UPDATED:Treasure Developing Sega Gunstar Heroes PS2 release

[99pence]

If the rerelease is of a lower quality than the Megadrive originals (strangely very likely) then I won't buy it. It's as simple as that.

[sethsez]

Just find games you like and get them on the console with the best port.

Are you trying to diminish the love between a man and his console? That's a sacred bond, you know, as important and meaningful as any relationship you might have.

[Neon]

I never said I approved of it. I was just telling Pa not to waste his time trying to be reasonable.

Which is what I just went and did

[Recap]

However, I'm not that excited by RSG and one of my issues with it is the crappy 32 bit 3D. Even the best looking 3D titles on Ps1 and especially Saturn just look crummy to me. I can't help it. But Ikaruga, Shiki II, Psyv II, Gunspike, GW2 all look a hell of a lot better than RSG.

Your words sound like if you prefer polygons over art. I think the problem is that you consider RS a 3D-graphics game, which actually it isn't. Try to think of it as a pure 2D game with some 3D elements and maybe you'll start to enjoy it more.


And "razzing on me"? ??

Street Fighter Alpha 2 is better on PS, especially played on PS2 to quicken the loadtimes. And Alpha 3 is arguably better on PS as well...worse graphics, but the sound is far better.

Personally, I never discuss consoles superiority and whatnot, but that's just not true. A better sampled sound just can't beat many more animation frames and a much more suitable resolution/onscreen presentation. Everybody will tell you the same. Anyhow, I can see a PS2 SF Zero Collection coming soon. With the fake low res and all.

[Neon]

Street Fighter Alpha 2 is better on PS, especially played on PS2 to quicken the loadtimes. And Alpha 3 is arguably better on PS as well...worse graphics, but the sound is far better.

Personally, I never discuss consoles superiority and whatnot, but that's just not true. A better sampled sound just can't beat many more animation frames and a much more suitable resolution/onscreen presentation. Everybody will tell you the same. Anyhow, I can see a PS2 SF Zero Collection coming soon. With the fake low res and all.

I disagree...in the case of Alpha 3, the PS version has maybe 90 percent of the sound and graphics each, the Saturn version has better than arcade graphics but probably only 60 percent of the sound...it really ruins part of the experience to have all the punches/kicks, the announcer's voice, and even some of the music downsampled to weaksauce scratchiness. Listen to the character select music and between battles music on SS...so out of tune that it grates on the nerves (except in the case of when you lose, before it goes into the continue countdown. In that case the between-battles music is near perfect, perhaps because it doesn't have to load the sounds for the next battle).

At any rate, both versions are weak compared to the arcade. I recommend MAME or the PCB over either. The only gameplay mode missing there I think is world tour mode, which doesn't matter in the first place.

Alpha 2 maybe I'm missing something, but it seemed both versions were identical besides the PS having true transparencies and better sound. Some reviews I've read stated that the PS was missing more frames, I couldn't notice it but they're probably right.

[Recap]

I disagree...in the case of Alpha 3, the PS version has maybe 90 percent of the sound and graphics each,

90% percent the animation frames in the PS version? Believe me: no way. And again you're forgetting the resolution thing.

At any rate, both versions are weak compared to the arcade. I recommend MAME or the PCB over either. The only gameplay mode missing there I think is world tour mode, which doesn't matter in the first place.

Extra characters and backgrounds. It's a too good extra to not consider the SS version superior to the PCB.

Alpha 2 maybe I'm missing something, but it seemed both versions were identical besides the PS having true transparencies and better sound. Some reviews I've read stated that the PS was missing more frames, I couldn't notice it but they're probably right.

They're pretty evident, thoe, like in Zangief's intros or Gen's background. Anyways, the SS didn't have all the frames from the arcade, either - Dhalsim's background, for instance.

[azmun]

I don't blame Sega or the other companies for producing compilation packs...

Nor do I, because apparently they can't do anything original thats good anymore, so they'll just port the same shit over and over until we have the Sonic series coming out 5 generations from now and Street Fighter II on our Xbox50000000000.

I think Sega still has the creative talent to produce innovative games. It's what they've been doing for decades. The problem is, the market has changed dramatically over the years and they're not willing to risk anymore. They need to adapt to survive.

[llabnip]

*looks at 2 Hitachi Navi GPS HiSaturns... chuckles*

*Looks at 172 original jp games and my newly acquired 5th modified Saturn and smiles back.*

I enjoyed reading all your points - most of them well made. Here are the ones I take (minor) exception to.

Treasure themselves and ESP have been REAL big into porting lately... or in their entire career.

Treasure ported SM to the PS1 and Ikaruga to the GC. They are not opposed to ports - they just don't do it very often.

so I'm not seeing the "damage".

"destroying its library"

I assume these are in quotes because you attribute them to my original post. I never used either term - what I said was that as more and more games that get ported to the PS2, the shine of the Saturn diminishes since there are less and less games that can only be played (at home) on that system. However, after reading yours, Kiken's and other's posts on this subject, I'm talked off my ledge and do agree that there is still tons of reasons to recommend the Saturn. I'm not jumping ship - the Saturn is still my favorite machine and I'll continue to collect and play the best games for it. I do like the extras that the Saturn offers over the 'bare-bones' ports (though, in the end, as long as the gameplay is basically in-tact, I'm fine with a bare-bones port).

There was a time, not long ago, when you simply couldn't recommend a better machine for shooters or fighters. Those days are gone.

Only if you think quantity >>>>>>> quality

I think that you should play whatever games you enjoy on whatever console you enjoy them on. But people invarriably ask what is the best console for genere X and I do think about which consoles I would recommend for someone looking to get into the hobby. Up until this year, my recommendation of a shooter console was always the Saturn - hands down and unequivocal. But times have changed - these days there is too much qualitiy on the import PS2 (with PS1 library) with a wider base of games to choose from and new scrolling shooting games still appear on the horizon. Does that mean that a Saturn is not recommended? Hell, no. I still recommend it - but it would be #2 on my list of people looking to get into shooters at home.

unless you just have your head up Cave's ass there still isn't a better console...

Unless you enjoy Seibu Kaihatsu (Raiden series), Compile (Zanac Neo) or want the best Gradius (Gaiden, V) games or the largest library of Psikyo games (with Sengoku Ace, Dragon Blaze). Cave is amazingly well represented on the PS1/2 but it's hardly the only reason to recommend it (just talking shooters). Saturn has it's great games too - though the number of quality shooters you can only play (at home) on the Saturn no longer matches the quality shooters available on the PS1/2, in my opinion. In the end, I think it's best to own a wide variety of consoles and seek out the best games for each.

[Turrican]

1. Good games deserve to be ported. When a game is truly a classic, it's just too good to have it bound on a specific system. Tetris, Lemmings, Prince of Persia: you can find a port of these for any system.

2. People should be happy to see a new port of their old favorites. Regardless of any other thought. In fact, a new port will make the game accessible to new audience and affordable in price.

There's a bunch of collectors here (again, I can share their passion), but they should not worry. The old versions won't lose the value they have in their eyes. And this is not due to the new releases being crappy. New Gunbird loses Morrigan as extra, and art gallery and such. But let's suppose for a minute that it didn't lose them. Would Saturn fans be less happy with their SS copy of the game? No, because a collector is not interested in inherent quality of these games. He just takes pleasure into owning the "rare" first print of a game. I think they might be happier, because they now have more to collect (and in fact many detractors here end up buying collections, if only to badmouth them).

I don't think any of you seriously plans to become millionaire thanks to your optical junk collection. So it's not the case to worry too much if a game that used to go for $70 now goes for $55 on ebay. Besides, face it, you are more attached to these shiny discs than to your relatives, so don't worry if price drops as you would never sell them anyway.

Sega can no longer make anything worth a shit, so obviously they, like Capcom, have to revert to porting shit. Its pathetic really.

About shmups port... When 32bit arrived people were enthusiast about arcade perfect conversions. Now if an arcade gets a straight port on PS2 "it's not enough, because it misses the extras of the previous port". You people cannot anymore talk about SS exclusive, so you end talking about, err, exclusive stages and ships added in the SS rev. Sad, really.

The whole thing is absurd since, you've got it all wrong. If a game like Sengoku Aces gets a port after all these years, this shows the game is appreciated enough to be sold again. You should take pride, saying that you were right to recognize the game's qualities back in the days. And you should be happy that's available once again to mass consumer to experience it.

If 2001 - A Space Odyssey is remastered and brought to theatres again, critics rejoyce. If Citizen Kane is released on DVD for everyone's pleasure, cinephiles are happy.

But no, like in the Middle Age, you have the same approach to culture and knowledge that alchemists and pseudo magicians had: a thing increases its value if you keep it hidden. If you keep books in monasteries, keep them away from the masses, you'll gain a superior status as one of the few elite men that have access to a source of lore. It's a perfectly understandable position, and very much spread: The chinese empire created an alphabet that was so difficult to learn that it was used a a mean to social discrimination, ie only a few rich mandarins could afford to study it.

In the middle age, books were written and replicated by hand, and only a few copies were ever realized. Kings and rich landlords that desired a rare manuscript were willing to pay it with acres of land, entire castles were exchanged for a single book. Since many of these works were subversive to the religious ideas of that time, they were kept secret, because if the wrong people found about them, the books were burned, and sometimes their owners as well.

If tomorrow a Sapphire port is announced for PS2 at the price of 1500 yen, you are worried. Otrageous, spineless worms that are the masses can now buy a masterwork that they can't even begin to understand. Because only I, the landlord, the conoisseur, the expert can comprehend its beauty. Sapphire's programmers were messengers by God himself, carrying a message to me (and the few worthy) and now God's Decree is in the hands of infidels. The simple fact that they are not willing to spend $500.000 on a Sapphire genuine copy tells about their lowly nature. In their arrogance they demand to pay nothing for God's message to humanity, this is the undeniable proof that they can't realize its value. They, really, really... are soulless clay. GTA should be more than enough to please these lowlife creatures. And in fact, we can fathom that Sengoku Aces & Tengai's sales won't surpass Gran Turismo 4 sales in Europe: the final proof that these weaklings don't deserve what they're given.

Your worst enemy is not Sony, really. It's Gutenberg.

And you criticize Psikyo packs the exact same way as as industrial press is criticized. Because, of course a Dreamcast Morrigan in Gunbird, is something exquisite and rare as a finely crafted manuscript that took an entire life for a monk to complete it. How anyone could want the horrible paperback pressed with lead and distributed in any bookstore?

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

. As far as shmups go, unless you just have your head up Cave's ass there still isn't a better console... the top 5 Saturn shmups are still exclusive to it... I really don't see how it losing Metal Black as an exclusive is "destroying its library".

you stick to your battle garegga,game tengoku,Batsugun,rsg and we'll stick to mushi,espgaluda,dragon blaze,gradius V,

[BulletMagnet]

A whooooole lotta stuff.

Not only do we have "epic shmups" around here, but also epic posts. Agree or disagree I enjoyed reading this, just for the scope and authorship, heh heh.

As an owner of RSG and a couple of other relatively "collectible" games (though not a "real" collector, as I try to get most of my games on the cheap, and am never going to get into PCBs or the like), I find myself glad that I own some "originals" as opposed to later ports or whatnot, but not because I think "no one else can appreciate them," or anything like that. I've honestly never gotten worked up at news of a port of a "rare" game I own; I've simply never seen a reason to. Nor do I really consider newer ports "crappy" (in most cases, at least), but I do consider them, to some extent, to be (again, in many cases but not all) "basic," along the lines of what you mentioned about everyone being ecstatic back in the day about an accurate arcade port. These days when companies are porting an older game they're obviously not going to tack on as many bells and whistles as they did when the games were "it," as opposed to a re-release; as I said in an earlier post, this doesn't diminish the value of the "core" game any as long as the "basic" port is competent, but having the little bonuses on the originals, while they hardly make or break a game in most cases, is a nice feeling to have, at least for me.

As such, I have no objections to stuff being ported, as long as the original game remains intact as it should, nor do I consider those who buy a re-release "inferior gamers" or anything, and I'm glad they get the chance to try stuff they previously couldn't (heck, I've bought several "modern" ports myself, and am glad to have them). But, while I'm not overly proud of them, I still think having the originals is nice; just not necessary.

[PaCrappa]

That was beautiful Turrican. Well done.

Pa

[sethsez]

a lot of stuff

Exactly. Sometimes I get the feeling that this board is full of people who would rather dissect and collect games than play and enjoy them. Brilliant scoring systems are ruined by a slight filter, amazing level designs are crippled by some missing frames, fantastic boss patterns are brought to their knees by the lack of a sound test, and spectacular weapon systems are gutted by having been on another platform first.

[jp]

I'm not all that worried about them porting Saturn games...

Given that I've got a collection that would rival even yours, I'm not worried either... but the PS2 continues to cut into the Saturn exclsuives (with no end in sight) as well as provide a ton of its own exclusives (not to mention the Genesis and Dreamcast games that have jumped ship - Sonics, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, KOF2k+, now Treasure's Megadrive games, etc.). I heard the Dragon Force double pack is coming for the PS2 (if it's not out already). More will follow. Is it really all that unthinkable that Battle Garegga will appear on a retro pack for the PS3? Or Radiant Silvergun ported for the first time? I think it's only a matter of time. There will be a point when the PS3 not only has a ton of its own great games, but all the games for the PS2, PS1 and many of the better games from systems (Dreamcast, Saturn, Genesis and SMS) and arcade boards from years past...


These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn... One of the things I love about the Saturn are the tons of great games in generes that I enjoy that were only done for that system. There was a time, not long ago, when you simply couldn't recommend a better machine for shooters or fighters. Those days are gone. So while these Sega Ages ports and other collection packs (Psikyo, Taito, Capcom, Playmore/SNK, etc) don't worry me, they do diminish the shine and lure of owning a Saturn (or Dreamcast or Genesis). I don't blame Sega or the other companies for producing compilation packs... they are very popular and it does give a wider audience a chance to play these great games which may have otherwise languished in the back-catalogs of machines long since departed from this world.

IMO, that's like saying that the Sonic Collections for the Game Cube depreciate the Genesis, and make owning one a waste of money. They don't; there's still plenty of gaming goodness on that console. Same with the Saturn, there are plenty of great shmups, and non-shmups, that will most likely never see the light of day on the PS2. JP is right; the Saturn still has the best, and it's not going anywhere.

However, I hardly think Sega can't put out anything but shit anymore. Watch this video and tell me that Sega's completely hopeless:

http://www.xboxyde.com/leech_1399_en.html

Just because they port their older stuff, that doesn't mean a damn thing, IMO. Midway, Capcom, they're all porting their old stuff, and that doesn't mean that they're on the verge of collapse. I'd STILL rather buy a domestically developed Sega game then a domestic game from a lot of other developers.

You're right Dave, in a sense. Sega CAN do some impressive work every now and again. Virtua Cop 3, maybe these "Xbox 360" titles, Feel the Magic, Outrun 2, etc. were all great. But you cannot deny that Sega isn't half the company they were a decade or 5 or even 3 years ago. But its easy to forget that when you've got the Astro Boy, Sonic Heroes, Iron Phoenix, Headhunter 2, Shining Tears, etc. all glaring at you in the face.

Street Fighter Alpha 2 is better on PS, especially played on PS2 to quicken the loadtimes. And Alpha 3 is arguably better on PS as well...worse graphics, but the sound is far better.

In your mind alone Neon.

Are you trying to diminish the love between a man and his console? That's a sacred bond, you know, as important and meaningful as any relationship you might have.

Yes... I post a lot when I'm bored at work... thus I must have no outside life what-so-ever.

*Looks at 172 original jp games and my newly acquired 5th modified Saturn and smiles back.*

Holy shit! You have 5 Saturns!? And modded!? Holy shit dude, those were like... not even officially released. And 172 JP games? Fuck! I bet you got a few US and PAL games to go with that too. I can't even fathom 5 whole Saturns and 172 games... thats just craz-ay.

I'm going to sell my Saturn collection right now and buy a second AES and the Metal Slug series, then I'm going to march right over to Neo-Geo.com and show xtoo_shortx and shawn who the real collector is!


Joking aside...

Treasure ported SM to the PS1 and Ikaruga to the GC. They are not opposed to ports - they just don't do it very often.

Did you just compare Treasure porting 6 month old games to a different "same-gen" console to Treasure porting a 7 year old game to a console 2 generations away? I mean, Ikaruga and SM were done to get better sales at a time closer to their release... not because Treasure looked back a decade and said "Its time we just brought Ikaruga back!"

I assume these are in quotes because you attribute them to my original post. I never used either term - what I said was that as more and more games that get ported to the PS2, the shine of the Saturn diminishes since there are less and less games that can only be played (at home) on that system. However, after reading yours, Kiken's and other's posts on this subject, I'm talked off my ledge and do agree that there is still tons of reasons to recommend the Saturn. I'm not jumping ship - the Saturn is still my favorite machine and I'll continue to collect and play the best games for it. I do like the extras that the Saturn offers over the 'bare-bones' ports (though, in the end, as long as the gameplay is basically in-tact, I'm fine with a bare-bones port).

Bravo.

I think that you should play whatever games you enjoy on whatever console you enjoy them on. But people invarriably ask what is the best console for genere X and I do think about which consoles I would recommend for someone looking to get into the hobby. Up until this year, my recommendation of a shooter console was always the Saturn - hands down and unequivocal. But times have changed - these days there is too much qualitiy on the import PS2 (with PS1 library) with a wider base of games to choose from and new scrolling shooting games still appear on the horizon. Does that mean that a Saturn is not recommended? Hell, no. I still recommend it - but it would be #2 on my list of people looking to get into shooters at home

I reiterate... quality >>>> quantity. I would take Hyper Duel, Radiant Silvergun, Souky, and Battle Garegga over most other console's entire shmup libraries.

Unless you enjoy Seibu Kaihatsu (Raiden series), Compile (Zanac Neo) or want the best Gradius (Gaiden, V) games or the largest library of Psikyo games (with Sengoku Ace, Dragon Blaze). Cave is amazingly well represented on the PS1/2 but it's hardly the only reason to recommend it (just talking shooters). Saturn has it's great games too - though the number of quality shooters you can only play (at home) on the Saturn no longer matches the quality shooters available on the PS1/2, in my opinion. In the end, I think it's best to own a wide variety of consoles and seek out the best games for each.

Thats really all you. Personally, I can still enjoy Gradius, Cave (well, not enjoy it), and the best of Psikyo on my Saturn. Can I enjoy Raizing, Tecno Soft, or the later Cotton games on the PS1/PS2? No.


And if I'm coming off like a dick... I'm tired... and I am a dick when I'm tired.

I don't think any of you seriously plans to become millionaire thanks to your optical junk collection. So it's not the case to worry too much if a game that used to go for $70 now goes for $55 on ebay. Besides, face it, you are more attached to these shiny discs than to your relatives, so don't worry if price drops as you would never sell them anyway.

Well... I plan to be stupid rich at some point after college. *shrugs*

And I love the "you love games more than people!!!! L0L!!!!" things you guys have going. Because you know, this is the internet... and this is where all people's true day to life social personalities blossom for all the other geeks to see.

About shmups port... When 32bit arrived people were enthusiast about arcade perfect conversions. Now if an arcade gets a straight port on PS2 "it's not enough, because it misses the extras of the previous port". You people cannot anymore talk about SS exclusive, so you end talking about, err, exclusive stages and ships added in the SS rev. Sad, really.

Not just Saturn fans... I've seen people trying to justify all kinds of crazy shit about stupid extras. Thunder Force V, Souky, and Darius Gaiden are better on the PS1 because of extra movies? Mmmhmmmm. And I only equate "extra ships" and the like in the list I'm making for my "I finished collecting Saturn shmups here's all the info anyone would ever need on anything shmuppy on the Saturn so now you can all quit asking about this shit 50 times a week in the main forum" post. But if that makes you "unhappy"...

The whole thing is absurd since, you've got it all wrong. If a game like Sengoku Aces gets a port after all these years, this shows the game is appreciated enough to be sold again. You should take pride, saying that you were right to recognize the game's qualities back in the days. And you should be happy that's available once again to mass consumer to experience it.

If 2001 - A Space Odyssey is remastered and brought to theatres again, critics rejoyce. If Citizen Kane is released on DVD for everyone's pleasure, cinephiles are happy.

I think YOU'RE missing the point here... so let me break this down for you.

Console wars are a fun past time. At least, thats how I view it. I get online, I rant about the Saturn, some people have fun reading it, I have fun typing it, and then there's people like you who have to write me a thesis on why I'm silly for having fun on a message board, and then there's people like Neon who say things like "0MZGOZZ0RZ!!!! RADIANT SILVERGUN IS BETTER ON THE PS1!!!! IT HAS TEH EXTRA SOUND EFFECT!!!" Which, really, it amazes me how often people like Neon can find these "tragic sound flaws" in games whereas I, a certified Audio/Visual Technician for a University, completely miss it.

But I digress. My point is this: This is console war fun. If you don't like it, fine, thats cool, I don't really care. Do I really hate Sony? Hells yes I do. Do I incorporate that in my day to day life as open as I do online? Hells no I don't.

But for some reason you felt the need to compare console wars to movies and books, so let me break it down, yet again.

Movies... and books... do not appear... on different platforms... that are typically supported... by only a handful of companies. There is no one out there saying "My Sony DVD player has the best library of movies!" or "I only buy from Penguin Press!!! They have the best books!!!" For that is stupid, and pointless, as DVDs are available across all platforms and books are just books... period.

With a console, a "fanboy", as we like to say when we don't have an argument and simply wish to discredit the person we disagree with, supports a console, or a console maker, because they feel that that console has the best "library". And for some of us, its fun to rant and rave at each other online over this subject because, well, you just can't get that kind of thing going well in the "really real world".


This has nothing to do with me being a "collector". My "collector" aspect of life lives in a world with my video game soundtracks, rare system models, Panzer Dragoon collection, and my Dad's Marvel comic book collection from the 60s-70s. When Marvel reprints the Green Goblin comics, I don't talk about it because I don't care. I own (or rather, my Dad owns) every comic Green Goblin appears in up until Harry dies, in the original form, and as a collector, I know those will NEVER depreciate in value. If the Panzer Dragoon or other videogame OSTs were getting rereleased, I wouldn't care, because I own the originals. If the Hitachi Navi GPS HiSaturn was getting rereleased... I would just be weirded the fuck out and would buy another one... maybe even 2 or 3.


But this is beside the point. My issue with "remakes, ports, etc." stems from the destruction of game console legacies and the like. The Saturn is a great fucking console because of cool shit like NiGHTS, Panzer Dragoon Trilogy, Guardian Heroes, Taromaru, Radiant Silvergun, etc. If these are all ported, the Saturn slowly becomes less of a great fucking console as the experience can be had elsewhere. And this is why I hate Sega Ages, because in my eyes, Sega is destroying the legacies of their own fucking consoles that the people who built they're fucking company busted their damn ass to build to begin with, and to me that shows that Sega couldn't give two shits and a fuck about those of us who were supporting them from day one. Instead, its like their selling our past experiences out so they can get by with being lazy and not focusing on new games for the new masses.

[sethsez]

But this is beside the point. My issue with "remakes, ports, etc." stems from the destruction of game console legacies and the like. The Saturn is a great fucking console because of cool shit like NiGHTS, Panzer Dragoon Trilogy, Guardian Heroes, Taromaru, Radiant Silvergun, etc. If these are all ported, the Saturn slowly becomes less of a great fucking console as the experience can be had elsewhere. And this is why I hate Sega Ages, because in my eyes, Sega is destroying the legacies of their own fucking consoles that the people who built they're fucking company busted their damn ass to build to begin with, and to me that shows that Sega couldn't give two shits and a fuck about those of us who were supporting them from day one. Instead, its like their selling our past experiences out so they can get by with being lazy and not focusing on new games for the new masses.

Yes.

And this is a stupid mindset based on an attatchment to hardware rather than an enjoyment of the actual content.

Should Sega just say "hey old fans, we'll throw you a bone by letting you be the only people to play a certain game!" In what alternate dimension do you exist where this is rational? Sega is porting the games because people want them. If you think that diminishes the quality or legacy or whatever of the version you own, that's your own little neurosis to deal with. Most people are just going to go "hey, a great game is getting a re-release so more people can experience it, awesome!" and be done with it.

[dave4shmups]

You're right Dave, in a sense. Sega CAN do some impressive work every now and again. Virtua Cop 3, maybe these "Xbox 360" titles, Feel the Magic, Outrun 2, etc. were all great. But you cannot deny that Sega isn't half the company they were a decade or 5 or even 3 years ago. But its easy to forget that when you've got the Astro Boy, Sonic Heroes, Iron Phoenix, Headhunter 2, Shining Tears, etc. all glaring at you in the face.

Good point JP, I'm not arguing that Sega's as good as they used to be, just that, IMO, there are a lot worse gaming companies out there. At least Sega isn't glutting the home console market with cookie-cutter games like EA is. Crap like what EA is doing was one of the main contributing factors behind the console crash of '84.

[sethsez]

Good point JP, I'm not arguing that Sega's as good as they used to be, just that, IMO, there are a lot worse gaming companies out there. At least Sega isn't glutting the home console market with cookie-cutter games like EA is. Crap like what EA is doing was one of the main contributing factors behind the console crash of '84.

Ironic, considering for a few years Sega was EA's main competitor for sports games, which people here loathe.

[dave4shmups]

But this is beside the point. My issue with "remakes, ports, etc." stems from the destruction of game console legacies and the like. The Saturn is a great fucking console because of cool shit like NiGHTS, Panzer Dragoon Trilogy, Guardian Heroes, Taromaru, Radiant Silvergun, etc. If these are all ported, the Saturn slowly becomes less of a great fucking console as the experience can be had elsewhere. And this is why I hate Sega Ages, because in my eyes, Sega is destroying the legacies of their own fucking consoles that the people who built they're fucking company busted their damn ass to build to begin with, and to me that shows that Sega couldn't give two shits and a fuck about those of us who were supporting them from day one. Instead, its like their selling our past experiences out so they can get by with being lazy and not focusing on new games for the new masses.

Yes.

And this is a stupid mindset based on an attatchment to hardware rather than an enjoyment of the actual content.

Should Sega just say "hey old fans, we'll throw you a bone by letting you be the only people to play a certain game!" In what alternate dimension do you exist where this is rational? Sega is porting the games because people want them. If you think that diminishes the quality or legacy or whatever of the version you own, that's your own little neurosis to deal with. Most people are just going to go "hey, a great game is getting a re-release so more people can experience it, awesome!" and be done with it.

"Only people to play a certain game"?! As if people can't easily purchase the games in the Sega Ages series on multiple other formats? Gimme a brake man! Even if someone doesn't own a Saturn, they can STILL play Sega hits like After Burner II, and Galaxy Force II, on a friggin' Genesis, and play even more old Sega classics by getting a Power Base Converter.

And if you want to go back even further into Sega's back catalogue of games, you can get an Atari 2600, or Colecovision and get even MORE oldschool Sega gaming goodness.

So how is it "rational" to say that only "old" Sega fans can experience Sega's greatest games? It isn't, and moreover it's just flat-out not true.

[sethsez]

"Only people to play a certain game"?! As if people can't easily purchase the games in the Sega Ages series on multiple other formats? Gimme a brake man! Even if someone doesn't own a Saturn, they can STILL play Sega hits like After Burner II, and Galaxy Force II, on a friggin' Genesis, and play even more old Sega classics by getting a Power Base Converter.

And if you want to go back even further into Sega's back catalogue of games, you can get an Atari 2600, or Colecovision and get even MORE oldschool Sega gaming goodness.

So how is it "rational" to say that only "old" Sega fans can experience Sega's greatest games? It isn't, and moreover it's just flat-out not true.

Right. Which is why this whole "legacy," "old fans" thing jp is going on about is bullshit. The games matter, not the systems they're on, and if Radiant Silvergun is somehow rereleased, it doesn't suddenly make jp's copy worse.

[llabnip]

I can't even fathom 5 whole Saturns

I'll send you a postcard of them if you promise not to drool

I wasn't trying to brag - only to show some perspective on my love for the Saturn.

Can I enjoy Raizing, Tecno Soft, or the later Cotton games on the PS1/PS2?

Sure. Raizing (Sokyu), Technosoft (Thunderforce V - Perfect System) and Success (Cotton - Magical Night Dreams) were all released on the PSX. Are they perfect... no. Are they playable and fun... yes. As far as I know, exactly 2 Cotton games were released for both systems (only 1 of which is common between them). Those games are not the best reasons to recommend the Playstation hardware - but they are nice options to add to an amazingly strong shooter lineup. In any event, you can get a bit of a Success, Technosoft and Raizing fix on the PSX.

[jp]

"Only people to play a certain game"?! As if people can't easily purchase the games in the Sega Ages series on multiple other formats? Gimme a brake man! Even if someone doesn't own a Saturn, they can STILL play Sega hits like After Burner II, and Galaxy Force II, on a friggin' Genesis, and play even more old Sega classics by getting a Power Base Converter.

And if you want to go back even further into Sega's back catalogue of games, you can get an Atari 2600, or Colecovision and get even MORE oldschool Sega gaming goodness.

So how is it "rational" to say that only "old" Sega fans can experience Sega's greatest games? It isn't, and moreover it's just flat-out not true.

Right. Which is why this whole "legacy," "old fans" thing jp is going on about is bullshit. The games matter, not the systems they're on, and if Radiant Silvergun is somehow rereleased, it doesn't suddenly make jp's copy worse.

Don't like to read much do you? Because obviously you missed the whole end part of my post. It doesn't make my copy worse, but it makes the Saturn "lose its shine" as alpha pointed out. And its just lame to me that Sega would destroy their own consoles. And I must laugh at this whole "NEw people get to experience..." bullshit. Its fans and collectors that are buying this shit, not "new people".

[Dylan1CC]

Yup, this is good news but who needs updated visuals for these gems? How hard could it be to at least also include the original versions of the games on the disc?

Gunstar Heroes doesn't need "improved" graphics. So...no originals included on the disc means I am still willing to punch my wallet in the gut and get Alien Soldier someday off ebay.

EDIT: Panzer Dragoon's dated jaggy 3D polygons (bless 'em) couldn't hurt from a bit of polish though.

Who said there would be no originals included? From what I read in the news bytes, I get the impression that the games will be the originals. D3 is no longer involved with the SEGA Ages collections. SEGA is taking over. This will probably mean more originals and less horrid remakes like Golden Axe.

I hope you are right. Yeah I was looking at the flyer in another thread and it does seem to indicate the good old original revs.

EDIT: I wanna add, Turrican made a great post on folks' feelings on ports, ect.

[Turrican]

I think YOU'RE missing the point here... so let me break this down for you.

Console wars are a fun past time. At least, thats how I view it. I get online, I rant about the Saturn, some people have fun reading it, I have fun typing it, and then there's people like you who have to write me a thesis on why I'm silly for having fun on a message board, and then there's people like Neon who say things like "0MZGOZZ0RZ!!!! RADIANT SILVERGUN IS BETTER ON THE PS1!!!! IT HAS TEH EXTRA SOUND EFFECT!!!" Which, really, it amazes me how often people like Neon can find these "tragic sound flaws" in games whereas I, a certified Audio/Visual Technician for a University, completely miss it.

But I digress. My point is this: This is console war fun. If you don't like it, fine, thats cool, I don't really care. Do I really hate Sony? Hells yes I do. Do I incorporate that in my day to day life as open as I do online? Hells no I don't.

With a console, a "fanboy", as we like to say when we don't have an argument and simply wish to discredit the person we disagree with, supports a console, or a console maker, because they feel that that console has the best "library". And for some of us, its fun to rant and rave at each other online over this subject because, well, you just can't get that kind of thing going well in the "really real world".

On the other hand, my friend. I perfectly hit the right point.

There you are, admitting that you're a fanboy that gets pleasure in this nonsense argument. I realized this well before and didn't need confirmation, and I acted in the only way possible: writing clever and "epic" stuff (thanks Bulletmagnet, Pa ) to add fire and give you something to rant over. I made your day and you don't know it. Were all people supporters of your holy cause you'd die of bore.

You see, I too wrote and had great fun writing a thesis on why you're silly. It was too tempting.

P.S. My respects to your dad! I too am reader of Amazing Spider-man since the Lee-Ditko days! Indeed, the death of Harry was a wise point to stop, but I continue to this day. Although it would be probably more fun to talk directly with your dad on the stories' content, than with you about, hmm, how cool is be a collector and how shiny these comic-books look in their mylar wrap. Ask him if he had found time to read "Sins Past" (Amazing #509-514) and what he thinks of it.

edit: oh yeah, and while you're there, ask your daddy if Marvel Comics reprinting Green Goblin's episodes again and again detracts "shine" from his issues. He'd probably will tell you that he's happy if kids these days enjoy these stories again. (btw, having a Spider-man reader as your dad must be very cool!)

[sethsez]

Because obviously you missed the whole end part of my post. It doesn't make my copy worse, but it makes the Saturn "lose its shine" as alpha pointed out. And its just lame to me that Sega would destroy their own consoles.

What does Sega have to gain from keeping the Saturn's "shine"? They don't make a dime on it anymore and haven't for many years. It's not like they're destroying something that still makes them money (even though I don't think rereleasing old games destroys the systems they were on). And frankly, a system's importance only comes from the games that are on it. Why do you have such a devotion to the actual hardware if it's the software that made it what it is?

And I must laugh at this whole "NEw people get to experience..." bullshit. Its fans and collectors that are buying this shit, not "new people".

You honestly think games like Alien Soldier and Radiant Silgergun wouldn't move copies to people who've always wanted to play them and never had the chance? Rerelease Radiant Silvergun at $20, and I'll guarantee most of the people who buy it will have never played it before.

[BulletMagnet]

And its just lame to me that Sega would destroy their own consoles.

As much as you hate seeing Sony and Sega compared, I'm afraid that they're both in the business for the same reason, and always have been. Both of them, despite the images that each tends to evoke in the minds of various gamers, create games to make money. Apparently the gamers "who helped to build Sega" didn't buy enough stuff, for whatever reason, to keep Sega in the console race, so it's abandoned its previous console efforts and moved on. Any company of ANY kind, video game or otherwise, will do the same if it wants to stay in business. Sega's actions are nothing personal, it's simply business-world survival. Marketing myopia is the surest thing that'll wipe you off the map.

Granted, I love my Saturn and Dreamcast, but they were created for the exact same reason as the Playstation and PS2, and every other system ever made. The other systems won, and you can bet the farm that Sega isn't the least bit nostalgic about the old days, except from a monetary perspective. Any rational gamer will expect the same treatment from any video game maker; your money matters. You don't.

[Specineff]

And frankly, a system's importance only comes from the games that are on it. Why do you have such a devotion to the actual hardware if it's the software that made it what it is?

Erm, because my Xbox won't run RSG, Nights or Panzer Saga no matter how many times I try to boot the game?

[sethsez]

And frankly, a system's importance only comes from the games that are on it. Why do you have such a devotion to the actual hardware if it's the software that made it what it is?

Erm, because my Xbox won't run RSG, Nights or Panzer Saga no matter how many times I try to boot the game?

Right. You care about the system because of the games, not the other way around (ie, you like the Saturn because it has Nights, you don't like Nights just because it's on the Saturn). If the exact same games, in the exact same form, were available on the Xbox, why would it be anything other than a good thing?

I keep my laserdisc player around because there are several movies that still aren't on DVD, but I don't have any particular fondness for the player itself. It plays some content I enjoy, but in and of itself there's nothing special about it, and if the movies went to DVD, I wouldn't complain about my laserdisc player being devalued. It's just a piece of hardware with no intrinsic value of its own.

[99pence]

Why is it there is all these pages of useless talk before a game is out and when it is released its hard to find out even trivial things about it.


Q: Is it the same as the original?
A: ...
Q: Is it low res?
A: ...
Q: Is it anygood?
A: ...
Q: Is it rare?
A: Blah blah blah. I'm not a collector I play games. I only play games I like. I'd get it if it came out on the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast is dead. There's a Dreamcast called Fred. There's a Dreamcast that's red, got fed and went to bed.

[jp]

P.S. My respects to your dad! I too am reader of Amazing Spider-man since the Lee-Ditko days! Indeed, the death of Harry was a wise point to stop, but I continue to this day. Although it would be probably more fun to talk directly with your dad on the stories' content, than with you about, hmm, how cool is be a collector and how shiny these comic-books look in their mylar wrap. Ask him if he had found time to read "Sins Past" (Amazing #509-514) and what he thinks of it.

edit: oh yeah, and while you're there, ask your daddy if Marvel Comics reprinting Green Goblin's episodes again and again detracts "shine" from his issues. He'd probably will tell you that he's happy if kids these days enjoy these stories again. (btw, having a Spider-man reader as your dad must be very cool!)

Right... because I never read his comics... hell, it was me buying them after awhile leading up to Harry's death. Though I'm more of a Carnage collector myself.

[TVG]

console war shit

i can understand that writing that stuff is fun when you're bored out of your mind, but reading it is, well, not. in fact it hurts the eyes.