Cave games ranked by difficulty

[Skykid]

This is one of the only threads I've been interested in for a long time. I've only 1CC a handful of CAVE's games, and it helps me decide on which other titles may be within my reach, and which I should probably hold out on until my skills improve.

I'm not ruffled, it just doesn't work. You said you want to use it as an informative guide so you know which game to tackle based on its difficulty, but the results are so all over the place you could end up leaving Esprade aside because it's impossibly hard or take on Espgaluda II or Progear because they're a walk in the park.

I think you were correct to break the software down by Easy, Medium and Hard - I'd agree Cave stuff falls into three difficulty categories (rather than just easy/hard), but since when are Dodonpachi, Donpachi, Muchi Muchi Pork easy? Easier, sure, but compared to something like Futari BL or Deathsmiles they're much tougher.
I'd only put the following games into an 'easy' category (EDIT: Oh sod it, I'll just do a full list based on personal experience and then leave you to debate)

EASY://

Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles 2
Futari BL (Original)
DFK 1.5 (Strong Type/Playing for survival only)

MEDIUM://

Espgaluda
Donpachi
Dodonpachi
Esprade
Mushihimesama (Original & Maniac)
Mushihimesama Futari (Original & Maniac)
Futari BL (Maniac)
Guwange
Progear
DFK 1.5 (Power Type)
DFK BL
Ketsupachi
Muchi Muchi Pork

HARD://

DOJ
DOJ BL
Ketsui
Espgaluda II
Mushi/Mushi Futari/Futari BL: Ultra/God modes
Ibara
Pink Sweets
Dangun Feveron

...IMO

[chempop]

Yes, but some of the lists I know enough to take with a grain on salt. Even a list from someone who hasn't 1-Alled any of the games still interests me because it shows a first impression from a novice. Your list looks good to me, I think you are probably right that it was silly to differentiate 1st and 2nd loops, although having cleared the 1st DOJ-BL loop doesn't seem anything close to a 1CC of an Ultra mode.

[Skykid]

although having cleared the 1st DOJ-BL loop doesn't seem anything close to a 1CC of an Ultra mode.

I'd agree, but it's still above medium. Well done on stamping your manly credentials all over that game btw.

[Aliquantic]

The problem is that there's just too much variation on how easy or hard any one game will be for a particular player due to varying playing styles (I find Mushi or Futari 1.5 to be a lot nastier than a DOJBL 1-ALL, which seems pretty unusual), but mainly due to playing for score to some extend over pure surviving or just plain old rank (Deathsmiles ranks high up on the list with Death Mode and EX stages, Muchi Muchi Pork or DFKBL obviously).

Of course you can always try to only consider surviving, but it's very hard to do given how entangled some of those scoring systems are with everything else (Futari BL Original in particularly, which is plain hellish when going for scores over 1 billion). Some games work better when considered for survival only, like DOJBL, but even then there's a fair amount of difference between having a high hyper rank or keeping it down with bombs/dying.

Just try them all and let God sort you out

[captpain]

The problem is that there's just too much variation on how easy or hard any one game will be for a particular player due to varying playing styles (I find Mushi or Futari 1.5 to be a lot nastier than a DOJBL 1-ALL, which seems pretty unusual), but mainly due to playing for score to some extend over pure surviving or just plain old rank (Deathsmiles ranks high up on the list with Death Mode and EX stages, Muchi Muchi Pork or DFKBL obviously).

Of course you can always try to only consider surviving, but it's very hard to do given how entangled some of those scoring systems are with everything else (Futari BL Original in particularly, which is plain hellish when going for scores over 1 billion). Some games work better when considered for survival only, like DOJBL, but even then there's a fair amount of difference between having a high hyper rank or keeping it down with bombs/dying.

Just try them all and let God sort you out

Scoring isn't really closely tangled with survival in Cave's games for the most part. You can choose to take as few risks as possible and survive, or take more risks for the sake of increasing score.

Obviously there are some games that are excepted.

[Aliquantic]

Sorry, what I meant is that it'd be unusual to play for pure survival only, and "accidental" scoring is going to happen to varying degrees in most games (Ketsui comes to mind of a tough game where most players are still not going to ignore the scoring system altogether in the first loop). So even when playing with a 1cc in mind, there will be a fair amount variation in the amount of risks taken by any player.

Or to rephrase it differently, individual playstyle is tricky to take into account since there isn't that much of a difficulty gap between the majority of Cave games, with a few obvious exceptions on both ends of the scale (Deathsmiles at all rank 1 or DFK 1.5 Strong is about as far away from most games as are the Ultras/rank 999 or the Ibaras to a lesser extend)

[Deca]

Man, with all the talk of espgaluda being easy I figured once I got around to playing it I'd be able to 1cc it or at least see the final boss in one sitting.

Well, I finally got around to playing it and I don't know where people are coming from with this easy nonsense, I'm not really finding it much easier than any other cave game. It's not BRUTAL, I just wouldn't go out of my way to call it easy. Best so far is 4th boss...I'm guessing it has 5 stages?

[captpain]

Sorry, what I meant is that it'd be unusual to play for pure survival only, and "accidental" scoring is going to happen to varying degrees in most games (Ketsui comes to mind of a tough game where most players are still not going to ignore the scoring system altogether in the first loop). So even when playing with a 1cc in mind, there will be a fair amount variation in the amount of risks taken by any player.

Or to rephrase it differently, individual playstyle is tricky to take into account since there isn't that much of a difficulty gap between the majority of Cave games, with a few obvious exceptions on both ends of the scale (Deathsmiles at all rank 1 or DFK 1.5 Strong is about as far away from most games as are the Ultras/rank 999 or the Ibaras to a lesser extend)

I don't think play style is a real thing, though... there aren't many different, equally-valid ways to play a game for survival well. Usually, there are choices that are clearly better. There will be variation, but it boils down to skill level. Also, "accidental" scoring (I know what you mean) will never produce a score like an actual scorer or involve the same level of risk.

[captpain]

Man, with all the talk of espgaluda being easy I figured once I got around to playing it I'd be able to 1cc it or at least see the final boss in one sitting.

Well, I finally got around to playing it and I don't know where people are coming from with this easy nonsense, I'm not really finding it much easier than any other cave game. Best so far is 4th boss...I'm guessing it has 5 stages?

If you've got Cave's style pretty well under your belt, it's not a difficult game. You'll get familiar with it. The game only gets really interesting in stages 5-1 and 5-2 (you're right -- 5 full stages).

The key is knowing when to use the barrier.

Probably the most helpful thing to consider is that you use WAY less of your barrier when you bomb deliberately, as compared to the defensive auto-bombing that happens in Purple/Red Bullet Mode. That takes up half of your bomb, while you can get plenty out of a deliberate bomb.

[chempop]

About galuda shield/bombing: what captpain said is true, tapping the barrier will let you use it as a defensive shield about 8 times per meter I think. It won't do much damage that way but it'll save you from many deaths. Using it offensive is very useful too, if you let it charge fully (using about half the meter) your laser will take bosses down REAL QUICK. If you get hit in kakusei, it will indeed deplete half the meter and the laser will shoot at minimum strength, so that's usually the worst way to use it.

While I find galuda on the easy side of things, that last bosses final form took me almost a year to figure out (I don't watch replays).

[Anesthetize]

Yes, I'm very guilty of not using the guard barrier to my advantage. As soon as I learn the best spots to actually use it, I'm sure I'll progress more in the game. Haven't gotten past the stage 4 boss yet. I have practiced the final boss's last form, though, and do surprisingly well on it (at the end of a full run I'm sure it'll be a different story, though).

[Hair]

I like skykid's list, but I think ESPgaluda is one of the easy ones (last boss aside) and Dangun Feveron is in the middle.

I also find ESPgaluda 2 to be even harder than Ketsui or DOJ.

I evaluate difficulty in two ways, dry runs and ease of a 1cc.

If I am not warmed up and don't have the game memorized, can I sit down and no miss the first three or four levels? That's Futari Original and ESPgaluda for me. Or will I die constantly in every level, such as ESPgaluda 2. If I am warmed up, and have spent a lot of time practicing a game, how attainable is a 1cc (or close)?

Dangun Feveron is a game I can always sit down and do well at (at least for the first few levels), but I don't think I will ever 1cc it. ESPgaluda also is a game I can sit down, cold, and just smash the first 3 levels no problem. But the last boss rapes me. Death Smiles often makes a mess of me, but I feel that with some memorization I could 1cc it easier than Dangun Feveron.

[captpain]

Dangun Feveron is a game I can always sit down and do well at (at least for the first few levels), but I don't think I will ever 1cc it. ESPgaluda also is a game I can sit down, cold, and just smash the first 3 levels no problem. But the last boss rapes me. Death Smiles often makes a mess of me, but I feel that with some memorization I could 1cc it easier than Dangun Feveron.

What does "do well at" mean?

[zlk]

I will rank the games by group if you are trying to clear the games the easiest way possible. If the game has two loops in its default more, you have to play through both of them. I am also only ranking the JP versions of the games. I have played all these games except for DS2 and AK, but from what I have seen and read I put them both in the easy category.

Easy: Espgaluda, Deathsmiles MBL (no extra stages), Deathsmiles (no extra stages), Deathsmiles 2, Aki katana, mushihimesama series (original), uo poko and MHT puzzle games

Medium: mushihime sama series (maniac), esprade, guwange, dfk bl, ibara, pink sweets (use the infinite lives feature)

Hard: Dangun Feveron, Donpachi, Mushi Futari Black god mode, DFK 1.5, Espgaluda 2

Insane: Progear, MMP, Dodonpachi, Ketsui, DOJ series, Mushihimesama series ultra

[chempop]

zlk, I definitely like your list but...

pink sweets (use the infinite lives feature)

My understanding is that getting the infinite lives alone is an extremely difficult task. EOJ (who has 1CC Pink Sweets with every character) has said that he triggers infinite lives one out of every 40-50 runs. Maybe that was early on in his mastery of the game, but still I doubt many here could pull it off. I'm not saying EOJ has the final say, but he does know the game inside and out.

[zlk]

If you have autofire on B (which I don't have) you can trigger the bug by the end of stage 3. There is not a lot to memorize in those stages and once you trigger the infinite lives you are home free. I might be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me like it is a really hard task based on the videos I have seen. Also if you don't trigger the infinite lives bug, you start over. If you mess up on stage 2-4 of DFK it is going to take you a long time to start over get another chance at 2-4.

One more thing: Even if there were no infinite lives feature there is absolutely no way I would put the game in the insane category.

[Hair]

Dangun Feveron is a game I can always sit down and do well at (at least for the first few levels), but I don't think I will ever 1cc it. ESPgaluda also is a game I can sit down, cold, and just smash the first 3 levels no problem. But the last boss rapes me. Death Smiles often makes a mess of me, but I feel that with some memorization I could 1cc it easier than Dangun Feveron.

What does "do well at" mean?

Dodging the bullets instead of getting hit by them.

Many shmups force me to warm up (with *that* game) before I can be comfortable with it and, "do well". I can always sit down and play Dangun Feveron and instantly get in the groove. In that sense, it is easy. But it would be a hard game for me to 1cc. In that sense it is hard.

[BIL]

If you can't survive the game's duration, let alone get a decent score, it's not easy in any sense of the word. Plenty of harder shooters will let players muck around for a few levels before turning the lights out around stage three. Most of Psikyo's later catalogue come to mind.

[Hair]

If you can't survive the game's duration, let alone get a decent score, it's not easy in any sense of the word. Plenty of harder shooters will let players muck around for a few levels before turning the lights out around stage three. Most of Psikyo's later catalogue come to mind.

If you can't 1cc it, it isn't easy? That doesn't make sense. "Easy" can mean many different things in shmups.

ESPgaluda is easy, but the last boss is hard. That doesn't make the rest of the game any less easy. A 1cc isn't everyone's ultimate goal with a game. If one can't survive the whole game it can still very much be "easy" in many senses of the word.

Look, I'm talking about how *I* judge how easy a game is. You do you. No need to "correct" me. Thanks.

[BIL]

If you're saying you can easily make it to Dangun's TLB before getting killed, you're obviously pretty skilled and the game will still be regarded as hard by most players.

If you're saying Dangun kicks your ass after a couple of stages, like it does with most people around here, you're wrong to describe it as "easy" in any sense of the word. Thanks!

[Hair]

If you're saying you can easily make it to Dangun's TLB before getting killed, you're obviously pretty skilled and the game will still be regarded as hard by most players.

If you're saying Dangun kicks your ass after a couple of stages, like it does with most people around here, you're wrong to describe it as "easy" in any sense of the word. Thanks!

Cave games tend to get intense in level 3. If level 3 represents a wall, I consider it hard. If level 3 is where it gets fun, I consider it on the easier side. I can't no miss up to the TLB, but I am not constantly dying either. No frustration, no wall, just an increasing challenge to match my increasing focus.

It depends on if I want to "improv" through the game (I find this more fun than memorizing and tend to get bored with a game when I get close to a 1cc), or actually try and master it. Some games are easy to learn, or easy to improv, but hard to master. Some games are hard to learn, but once you understand the strategy you need to use, it gets really easy.

Dangun is hard to master, but it has never raped me like ESPgaluda 2 does. Not even the first time I played it. But if one were to try and 1cc both, they might offer similar challenges in the long run (at their hardest parts). That's why I mean by different types of easy or hard.

As mentioned before, "easy" is in the context of Cave's library of games. I'd never say Feveron is "easy" in the grand scheme of gaming, but I think it is easier than the "hard" Cave games are for me. It's not in the "easy" category with ESPgaluda 1 either.

[Paradigm]

If you can't 1cc it, it isn't easy? That doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. If you can't 1CC a game, you can't call it easy. 'Nuff said.

[Skykid]

If you can't 1cc it, it isn't easy? That doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. If you can't 1CC a game, you can't call it easy. 'Nuff said.

Finally some clarity. Good post.

[Hair]

If you can't 1cc it, it isn't easy? That doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. If you can't 1CC a game, you can't call it easy. 'Nuff said.

I am pretty sure I can. I can't 1cc ESPgaluda, but I can sure call it easy (in the context of other Cave games). You call things whatever you want.

I don't need to take the time to actually 1cc a game to consider it easy. As I explained, while I have a few Cave 1ccs from years ago, I don't enjoy mastering a game to that level anymore when I could mix up my time playing any of the 100 shmups I have. I like variety.

I'm not going to group Cave games into two categories, one for the games I have actually gotten around to 1ccing (DP, DDP, Guwange), and another group that I haven't gotten around to 1ccing (putting ESPgaluda right next to Ketsui?!?!). That is what I mean by "that doesn't make sense". That list wouldn't be accurate and would be based on what games I happened to have put more time into, and not how hard the games really are.

Again, "easy" is in the context of other Cave games. None of them are easy. Are you not understanding that part?

I though this was a thread about ranking Cave games in order of difficulty, and perhaps grouping them into categories. Each person can have a slightly different list or criteria.

So yeah, I can most definitly call a game I have never 1cc'd "easy" or rather, put it in the "easy" group when ranking the games by diffilculty. I did not say Dangun Feveron was in the easy group, I just said I wouldn't put it in my hardest group because a larger portion of the game is easy than the games I consider the hardest. A game that challenges me on every stage (and can cause a random death or two) is harder to get a 1cc than a game that allows me to warm-up for the first 3 or 4 stages and then it gets hard. That's *MY* criteria.

I "do well" at Dangun Feveron for a lot longer than I "do well" at Ketsui. Hence I consider it easier even if they are both hard at their peak. Some may disagree, but every player is different.

You don't have anything to say about my personal ranking of Cave games by diffilculty, so go ahead and just stop. Thanks.

[mjclark]

Hard: All of them

[dunpeal2064]

If you can't 1cc it, it isn't easy? That doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. If you can't 1CC a game, you can't call it easy. 'Nuff said.

Finally some clarity. Good post.

I cant 1cc a lot of easy shmups, because thats boring. Like aegis wing, or 360 arrange guwange

Still easy, just not worth the time

[BIL]

Not clearing a game because it's boring or trash isn't the same as being flat-out unable to do it at your current skill level. And in the second case, talk is cheap I'm afraid! Sorry, I'm in elitist prick mode here. I just don't think you can consider a game "in the bag" until you can finish it.

I should've said much earlier, Hair, I don't think in survival-only terms with shooters (or any game with some kind of scoring system). Dangun is only especially difficult from the get-go if you're speedkilling for every last bonus wave, never breaking the chain, and never spending a bomb (that should be saved for later) / losing lives (same). It's trying to do all of the above that gives it a reputation as an absolute beast to keep under control.

In comparison, just staying alive isn't that remarkable at all for stages 1-3, I'd agree. Again, it's just not the way I see these games.

[dunpeal2064]

Not clearing a game because it's boring or trash isn't the same as being flat-out unable to do it at your current skill level. And in the second case, talk is cheap I'm afraid!

I agree, i was addressing the "you cant call it easy unless" statement

Just seemed silly in the first place to tell someone what they can and cant call easy in comparison


I can say without a doubt that deathsmiles (rank 1) is easier than futari original. I have not 1ccd either of them.

[Hair]

Not clearing a game because it's boring or trash isn't the same as being flat-out unable to do it at your current skill level. And in the second case, talk is cheap I'm afraid! Sorry, I'm in elitist prick mode here. I just don't think you can consider a game "in the bag" until you can finish it.

I should've said much earlier, Hair, I don't think in survival-only terms with shooters (or any game with some kind of scoring system). Dangun is only especially difficult from the get-go if you're speedkilling for every last bonus wave, never breaking the chain, and never spending a bomb (that should be saved for later) / losing lives (same). It's trying to do all of the above that gives it a reputation as an absolute beast to keep under control.

In comparison, just staying alive isn't that remarkable at all for stages 1-3, I'd agree. Again, it's just not the way I see these games.

That's one of the points I was trying to make about how a shmup can be easy or hard in different ways. I understand that Dangun Feveron is considered a very hard Cave game by the standards of highly competitive players due to the scoring, and that being able to survive the first 3 or 4 stages doesn't make the game easy. That's why I can a game can be easy on one hard, and hard on another.

I like to play shmups in long sessions that include many games. There are games that I have gotten very good at that if I were to pick up and play right now (not warmed up, haven't played the game in years), I would suck at it. I would get killed every few seconds and it would be a mess. I would have to warm up and practice to get good again. This is the case for Psikyo games and I. While some games (and Dangun Feveror is an example), I can always pick up and "do well at" even if I haven't played it in years. I am not saying I will break a record when I say "well", just that I will tend to clear the first few stages without dying.

Shit, I knew Life Force like the back of my hand on NES. That game was so hard that I just had to try and memorize it. But I suck at horis and if I were to play Life Force now, it would not be pretty. It is just hard in a very different way than Dangun Feveron.

It's simply a matter of games being hard in different ways to different players. I'm not, nor have I ever, said Dangun is "easy". This entire thread is all comparitive and I was just explaining the criteria I use to compare two shmups.

[Hair]

I cant 1cc a lot of easy shmups, because thats boring. Like aegis wing, or 360 arrange guwange

Still easy, just not worth the time

Finally some real clarity. Good post.