Explain to me why the Dreamcast deserves it's crazy fan base

[louisg]

The funny thing about the DC is that Sega NEVER LISTENED. Fans that would have bought the games begged for Shenmue 3, they begged for Sega Rally 3, Scud Race and many others and they just didn't get released. I heard Core Design made a Scud Race track but it was a demo and never released.

Wait, what? Why would Sega release Shenmue 3 on DC? And I am assuming there hasn't been a 3 period because 2 possibly didn't sell well. This is like everything wrong with fans right here. Also, there was nothing short of a ton of arcade ports to that thing.. plus the crazy fans finally got a new Sonic game. I really don't see how it was a lack of listening. This criticism does not make sense.

[neorichieb1971]

Well I may be crazy but if I had a fan base I would make them happy first and foremost.

The neo geo wouldn't have lasted 15 years without KOF and metal slug. The DC is kept alive by homebrew now, Sega are not even interested in the machine. If they released more games I am sure they would sell if they were half decent. There must be quite a few naomi releases that never saw a DC release.

Sega, are they even a company anymore? What the hell do they do?

[Mortificator]

Make games for the consoles that more than a handful of people own.

[GaijinPunch]

Well I may be crazy but if I had a fan base I would make them happy first and foremost.

Specifically, they asked for sequels of their famous IPs, but it was against Sega's plan at the time. And, they paid the price for it. Look at the state of things now... companies can't survive apparently w/o putting out inferior old versions of games current hardware.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, I have had one since day one, and i've never been that into it at all. It did start with a lot of promise, but got killed off too quick. And a lot of the popular games that it had, just don't appeal to me much(Crazy Taxi, Chu Chu Rocket, etc.). I'm also not that much into fighters.

It did have some sharp games, but most of those have been ported to the PS2 or whatever.

I barely have any games for it anymore. Maybe 8 or less. I love Bangai-O, so that's a plus. But there really doesn't seem to be much on it, that appeals to me.

So yeah, I don't understand the rampant fans. Also, most of the shooters on it, were just "OK". It's true!

[louisg]

Well I may be crazy but if I had a fan base I would make them happy first and foremost.

The neo geo wouldn't have lasted 15 years without KOF and metal slug. The DC is kept alive by homebrew now, Sega are not even interested in the machine. If they released more games I am sure they would sell if they were half decent. There must be quite a few naomi releases that never saw a DC release.

It's true, they were interested in coming out with original stuff like Chu Chu Rocket and Crazy Taxi, but you also got tons of Sega fan stuff too (I'll list it to put it in perspective if you want). The DC, AFAIR, had a really huge launch too, so it's not as if it didn't get off to a good start. You're making it sound like the reason the system tanked was that Sega ignored the fans. You also have to realize that the system only lasted a couple years (late 1998 to 2001?), so something like Daytona coming out right when the system died really *wasn't* too far into the generation.

Sega might sell a few games here and there if they were still releasing for the DC, but probably nothing like the numbers they got selling stuff for the PS2 or XBox, which actually still had a user base come 2002. AFAIR, as PS2 launch approached, people were holding off on buying a DC (and selling them back) or buying PS2s instead, and I don't think releasing, say, Sega Strike Fighter or making a new The Ooze game would have fixed that. Now, do I personally wish they had stuck with the DC and not pulled out of hardware? Hell yes. They really just became another distributor after that, and shifting their focus away from arcade titles has hurt the game designs too (Super Monkey Ball 2 vs 1 for example).

Also, the Neo Geo didn't have KOF at the beginning-- that was a really late release considering the system came out around 1989. It's not like that was this long-running series that SNK was keeping going on the NG, it's just that they eventually stumbled around and found that fighting games sold really well and happened to make a really good one. Metal Slug was even later. If SNK were catering to the fans, you would've had a new Athena or Ikari game on NeoGeo Why must SNK always let down their fans like that?!! They never listen!

Anyway, SNK ended up actually holding onto their fans, constantly making newer better versions of their popular games. And they went bust anyway. But, they did it with style, something I almost wish Sega had done since their best games were all pre-2004 anyway

[Nico87]

The funny thing about the DC is that Sega NEVER LISTENED. Fans that would have bought the games begged for Shenmue 3, they begged for Sega Rally 3, Scud Race and many others and they just didn't get released.
I wonder what Sega was doing in all that time.

What? When did Sony/MS/Nintendo release a game because "fans begged for" it?

[szycag]

evil_ash_xero: You sound like someone who hasn't tried Deka 2 and Zombie Revenge.

Point taken about those other quirky beat-em-ups people named, just saying that was still a time where you could see pretty much direct console ports of arcade beat-em-ups outside of Sega Ages, compilations or whatever. But someone could probably call me out on that too. Console style beat em ups are great too, God Hand is obviously one of the best games ever.

[neorichieb1971]

The funny thing about the DC is that Sega NEVER LISTENED. Fans that would have bought the games begged for Shenmue 3, they begged for Sega Rally 3, Scud Race and many others and they just didn't get released.
I wonder what Sega was doing in all that time.

What? When did Sony/MS/Nintendo release a game because "fans begged for" it?

Well thats true. But Sega fans shouted louder and it landed on deaf ears. So whilst people were saying release Daytona, they released Chu Chu rocket instead. Surely it wasn't that hard to port a model 2 game to DC?

Sega had the tale tell signs after Soul Calibur. Namco only followed it with Mr Driller. Had Namco gone the extra mile and put 2 or 3 big name titles out there I am sure it would have made a difference. The other thing that hurt sega was the JP launch releasing first. Isn't it Segas worst selling territory?

[louisg]

Well thats true. But Sega fans shouted louder and it landed on deaf ears. So whilst people were saying release Daytona, they released Chu Chu rocket instead. Surely it wasn't that hard to port a model 2 game to DC?

That'd depend on all kinds of really specific factors. The technology was there, but whether the game could have been ported easily is another matter. It seems like Daytona would have obviously been a better porting choice than Dynamite Cop (model 3) Maybe Dynamite Cop was a huge hit in Japanese arcades though, who knows. Daytona already also had a few ports to Saturn, so maybe they were trying to avoid reminding people of that failed (in the US) system!

I don't think Chu Chu Rocket is *instead* of Daytona. It's from Sonic Team and not one of their usual arcade teams, for one... it's also a mad clever game. I'd be more bummed if that never saw the light of day than I am that there wasn't yet another Daytona USA port at launch.

[neorichieb1971]

Well forgive me if I am wrong, but when I was a kid growing up Sega had cutting edge technology and people expected that from their consoles. I don't think Chu Chu rocket fits that category. Its not a system seller. If Sega would have done some basic research in the arcades and asked people what they liked about SR, Daytona, VF and asked if they wanted more Powerdrift, more Space Harrier then I'm sure people would have given them a good idea of what direction to go in.

I know what your going to say "Planet Harriers came out blah blah".. Its not in the same league as Space Harrier gameplay wise. Although its prettier.

Sony and Microsoft might not make what fans cry out for all the time, but Sony redone GOW collection, redid Ico/SoTC because of fans. Because of that there will be more fans and the snowball effect takes place again. Believe me I don't really like over saturation I complain about it all the time, but in this case the games deserve to be preserved (and bettered) if possible.

Sony have done a lot wrong imo, but they are still leagues ahead of Sega. MS I can't really comment on, but the 360 has a die hard following that is almost bullet proof, so again they must be doing something (or alot) right.

[dunpeal2064]

Well forgive me if I am wrong, but when I was a kid growing up Sega had cutting edge technology and people expected that from their consoles. I don't think Chu Chu rocket fits that category. Its not a system seller. If Sega would have done some basic research in the arcades and asked people what they liked about SR, Daytona, VF and asked if they wanted more Powerdrift, more Space Harrier then I'm sure people would have given them a good idea of what direction to go in.

I know what your going to say "Planet Harriers came out blah blah".. Its not in the same league as Space Harrier gameplay wise. Although its prettier.

Sony and Microsoft might not make what fans cry out for all the time, but Sony redone GOW collection, redid Ico/SoTC because of fans. Because of that there will be more fans and the snowball effect takes place again. Believe me I don't really like over saturation I complain about it all the time, but in this case the games deserve to be preserved (and bettered) if possible.

Sony have done a lot wrong imo, but they are still leagues ahead of Sega. MS I can't really comment on, but the 360 has a die hard following that is almost bullet proof, so again they must be doing something (or alot) right.

I think comparing Sega to Sony is silly, they both had their hayday in seperate eras. Of course they are leagues ahead now, sga is dead hardware-wise

[louisg]

Well forgive me if I am wrong, but when I was a kid growing up Sega had cutting edge technology and people expected that from their consoles. I don't think Chu Chu rocket fits that category. Its not a system seller. If Sega would have done some basic research in the arcades and asked people what they liked about SR, Daytona, VF and asked if they wanted more Powerdrift, more Space Harrier then I'm sure people would have given them a good idea of what direction to go in.

I know what your going to say "Planet Harriers came out blah blah".. Its not in the same league as Space Harrier gameplay wise. Although its prettier.

Sony and Microsoft might not make what fans cry out for all the time, but Sony redone GOW collection, redid Ico/SoTC because of fans. Because of that there will be more fans and the snowball effect takes place again. Believe me I don't really like over saturation I complain about it all the time, but in this case the games deserve to be preserved (and bettered) if possible.

Sony have done a lot wrong imo, but they are still leagues ahead of Sega. MS I can't really comment on, but the 360 has a die hard following that is almost bullet proof, so again they must be doing something (or alot) right.

I have to disagree. You don't really get much better preservation of old games than something like the Sega Ages PS2 games (which might have appeared on DC if it hadn't bit the dust), and even during the DC's lifespan they attempted that Genesis collection. It was poorly done, but it showed that they were interested in preserving their old games even on the other side of the decade. Like I said also, there were also a huge amount of good arcade ports in the DC's lifetime, many in the first year. It's a balance; the DC can't just be all arcade ports if they were going to try and make a go of the system (as much as we both would have liked that).

I'd wager that none of this legacy stuff sells systems. Arcades were dying even then. The fans already bought one, and everyone else wanted bigger and better games. I think a big problem was around that time, people were really expecting a lot more from their games than just arcade ports. For example, if you check out mainstream reviews of Crazy Taxi or Super Monkey Ball, often they're along the lines of "the main game was O.K., but what we really like are all the minigames".

Fans generally wind up being a minority, which is honestly not a bad thing because it can keep things fresh. I wouldn't assume Sony is catering to the fans as much as miscalculating the mainstream and then hanging onto what they have left...

[greg]

Funny how we were all clamoring for Nights 2 and Burning Rangers 2, and Sega just wanted to do release all new stuff. Now they just release one Sonic game after another, and they released Nights 2 on the Wii, which I'm told isn't that good and is pretty much a rehash of the original. Sega has released Fantasy Zone and all sorts of Sega Ages for the PS2, and it's a shame they didn't do those for the DC (except for that Yu Suzuki book).

Sega had the tale tell signs after Soul Calibur. Namco only followed it with Mr Driller. Had Namco gone the extra mile and put 2 or 3 big name titles out there I am sure it would have made a difference. The other thing that hurt sega was the JP launch releasing first. Isn't it Segas worst selling territory?

You're right about Namco stiffing the DC, but you're wrong about Japan being Sega's worst territory. Check out Segagagadomain and check out the crapload of stuff that came out for the Mega CD, while over here we got freaking, puke-inducing Kriss Kross and INXS music videos. And I'll tell you that into the late 90's, the Saturn had much bigger selections in stores than the N64 in Japan. That's what's dumb about what happened with the Dreamcast. The DC was more popular in the USA than it was in Japan, because the dumb Japanese gamers were ignoring it for some reason. I don't have any insight into that, however when they announced they'd pull the plug on the DC in December 2000, I was devastated. I'd just moved to Japan that summer, and already Sega was killing their console. I'd just bought my pink LE Sakura Taisen Dreamcast console to avoid using the boot disc to play J games on my US DC. They didn't even wait for the release of Sakura Taisen 3, which all the die-hard Japanese DC fans were eagerly awaiting. I really don't know why Japanese gamers were so indifferent to the DC, although once Sega announced that the DC would die, Western gamers started dumping their Dreamcasts but meanwhile in Japan the demand for Dreamcasts suddenly SKYROCKETED and you couldn't find any consoles used or new in stores anywhere in Japan. So bizarre. So there was a latent demand for the console that was sleeping all along. Maybe Japanese gamers had fallen in love so much with the Playstation that all they cared about was the Playstation 2, even though that console was total crap for years before it started getting interesting. At first, they just had boring crap like The Bouncer and Ka, the mosquito simulator. Lame.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Maybe Japanese gamers had fallen in love so much with the Playstation that all they cared about was the Playstation 2, even though that console was total crap for years before it started getting interesting. At first, they just had boring crap like The Bouncer and Ka, the mosquito simulator. Lame.

Er... Ico, DMC, Klonoa 2 and Onimusha came out in 2001. I recall Klonoa 2 demo and DMC trailer on a demo disc triggering my interest in PS2. Exactly the sort of stuff I wanted from a console. Even this many years down the line I keep discovering enjoyable early PS2 games (the aforementioned Sky Odyssey for example). People who sucked for "the graphics" got Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance and J&D in the very same 2001. I'm pretty sure Dreamcast had nothing quite as flashy (Record of Lodoss War vs BG:DA, Sonic Adventure vs J&D). To be fair, I like Rayman 2: The Great Escape better than J&D, but this isn't changing the fact that PS2 delivered some respectable eye candy in 2001.

[Enemy]

sorry ... not read the whole thread ... and i expect someone has written this ... but here goes ... with all the arcade ports which were great ...... ikaruga for the first time in the home ( i know you can play it on gc and xbla now) but for the first time back then ... and this being a shmup forum, shame on you whoever started this thread .......

[Stormwatch]

You must ... learn to use ... proper punctuation ... not ellipses all the time ........

[Shatterhand]

I find it pretty obvious that the DPad on the xbox 360 controller is REALLY bad, otherwise this huge controller is basically the same as a Dualshock with worse triggers

I can play any Fighter better with the 360 Dpad than with DS's dpad. I tind DS's dpad the WORST dpad ever in a 1st party controller. I hate the Dualshock so much that I have 5 3rd party PS2 controllers so I don't have to play with a Dualshock ever.

And it's nothing about hating the Playstation. I think the PS2 is probably the most amazing console to ever be released, with a game library to satisfy *any* kind of gamer. But it's controller sucks as hell.

And about the Dreamcast... it didn't had a decent Soccer game, and that would kill it here in Brazil.

I remember back in time Konami was "considering" releasing Metal Gear Solid for the DC, but they were "testing waters" before, and released a couple of crap games that didn't sell well (one of them was a really awful Ace Combat alike game which name I forgot eons ago). So they regarded the system as not profitable and didn't bother porting Metal Gear Solid, or anything else that mattered anyway.

[dannnnn]

And about the Dreamcast... it didn't had a decent Soccer game, and that would kill it here in Brazil.

Virtua Striker 2.

[Shatterhand]

And about the Dreamcast... it didn't had a decent Soccer game, and that would kill it here in Brazil.

Virtua Striker 2.

Which was fun for like 10 minutes before you found out the game isn't very good.

I mean, it works well as an arcade soccer. But the AI is dumb as hell (Even when playing in 2 players that's a problem) and most goals are scored in the same way... its gameplay is very shallow.

Winning Eleven on PS1 (inferior hardware) was tons better. No one would stop playing Winning Eleven to play Virtua Striker 2, even though the graphics were obviously a lot better.

[dannnnn]

I agree the PES series was the best choice for a proper footy game in those days, but Virtua Striker was still fun in its own way and good for a thrash.

[Koa Zo]

Well forgive me if I am wrong, but when I was a kid growing up Sega had cutting edge technology and people expected that from their consoles. I don't think Chu Chu rocket fits that category. Its not a system seller.

It wasn't a system seller for me either. However I do think it fits your standard of "Sega = cutting edge tech" because it made full use of online multiplayer, which was certainly something new and revolutionary for most console gamers.

[apple arcade]

Some of you make some valid points on why it's a good console, but without all of the arcade ports, I just don't get the love.

Considering that the system itself was virtually a home-port of the naomi hardware, why would you disregaurd the arcade ports.

I don't have a legit answer. I do have a friend who has a ps3 and a 360 who always asks to borrow my dreamcast because he loves the system.

The system is just fun.

[drauch]

Well, you're about 4 days late to the thread that has already been beaten to death, as well as saying the exact same thing everyone else has said. There is no reason to answer your post; everything has been established and answered. (even though I just answered it)

[stryc9]

I imported an American DC upon release, and like most gamers was blown away by the shift in graphics AND gameplay. (Back to consistent 60 fps again)! Then with the arrival of the Boot Disk I started importing all the J-arcade conversions. Now I know the OP didn't want mention of these - the versus fighting and shooters, but it's impossible to mention Dreamcast and not bring these titles up. At that time DC was the focus for the forefront in development of the latest 2D shit - MvsC1,2, CvsSNK1,2, SFIII W Impact, plus Sega support for their latest 3D arcade shit, as well as model 3 back catolouge (Fighting Vipers 2 etc). In short it WAS the console of choice for arcade junkies like myself for those few years between '99 and say, '02....
Fast forward 8 years and I'm afraid the landscape is a little different. Although PS2 got off to a slow start both in terms of the type of games released and learning curve for good results vissualy from devs (alaising problems etc)., eventually the tide did turn and now the PS2 is the machine of choice for 2D, due to sheer volume as well as overall quality. Don't believe me? here is my PS2 games:

Mushihimesama
Ibara
DOJ
ESPgaluda
Psyvariar 1,2
Raiden 3
Chaos Field
Radilgy P
Homura
ThunderForce 6
R-Type Funeral
Gradius V
TH Excelica
Garou MOTW
Garou Battle archives 1,2
Fuun Super Combo
Sunsoft Collection
Sam Spirits Rokuban Shobu
ADK Damashi
Power Instinct Matrimelee (or whatever it is)
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus
Hokuto No Ken
Sengoku Basara Cross
Melty Blood Actress Again
Fate Unlimited Codes
King Of Fighters 11
KOF '98 Ultimate Match
KOF 2002 Unlimited Match, Tougeki Ver.
Arcana Heart 1,2
Neo Geo Battle Colisseum
SF Zero Fighters Gen.
Vampire Darkstalkers Collection
SFIII 3rd Strike
Monster World Complete Collection
Gunstar Heroes Treasure Box
Galaxy Force 2 Special Xtended Edition
MVC2

Thats just some of what I own. And yes, I'm fully aware that certain games that were originally Naomi are superior on DC, but the sheer weight of these (all 2D) titles alone ensures victoly for PS2 in this day and age.

[Rob]

DC has a smaller but better selection of shooters than the PS2. It was actually a safe bet to buy them all as they were released. It'd quickly get depressing if you were to bother with every Double Shienryu-quality PS2 release. I count about 5 games that were really worth playing.

[stryc9]

Yeah, certainly in regards to shooters specifically, but I'm really talking about 2D action/ arcade ports in general.
Shabby Cave ports aside (really only 50 percent of them) PS2 has the three Horis though which help. (readies himself for the incoming hatewave from people here who show disdain for R-Type Final and ThunderForce 6).

[Wonderbanana]

IDon't believe me? here is my PS2 games.

I would take the comparative DC list against these every single time.

[stryc9]

Then you are obviously not a fighting fan. At the end of the day, the later PS2 fighters destroy the old DC fighter library. Into KOF? why would you want to play Dream Match and Evolution on DC when Ultimate/Unlimited Match exists on PS2? Same with SF Zero and Darkstalkers. The DC versions were great until the PS2 versions came along. Same thing with Guilty Gear. Then the exclusives - Fate/ UC and Melty Blood AA. What Dreamcast fighters can match those?
I think I encouraged this thread to go a little off topic with the whole PS2 slant, you know I love Dreamcast and SEGA in general, but I guess I am kind of surprised that there isn't the same rabid fanboy love for niche genres on Sony's machine. (Or is there)?

[Wonderbanana]

Then you are obviously not a fighting fan. At the end of the day, the later PS2 fighters destroy the old DC fighter library.

You were originally refering to 2D/old school game's in general not just fighters.

Each to their own though.

Bottom line is for me I can think of several reasons to regularly boot up a Dreamcast and very few to do the same with a PS2.

And that's saying a lot for a console with little more than a few years where games were really being developed full tilt compared to one that's had 8+.