Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

This is the main shmups forum. Chat about shmups in here - keep it on-topic please!
User avatar
kernow
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Plymouth, Devon, UK

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by kernow »

apatia77 wrote: What we need is region free releases or region free consoles. Not some bullshit that DS1 is coming out in Europe next year, I couldn't care less as I already got the Japanese version, I'm not buying the same game twice just to support anyone even that I really would want to but money doesn't grow on trees for me.
Do you want it gold plated also? I don't see the issue with region locking, if you want to play them on the 360 - buy a jp 360.

Some people want the moon on a stick.

wah - a highly niche, low selling game isn't being released in my region on my console!
david peterson
Banned User
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by david peterson »

kernow wrote:
apatia77 wrote: What we need is region free releases or region free consoles. Not some bullshit that DS1 is coming out in Europe next year, I couldn't care less as I already got the Japanese version, I'm not buying the same game twice just to support anyone even that I really would want to but money doesn't grow on trees for me.
Do you want it gold plated also? I don't see the issue with region locking, if you want to play them on the 360 - buy a jp 360.

Some people want the moon on a stick.

wah - a highly niche, low selling game isn't being released in my region on my console!
Will you pay the import tax for me plx?
User avatar
kernow
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Plymouth, Devon, UK

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by kernow »

I find it amazing you can afford a computer but baulk at anything else. Are you going to start clasping your hands in anticipation for akai katana in mame? It should only be a 10yr wait or so.
User avatar
yosai
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:37 pm
Location: London

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by yosai »

Some Cave SH-3 have already been emulated.
Image
david peterson
Banned User
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by david peterson »

kernow wrote:I find it amazing you can afford a computer but baulk at anything else. Are you going to start clasping your hands in anticipation for akai katana in mame? It should only be a 10yr wait or so.
A computer isnt guaranteed to die in a short period of time , would you continue to buy the same car if it has a great reputation of breaking down? no so why do people persist in buying that joke lump of hardware all arguments aside im just not stupid enough to piss away money like that .I do own a japanese ps2 + all cave games for the system but i didnt buy into it blindly without researching the system and making an educated decision on the investment .
Last edited by david peterson on Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
kernow
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Plymouth, Devon, UK

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by kernow »

yosai wrote:Some Cave SH-3 have already been emulated.
*clips lee around the ear*
User avatar
kernow
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Plymouth, Devon, UK

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by kernow »

david peterson wrote:
kernow wrote:I find it amazing you can afford a computer but baulk at anything else. Are you going to start clasping your hands in anticipation for akai katana in mame? It should only be a 10yr wait or so.

A computer is guaranteed to die in a short period of time , would you continue to buy the same car if it has a great reputation of breaking down? no so why do people persist in buying that joke lump of hardware all arguments aside im just not stupid enough to piss away money like that .
ok I give up I have no idea what you mean.
david peterson
Banned User
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by david peterson »

Minor typo .
User avatar
Keade
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:44 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Keade »

yosai wrote:Some Cave SH-3 have already been emulated.
Which does not mean they are playable, besides afaik the dumps haven't been released and most probably will not be soon.
Look at how long it took before Ketsui's dump became public, even after the game had been actually dumped by Guru. If people didn't gather money to send a PCB to Guru, the game might have been dumped and emulated even later.
Anyway, today Ketsui (PCB) is already eight years old and I don't think I'm saying wrong if add that PGM is a dead platform.
Last edited by Keade on Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Taylor
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:35 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Taylor »

I paid hundreds for DFK a couple of years ago and now everyone has it with more modes and better graphics for 50 squids?! This is an outrage.

Also: Everyone telling me that Ketsui was all about point blanking, and not chaining, led to me not understanding the very simple score system for months.

Also, also: RROD in ur twenty ten killing ur import prospects
User avatar
Vyxx
Banned User
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:13 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Vyxx »

david peterson wrote:
kernow wrote:I find it amazing you can afford a computer but baulk at anything else. Are you going to start clasping your hands in anticipation for akai katana in mame? It should only be a 10yr wait or so.
A computer isnt guaranteed to die in a short period of time , would you continue to buy the same car if it has a great reputation of breaking down? no so why do people persist in buying that joke lump of hardware all arguments aside im just not stupid enough to piss away money like that .I do own a japanese ps2 + all cave games for the system but i didnt buy into it blindly without researching the system and making an educated decision on the investment .
But the PS2 was known to have plenty of DRE problems, not to mention the fact that half the Cave releases on it are in almost every way inferior to the PCB releases. On the 360, the Cave releases are near identical to the original releases, but on the PS2 games like Ibara & Mushi are damn near unplayable (or at least for me, unenjoyable).
gray117
Posts: 1235
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by gray117 »

NR777 wrote:
emphatic wrote:I just found this: http://www.ppl-pilot.com.nyud.net/mame.aspx
Almost posted that earlier today. Great article.

Er... Surely the issue here is really that the developer wasn't given the proper resources, and the funding body had no interest in providing them. Yes mame aided in finding a solution, and I'm glad it helped out the dev - great - but the upshot is that the dev had the stress, and the funding body's pressure, and lack of respect, is rewarded.

Clearly emulation has a purpose - in fact its a shame that unlike books/film/music there are very few bodies yet in place that would even attempt to preserve such material let alone document it and make it available. The perverse thing is that at a certain point emulation relieves pressure from society to change their regard for games. In exchange for that emulation is - by and large - accepted. Should instead it be managed and funded? Should part of the tax that typically goes on such products be put towards [digital] archiving/libraries? ... arguably my tax already does this for other media...

.. this isn't limited to ketsui and shmups - I'm sure similar thoughts about BlazBlue and type-x must have been put about in fighter communities when the emulation of that came close to [pre-dated?] the pal retail release of that game originally, and I don't think continuum shift has yet been released in pal territories (?).
Last edited by gray117 on Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4253
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Despatche »

Keade wrote:Anyway, today Ketsui (PCB) is already eight years old and I don't think I'm saying wrong if add that PGM is a dead platform.
The original PGM probably isn't used anymore, but there is a PGM2.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
User avatar
Taylor
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:35 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Taylor »

BB:CS is out in europe now, but the rip was about a year ago.

However, I can't imagine it offset home sales at all as it didn't work on a lot of machines, even then didn't run too well unless you wanted to remove backgrounds, took a lot of messing around to configure controls, didn't have any DLC support, no story modes or online, etc. I guess if you had local fighting game friends it would be comparable. But that also means you could be playing Guilty Gear instead.
User avatar
power UP
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:25 am

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by power UP »

austere wrote:[In here a post will be written by me that destroys everything you just said (and THE's post) when I have the time to read it and reply to it.

Stay tuned.]
Still tuned.
david peterson
Banned User
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by david peterson »

Vyxx wrote:
david peterson wrote:
kernow wrote:I find it amazing you can afford a computer but baulk at anything else. Are you going to start clasping your hands in anticipation for akai katana in mame? It should only be a 10yr wait or so.
A computer isnt guaranteed to die in a short period of time , would you continue to buy the same car if it has a great reputation of breaking down? no so why do people persist in buying that joke lump of hardware all arguments aside im just not stupid enough to piss away money like that .I do own a japanese ps2 + all cave games for the system but i didnt buy into it blindly without researching the system and making an educated decision on the investment .
But the PS2 was known to have plenty of DRE problems, not to mention the fact that half the Cave releases on it are in almost every way inferior to the PCB releases. On the 360, the Cave releases are near identical to the original releases, but on the PS2 games like Ibara & Mushi are damn near unplayable (or at least for me, unenjoyable).
Like i said try to pay attention ! I made the decision to invest in a ps2 after doing research for myself and making decisions based on that , I did the same with the xbox and decided for the price tag it just isnt worth it end of . No console EVER has a failure rate even close to the xbox .
User avatar
emphatic
Posts: 7988
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Alingsås, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by emphatic »

david peterson wrote:Like i said try to pay attention !
It's kinda hard what with all the nonsense in this thread. :lol:
Image | My games - http://www.emphatic.se
RegalSin wrote:Street Fighters. We need to aviod them when we activate time accellerator.
User avatar
Elixir
Posts: 5436
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:58 am

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Elixir »

david peterson wrote:I made the decision to invest in a ps2 after doing research for myself and making decisions based on that , I did the same with the xbox and decided for the price tag it just isnt worth it end of . No console EVER has a failure rate even close to the xbox .
Failure rate hasn't been much of an issue for a few years now.
david peterson
Banned User
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by david peterson »

Elixir wrote:
david peterson wrote:I made the decision to invest in a ps2 after doing research for myself and making decisions based on that , I did the same with the xbox and decided for the price tag it just isnt worth it end of . No console EVER has a failure rate even close to the xbox .
Failure rate hasn't been much of an issue for a few years now.
Sure.
User avatar
Elixir
Posts: 5436
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:58 am

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Elixir »

david peterson wrote:
Elixir wrote:
david peterson wrote:I made the decision to invest in a ps2 after doing research for myself and making decisions based on that , I did the same with the xbox and decided for the price tag it just isnt worth it end of . No console EVER has a failure rate even close to the xbox .
Failure rate hasn't been much of an issue for a few years now.
Sure.
Fine, don't believe me. Deprive yourself based on outdated information. We don't care whether you bought a PS2, and we certainly don't care if you are or aren't buying a 360. It's a moot point and has nothing to do with the thread here.
dcharlie
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:18 am

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by dcharlie »

Failure rate of the new model x360's are low to the point that the issue is gone IF you buy a new model. The old models still have the issues and there's no denying it's a problem. The 3 year returns on RRoD was a godsend and the return of the unit was speedy. I'm actually more in fear of my 60gig launch Ps3 dying - as that would see the end of SACD and -good- B/C support with the replacement (that i'd have to buy - i guess i could pay through the nose for one of the better first gen models :/)

But yes, failure rate was a definite blocker on X360 - but the Jaspers/zephyrs went some way to solving that and the new model means it's a non-issue. *shrug*
If you buy a game, 3 months later someone emulates it gets it for free. Then repeat that cycle 3 or 4 times and you end up regretting all your purchases.
if anyone is basing your purchasing habits / feelings on what other people are doing then they're going to be in a constant state of regret. Who cares what everyone else is doing?
Dcharlie, your sentiments are very often on the positive but unrealistic side.
I did note that it was somewhat pie in the sky... however....
Remember that charitable thing a few studios did a few months ago with 5 or 6 games. Some people still torrented those games and others paid $00.01 for all of them. Given the choice the majority of people will opt to get the most for as little as possible.
... yet they still made cash. The thing is that Cave won't make any direct profit from MAME , however, setting up a simple "pay us what you feel it was worth" system at least opens up -some- potential for income. Like i say, throw in "... and get this poster if you donate more than $50" and i'm pretty damned sure people would stump up for it. Hell, i bet a load of cave fans would pay even if they DIDN'T play the games via Mame. Again, i'm not presenting this as the be all end all "new profit engine" situation - it's just a potential way for Cave to generate -some- revenue when they are currently getting nothing.
"I've asked 2 experts on taking RGB screenshots...."
User avatar
flux
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:11 pm
Location: New York

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by flux »

bcass wrote:Many of us on this forum spend many hundreds of £s/€s/$s every year on Cave product. And that's before you even get to the people who buy new PCBs. Ketsui bombed at retail, it's no longer being printed. DOJ/DOJBL also bombed at retail and is also no longer being printed (in fact, all retail copies were supposedly recalled once the bugs started to surface). 5PB stated that there wouldn't be a re-issue. There's very little mileage left in these titles as viable commercial products outside of iPhone ports (a market which is entirely unaffected by emulation). It's *very* unlikely that these games are up for consideration to be sold to Western publishers either. Cave will be pushing the hi-def stuff to the West, not games that are the best part of 10 years old.
And the fact that there is a pile of people who are excited for a free version of these shows that Cave is being hurt by people expecting everything to be free now. They may not have known that emulation was so close, but I'm sure people figured it would happen at some point.

I could see emulating games once production was stopped, but now with the PSN, WiiWare, and XBLA many of these games are being published again. Some of bought Guwange again even though it has a working ROM, but I'm sure there a quite a few who saw no reason.
I played Beatmania years ago when the console releases were almost stopped due to poor sales (they released a bunch more but have officially stopped now) and seeing people immediately ask for ISOs and harddrive rips once console releases started again would really piss me off. Maybe this makes me extra hostile towards people relying on ROMs, but I'm almost waiting for Cave to announce that they are going to stop console releases.

And just a heads up, "I didn't want to spend the money" isn't a valid excuse for stealing something.
User avatar
Udderdude
Posts: 6297
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:55 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Udderdude »

Sales lost due to Guwangs being emulated for years and years before the 360 release: All of them

Yep that's right, not a single person bought Guwangs for 360. Even though it was clearly superior to the MAME version.

:3
User avatar
TrevHead (TVR)
Posts: 2781
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:36 pm
Location: UK (west yorks)

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

speaking of the devil anyone looking in the offtopic section of the forum will of noticed that the humble indie bundle has returned. These indie guys are onto a good tactic as they are producing sales out of thin air with most sales comming from gamers who wouldnt have bothered buying any of the games otherwise.

Cave really need to do stuff like this, have a tip jar or even better take a leaf from many of the games on steam, who release cheap DLC packs intermittedly many months after the original games release. (plus increases sales of the original) Just imagine if cave released an extra character or mode as DLC for DS or MMP/PS 6 - 12 months after the original games release.

I know the counter arguement to this if you want to support Cave just buy a J360 and their games. But that is allot of lolly to many ppl. The best was to capatalise on fans is to give them something cheap thats under £15- £20 with new product coming out periodically. Like the humble indie bundle or what these guys do with their virtual trainsets http://store.steampowered.com/sub/6839/
User avatar
ZacharyB
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:16 am
Location: Queens NY
Contact:

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by ZacharyB »

dcharlie wrote:Here's an interesting one though - would anyone emulating something like Ketsui consider buying the game new on import even if they can't play it (i know there are a number of ins and outs here where this doesn't quite add up but... hey) ? What if Cave set up a donation pot on their website as an alternative ? "Okay, we aren't going to go after you or ask for the game to be removed from MAME - but if you did play Ketsui emulated and you did enjoy it then please feel free to pay what you think that game experience is worth. Suggested tip of $5. Donations over $40 get this exclusive "Ketsui Support Team" B2 poster!"
This is the logical thing to do... except that it implies emulation exists for a corporation's products. They can't display that on their public website. Maybe if they just had a button to donate to them, without that message.

dcharlie wrote:... yet they still made cash. The thing is that Cave won't make any direct profit from MAME , however, setting up a simple "pay us what you feel it was worth" system at least opens up -some- potential for income. Like i say, throw in "... and get this poster if you donate more than $50" and i'm pretty damned sure people would stump up for it. Hell, i bet a load of cave fans would pay even if they DIDN'T play the games via Mame. Again, i'm not presenting this as the be all end all "new profit engine" situation - it's just a potential way for Cave to generate -some- revenue when they are currently getting nothing.
This has always made me really curious, because it's that point of trust that a developer's entire future rests on. Can they make enough from this business model to survive onto their NEXT project? What did Asada say was the lowest possible number of units they needed to sell in that translated interview?

Let's say a game costs $70. Maybe the number Asada gave was 10,000. That's $700,000. But maybe it costs $1,000,000 a year for a game company to develop their next game. Could they make $300,000 in donations because 4,280 people decided to wait until emulation/would just "get it off the internet"?
User avatar
bcass
Posts: 2671
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:10 am

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by bcass »

flux wrote:And the fact that there is a pile of people who are excited for a free version of these shows that Cave is being hurt by people expecting everything to be free now. They may not have known that emulation was so close, but I'm sure people figured it would happen at some point.
Could you please direct me to evidence that people who pirate music/DVDs/games would have bought the original product had they not been able to pirate them? Thanks.
flux wrote:I could see emulating games once production was stopped, but now with the PSN, WiiWare, and XBLA many of these games are being published again. Some of bought Guwange again even though it has a working ROM, but I'm sure there a quite a few who saw no reason.
You do know that Cave added loads of extras to the port, right? You know, to make it more appealing as a purchase. Extras that you can't get in any other version.
flux wrote:I'm almost waiting for Cave to announce that they are going to stop console releases.
Because two 8 year old games have just been emulated? Don't be such a drama queen. The console market is obviously a rich source of income for Cave, otherwise I doubt they would have released 8 ports in the space of 20 months.
ZacharyB wrote:What did Asada say was the lowest possible number of units they needed to sell in that translated interview?
That translation has since been shown to be highly innacurate. It can not be reliably referenced.
neorichieb1971
Posts: 7900
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:28 am
Location: Bedford, UK
Contact:

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by neorichieb1971 »

. yet they still made cash. The thing is that Cave won't make any direct profit from MAME , however, setting up a simple "pay us what you feel it was worth" system at least opens up -some- potential for income. Like i say, throw in "... and get this poster if you donate more than $50" and i'm pretty damned sure people would stump up for it. Hell, i bet a load of cave fans would pay even if they DIDN'T play the games via Mame. Again, i'm not presenting this as the be all end all "new profit engine" situation - it's just a potential way for Cave to generate -some- revenue when they are currently getting nothing.
I believe using merchandise to push the games is a good idea if your in Japan. The problem is these special editions don't cost $10 extra, they cost 30% extra with the disc versions already out. I think Cave should try this system of yours out though. However, the next thread on here will be "I want my tangible discs". Because Cave are not going to print discs in such a fashion.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
User avatar
Drachenherz
Posts: 1555
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:03 pm
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Drachenherz »

To the topic:

If a game isn't officially released in my country, and a company doesn't actually makes it easy for me to give them my money (e.g.: region lock), I have no bad consciousness using the emulated version of a game.

If I am suddenly among the intendet audience/buyers, I have no problem buying the game, even if I have/know the rom. Guwange comes to mind. I downloaded this day 1 and paid Cave my due respect.

Yeah, of course you could argue that I could import a jx360 in order to play the jap-only releases, but this is too much money for me just to spend on a whim/hobby.

And yes, this is scroogy and even ethically not correct on my behalf, but you know what? I don't care. Because in my opinion, it doesn't hurt cave, if we take Ketsui as an example. Because I (as a european) was not in the intendet audience for cave, they never actually wanted my money, or else they would have made Ketsui at least region free. So, I'm not giving them money for a game they did not want to sell me. As long as I don't hurt somebody with my behaviour, I think it's morally legit for me to play the emulated version.

You may crucify me now for having a different opinion than you.
Truth - Compassion - Tolerance
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4253
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Despatche »

"in my opinion, it doesn't hurt CAVE"

Where is this thread even going anymore?
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
User avatar
Drachenherz
Posts: 1555
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:03 pm
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

Post by Drachenherz »

Despatche wrote:"in my opinion, it doesn't hurt CAVE"

Where is this thread even going anymore?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Truth - Compassion - Tolerance
Locked