a shooter different from a platformer or a sports game, I mean they all must be the same thing since there are no books written about what defines a game and a genre.

At one point is something twisted so much as it's no longer indentifyable amongst its peers. Let Garegga become a genre in of itself, we'll call it the "Exercises in illogical Tedium" genre.

Given the things written above, your knowledge of logic is non-existant.Sorry, but i have to show off a bit, and my knowledge of logic is a bit more than elementary, i get a salary for that.

Think as you may friend, but I'm the one looking at this logically (as I do with any subject) and you're the looking at it as an irrational fan.

My only purpose has been to elborate on why Garegga is ruined by rank, I'm not inventing anything here, I'm presenting a reality. People can make excuses for any type of flaw and warp it so others believe it's actually legitamate. Your blind admiration has conquered any sense of objectivity.

My what? You speak like a religious zealot and pretend to have the universal truth. All the threads against Garegga have this basic factor of irrational and bigotic hate, i'd addI understand that given your country of provenience, this is to be considered as a rational and logical behaviour, which is not by the way, but so far your arguments are good for an holy crusade. The only reality you're presenting is your fanatism in pursuing arguments based on false bases and supported by poor inner logic. You always behaved in this way, to my memory, so...

All your posts favoring BG are overwhelmed by irrationality and bigotic hate. Go ahead and insult me, my country, and anything else you want. You continue to believe I lack logic, yet you're arguing in favor of a system that is illogical, and contrary to normal shooting game behavior.

[Nemo]

Garegga isn't a skill-based game.

Though I begin to doubt my sanity for jumping into a Garegga rank discussion at this point, I have to interject for a moment. The way I see it, Garegga is ridiculously skill-based, and that's part of what makes it inaccessible to non-hardcore players. In order to play the game "properly" you have to both score highly and limit your acquisitions to keep the rank down, but you really don't have to play all that differently than any other shmup: you just have to play near-perfectly, with almost NO room for error. You have to be able to play through most of the game "normally," BUT with minimal powerups, no full bombs in stock, and no lives in reserve. This means that you have to know the game so well, and be so confident in your abilities to stay alive when you need to and keep the medal chain going and the extends coming, that you're able to not collect powerups, use only bomb fragments to destroy scenery, and toss away your excess lives for most of the duration.

Is Garegga perfect? No, no shmup is. Does everyone have to like it? I certainly don't think so. But is it skill-based? To that I have to say "yes."

I disagree, while skill is clearly part of the equation, it takes a back seat to other factors. If you're going to be so severly penalized for utilizing certain things favorable to your cause (collecting power-ups, point icons, bombs, etc.) then these factors shouldn't have been included, because from the onset you're figthing a backwards war. And at a point which is player must suicide, skill is a burden rather than an asset.