[X360] Score Rush, 4 player shmup (Xona Games) NOW RELEASED

[Observer]

I only had a minor issue with the game, mostly that the bosses appear to be in their death throes before they've lost very much health at all, so it's hard to tell when they're actually about to die.

Curious how you would want the bosses to react? Should they only appear hurt after 50%? Then how would you know if you are at, say, 35%? Should we have a health bar to fix that?

Currently they start to appear damaged pretty quickly, but not right away, to jump into a "progress bar" type feedback quickly.

Wait, wait. I sometimes find health bars so damn annoying for my concentration (just focus one millisecond on the bar, see it's almost depleted, and you are guaranteed to die fast because of that!) that I very much prefer visual cues.

Either debris exploding with increasing violence, maybe an alarm (I think in some older games you would hear alarms, the crew of the ship shouting orders, lol, that kind of stuff), the patterns obviously get harder or change, heavily damaged parts flash in red, smoke and pieces start falling apart, etc.

And when the boss is nearly finished (and if little of the ship remains, then it should logically not fire that much at all) you can always trigger some sort of "bullshit" desperation attack (but more on the "desperation" side, with a proper warning like a charging sound or "!" in the direction most of the flak will go, rather than pure unexpected "bullshit" ) or have some tracking lights/spotlights coming out from the bosses and focus on the player, painting it as a target, telling him: "I'm going to own you, your a$$ is mine, this is my last chance to get you".

Or, for example, you can state that disarming certain parts of the boss will trigger their second phase. And if the player isn't actually aiming at those parts (due to maximum suckage/noobish behaviour) but are still causing damage, when enough damage has been taken or when enough time has passed, it'll go to the second phase anyway to avoid the much dreaded "boss milking". I feel most bosses should have a time out sequence to avoid this and add more tension because if the boss leaves, you get penalised with no bonuses and a big, red TIMED OUT.

Guess there are options and visual queues to rely on without the need of distracting lifebars. You guys said "intense" is a key word here. 1 millisecond where you look at the wrong place, BAM, owned. It happens a lot in DoDonPachi...

IF the boss has many parts, placing minibars (and quite small) on the parts should be fine, but a boss health bar, on a light show like this... I don't think so.

[Xonatron]

...but a boss health bar, on a light show like this... I don't think so.

This was our thoughts too.

We would rather improved the visuals (and actions) to convey the bosses damage and closeness to death. We'll have to amp this up some in Duality ZF.

[nZero]

No, a health bar is unnecessary since the bosses are actually very predictable about how they'll change their behavior. Rather, there's no way to know when it's safe to go balls out and ride the boss point blank (with the intention of passing through the last wave of bullets on the screen-shake invincibility from the boss destruction) because they've been "dying" (flashing, turned to swiss cheese, making whale noises and shaking the controller) for the past 30 seconds with no end in sight. I was hoping for some sort of secondary indication of actual impending death.

[Xonatron]

Can you give me an example of what would suit you, nZero? Just spell it right out for me if you can.

[Xonatron]

Speaking on a different topic of actual boss deaths, not impeding deaths, the best boss death I know of is the first dual bosses in Radien II. That "t-t-t-t-boom!" sound and explosion was just incredibly satisfying.

[nZero]

Can you give me an example of what would suit you, nZero? Just spell it right out for me if you can.

For example, maybe a sudden rapid flashing at ~5% of boss health remaining, a-la older Konami arcade beat'em ups? Or small secondary explosions prior to the main explosion? Some visual indication to the player that the boss is truly in imminent danger of dying and that a couple seconds or less of focused point-blank fire will destroy it. To me, at least, this kind of feature would be very helpful in the higher difficulty modes.

[Xonatron]

I see what you mean. So we could do this too with the visuals. There is also an audible indication of death progression in our games, that also helps you feel the speed at which you kill the bosses when you are closer to them. If you go kill the first bosses in Score Rush again, pay attention to the explosion sounds as you kill it. You can sense how far you are along this way, but I see that you can get confused by which sound is the last sound, and a last 5% idea would be far more helpful.

The shot patterns in our bosses also help this, as they come out based on the bosses health bar.

[Jason]

For example, maybe a sudden rapid flashing at ~5% of boss health remaining, a-la older Konami arcade beat'em ups? Or small secondary explosions prior to the main explosion? Some visual indication to the player that the boss is truly in imminent danger of dying and that a couple seconds or less of focused point-blank fire will destroy it. To me, at least, this kind of feature would be very helpful in the higher difficulty modes.

The Duality engine, which Score Rush uses, does do both:

-- enemies start to flash near death, and flash continuously when about to die.
-- small explosions occur for all guns that you destroy when bullet patterns change
-- small explosions all over the enemy occur, causing fire (black blobs in Score Rush) all over, in increasing exponential number, covering nearly the entire boss right before death.

I am fully aware that the enemy flashing is HIDDEN entirely by the barrage of bullets hitting the enemy continuously, also causing it to flash. Attempts to showcase both flashing simultaneously have been made, and are in there, but fail to give any real differencing between them. So I have work to do.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Xonatron]

Oh yeah that's right, the flashing is in there, just hidded by the barrage of particles...

[Observer]

As I mentioned before, guys, isn't there a way to make the boss/player stand out from the rest during that crucial moment? For example, obscure or change the tone of most projectiles and explosions (I don't know, make them all black & white, after all, everything will kill you no matter the colour ), lower their brightness and make the player and the boss shine for the final strike/point blank shot? Like it's entering some sort of "monumental" moment, "crowning moment of awesome" would be the phrase.

edit: I mean, something that makes you say: "Ok, now or never!", be quick or be dead, die with your boots on, the final frontier... yes, I've been listening to Iron Maiden a lot.

edit2: Ok, one more: just making appear a huge lock-on reticle on the boss (beep, beep!). "STRIKE HERE <<<<"

[TodayIsForgotten]

I got it. Have the word Danger!!! appear. To really piss the player off have it cover 3/4 the screen.

Would you guys ever implement a way to change bullet colors or keep them all one color? I have the hardest time trying to runthrough expert without losing focus on 8 different colored bullets. I die more times to confusing colors than to actually not being able to dodge. It's just a thought.

[Jason]

I could easily make the bullets all the same color. As an option in the menus. In fact, I had this already for debugging, and it's removed for the final release. I had no idea anyone would have wanted this, since I figured the color helps distinguish paths. I'll consider adding this back in, but I am stressed for time right now, as I am trying to get online scoreboards working. Wish me luck!

[Jason]

As I mentioned before, guys, isn't there a way to make the boss/player stand out from the rest during that crucial moment? For example, obscure or change the tone of most projectiles and explosions (I don't know, make them all black & white, after all, everything will kill you no matter the colour ), lower their brightness and make the player and the boss shine for the final strike/point blank shot? Like it's entering some sort of "monumental" moment, "crowning moment of awesome" would be the phrase.

edit: I mean, something that makes you say: "Ok, now or never!", be quick or be dead, die with your boots on, the final frontier... yes, I've been listening to Iron Maiden a lot.

edit2: Ok, one more: just making appear a huge lock-on reticle on the boss (beep, beep!). "STRIKE HERE <<<<"

I get what you are wanting, but I just don't know how to make that happen. When you're fighting a boss, generally you and the boss are the only things on the screen already. Showing a "strike here" target implies something has changed, and likely you are already aiming at that spot anyway. I get the feeling you want, and I want this too, but I'm not sure how this would be accomplished...

Thanks for all of your ideas.... keep 'em coming. We're listening.

[Observer]

Generally <<<

Some bosses (and CAVE is no exception) can call in reinforcements, throw options, fire satellites, missiles that vomit bullets that vomit missiles and more bullets, and all that kind of fancy tricks. PLUS the regular bullets. PLUS all the debris and chaos.

I forgot to mention I was implying that last 35%-5% boss health moment, how to make it more clear so it just doesn't "pop" without style once you shoot at it enough times.

mmm... you could go balls to the wall and when the boss is almost about to die, it'll go insane (no berserker since it's been in berserker/crazy/desperate mode when it hit 35%-25% or so health right?) try to ram you and have dinner with your ship.

Nothing like seeing a Jupiter sized ship ramming at you.

Ah! Speaking of percentages, maybe that could do it instead of a health bar! Hellsinker is so complicated and over the top with the interface that bosses and bigger enemies have a very, very small percentage number as health to avoid cluttering things even more. It's usually clear enough to avoid confusion. So, maybe a small percentage number with good contrast could do it? (so the player is getting the idea that when the boss is at x%... THINGS WILL HAPPEN)

[Xonatron]

A lot of this stuff could be great for Score Rush 2 or Duality ZF.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I could easily make the bullets all the same color. As an option in the menus. In fact, I had this already for debugging, and it's removed for the final release. I had no idea anyone would have wanted this, since I figured the color helps distinguish paths. I'll consider adding this back in, but I am stressed for time right now, as I am trying to get online scoreboards working. Wish me luck!

It's only on the higher levels that i find the colors distracting via the inter-weaving of colored bullets. It's not a big deal either way. You put it in - great, you don't - great. Wish you luck.

[Xonatron]

Curious if any of you have tried it multiplayer (local only of course)?

[No_not_like_Quake]

Curious if any of you have tried it multiplayer (local only of course)?

I'd like to try it when I have a get together with my brothers. None of my friends that live close by like video games, sadly.

[Xonatron]

Curious if any of you have tried it multiplayer (local only of course)?

I'd like to try it when I have a get together with my brothers. None of my friends that live close by like video games, sadly.

I'm surprisingly in the same situation. Only a few of my close friend are into games like I am.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Curious if any of you have tried it multiplayer (local only of course)?

I have on a friend's console. It works really well but I recall not being able to see each individual player's score when returning to the main title screen. That is really my only gripe about the game.

The price is great for getting the mainstream FPS players into the genre. Interestingly enough after I told my friend to purchase the game (for the highly affordable price) they were fine playing alongside a bullet hell fan. Most of these people literally need a shmup player playing with them to even touch a bullet hell game. I found that they were a little better then they thought, bullet hell is a bit off-putting to most newcomers. It is nice to work together and playing for the same score really builds team effort.

I'm not a huge fan of analog sticks, however they are perfect and highly usable in this game.

Is there some other screen that displays each local player score individually? Often it takes too much time to glance at my score and find it out of 4 visually when dodging. Also I don't recall the scores from a local game being saved after the game is restarted.

Sorry if I missed some details, my friend always has to control all the menus and I hardly ever get a chance to fiddle with settings and look for options.

[Jason]

Individual player scores are not stored, since that promotes competition, and it's cooperative. It would be nice to see them, but that would mean 4 more scoreboards to show them. Things get a little bit complex trying to make all of this information available to the user. And even if I did make it available, some people may not see it anyway. Since the game is team based (after all, you share lives and bombs by default), we decided to score team based. Perhaps we shouldn't show the individual scores during gameplay, to remove the desire to see who's "winning"? The game is such that the player who concentrates on the bosses, while the friends clear the smaller enemies, will always get by far the largest score. The game's scoring mechanic based on domination simply does not work well for individual scores. While they are nice to see, they hold little meaning (of course, in general play, without playing the game like it's a science, in general the better player will score more).

It's so funny that people are scared of bullet hells... not sure there's much we can do about this. Everyone is always amazed at how well they can do. Maybe we should try and make this fact known, to get people to try!

Scores are not saved if you quit a game early, no. Should they be? I assume most quits are when you screw up at the beginning and want to restart, but I suppose someone could be having the run of their life, and need to quit 1 minute before the final boss... If you mean scores are not saved when a new game is started after the old one ends, then that would be incorrect, since the game saves all scores, up to 1,000 on all four scoreboards. It shows the scoreboard of interest after the game ends (if you play 2-player, it shows the 2-player board), and your score is centered and highlighted, so I'm surprised that they were not seen?

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jason]

It's only on the higher levels that i find the colors distracting via the inter-weaving of colored bullets. It's not a big deal either way. You put it in - great, you don't - great. Wish you luck.

I have it implemented so that you can change the bullet color, and decrease background brightness, and even lower the bullet glow (since some reviewer complained about that). It will be interesting to hear your feedback on how much any/all of this improves your gameplay... the update should be out in 1 week or so.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Ok, thanks for the explanations.

As I've said, I have only had the chance to play the game on a friend's console as I do not own a 360. Still a solid production for you guys. The showing of 4 player scoring during the game just creates an interesting dichotomy. Perhaps you just show the composite score then at the end of each game over screen you show some basic stats, who shot down the most enemies, who died the most, who used the fewest lives who scraped the most shots ect. These sort of soft stats will let players play as a team while showing who was the weakest. In essence creating a ranking system without having solid numbers to detract from their common goal - the composite score. These soft stats are not directly related to the score so they can create a sort of sub competition without detracting.

Just tossing this idea out guys. If you have your game laid out the way you like please disregard this. I don't want you to feel that I'm demanding anything, just tossing out some ideas from a fellow shmup coder.

[neoKEN]

I registered so I can add comments regarding Score Rush. Great value for 1$!

If there is Score Rush 2, may I suggest the following:

1. Moving backgrounds to simulate as though you are flying forward as in many of the other shmups. The background doesn't have to be complex. Most of my annoyance with the geometry war clones is that they feel as though they are trapped within a small box.

2. Noticeable background differentiations after each boss. It felt as though I was playing 1 long endless stage.

Other than that, for what it is, I think it is fantastic.

[Xonatron]

Thanks for coming in, neoKEN, and for the feedback.

Score Rush actually has a scrolling background that enemies both crash on and are situated on! It scrolls too slow to see. I think your feedback is great. We should address both points in the sequel.

[Special World]

Just downloaded this recently. You've created a very fun game, one which even my non shooter playing friends enjoy. Definitely one of the best values I've gotten out of a game as well. As soon as I played a game I texted my friend and now he loves it too.

I'm not sure how the scoring works, but you guys should think about adding something in addition to "kill things quickly" if that's all you have. I think it's be cool if you received a small amount of points for every bullet you cancel. Just something to give it that extra bit of scoring differences. Maybe just program them in as alternate modes. That way everyone wins. Canceling, chaining, bullet grazing, in-game rank, etc. The control and basic framework are completely quality, so try and go crazy with the minutiae every once in a while

Congrats on having my favorite indie game! Score Rush stands tall even among the main XBLA marketplace. imo.

[Xonatron]

Thanks for the feedback, SW.

Our experimentation with this game was something that was originally going to be introduced in Duailty ZF, which was a pure domination based scoring mechanism, no frills, no secrets, just pure domination. It's why we don't offer bonus points for extra lives and bombs at the end of the stage: Extra lives are already accounted for becuase when you don't die, you have kicked more ass through out the game (or had the ability to at least, which brings up the point of measuring only what matters). Extra bombs are useless at the end of the game, use them on the final boss if you have any left to kick even more ass. You can see how the philosophy works.

The next thing was unlockable difficulty modes to the point of being impossible, with scoring linearly improved along with the difficulty (technically along with the extra HP and extra firepower of the enemies), which gives the top score to the player who can kick the most ass in our game, not necessarily the one who can "perfect" a lower normal difficulty mode.

It's an experiment.

We know of other scoring mechanics, and I'm sure we will introduce more into our games in the future.

P.S. It would be great to get some of our games onto XBLA with achievements and leaderboards...

[No_not_like_Quake]

Will attempt 3 player simultaneous sessions next week. Will post impressions here.

[Xonatron]

I have some 3 player videos coming up soon. Just got done some games tonight.

[spadgy]

I've been really slow to get round to playing Score Rush.

That was damn stupid of me, because it's really good fun and very hard to put down. Amazing value for 80 MS points. Anybody with a connected 360 should give it a try. It's simple stuff, but there's nothing wrong with that. I'll be recommending this to a good few friends, and now it's got me even more stoked for Duality ZF!

In fact, I've been generally stupid in not giving XBL indie shooters enough attention!