I HATE shmups with Infinite continues, you can't turn off...

[Kiken]

Wow.... the Recapisms in this thread are amazing (as one could come to expect from him).

[ktownhero]

...aaand I'm a jerkdick.

Notice how everyone else has shown me respect in the so called B thread. I asked for it to be locked. The matter is over.

When you make a thread that says, "I hate when I can put credits in infinitely because I really don't want to, but can't help myself" you open yourself up for a little ridicule It's all just in fun.

[Ceph]

Wow.... the Recapisms in this thread are amazing (as one could come to expect from him).

Sometimes when coming across an old thread like this I wonder (for a quick moment only!) if Recap shouldn't be un-banned strictly for entertainment purposes.

[Kiken]

Wow.... the Recapisms in this thread are amazing (as one could come to expect from him).

Sometimes when coming across an old thread like this I wonder (for a quick moment only!) if Recap shouldn't be un-banned strictly for entertainment purposes.

It wouldn't matter... he wouldn't return. He's been pretty vocal about decrying this forum on the likes of TNL and IC (which has become SB).

[Pixel_Outlaw]

@ DJ Incompetent-Glad to know everything is cool.

[Arvandor]

I ALWAYS continue, unless I got a high score.

Why? Because continuing, pausing, and quiting out of the game is faster than making the timer run to zero. Especially in games that won't let you spam the counter for the first 2-3 seconds.

[Rob]

shouldn't we be speaking about two types of 1CC's, the straight 1CC's and the fake ones? Just wondering.

A perfect moment frozen in time.

[shinsage]

Did Recap get banned?
If so, we need to fix that.

This thread is gold.

[Rob]

He's better to examine from afar. It gets too tedious after 5 minutes. I'd rather have World of Stuart Stuart return to and frequent the board.

[EOJ]

shouldn't we be speaking about two types of 1CC's, the straight 1CC's and the fake ones? Just wondering.

A perfect moment frozen in time.

Lol. The really funny part is pretty much every major Japanese shmup player credit feeds to practice patterns from time to time, from what I've read. Particularly the stuff with insane difficulty, like Ketsui Ura loop, DDP DOJ 2nd loop, Mushi Futari Ultra mode, etc.

[MattC]

I hate when you can't turn off freeplay only when I play with 2 players, and the 2nd player credit feed too much.

This reminds me once a friend of mine was playing Salamander 2 here at my home, and he was crediting feed like hell. I just begun to tease him "Stop that", and stuff like that.. I was really pissed because he was reaching levels I hadn't seen before, and spoiling my surprise. Then I said "Well, if you keep doing this, you'll end up finishing the game. Then you will feel like you acomplished nothing, and will put the game away, and never play this great game again... you are just wasting your time"

At this point, he quit credit feed.

Maybe he wants to buy new games or something? I know I sound like a smart ass but it isn't 1987 anymore and billions of games come out each month. To some people, games are like movies. Once you reach the end, there are lots of different themes and gameplay for all sorts of games out there. I totally respect those who does not like credit feeding but a lot of casuals out there does not have the patience to learn a game in order to finish it.

[God]

It's odd... as a group we generally don't continue and are adamantly against credit feeding but argue in favor of games basically encouraging cred feeding by giving unlimited continues.

Maybe shmups should have a message at the beginning to help get newbies in the right frame of mind. Something like: "We've made the decision to give you unlimited credits for no obvious reason, so please, if you expect to get any enjoyment out of this game, don't use them."

Shmups get hammered in review after review for credfeedability. Fans (and probably developers) play the Misunderstood card.

Some train themselves to not mind. For the majority, it just ruins the game. Grabbing a larger slice from majority is vital if the genre is going to survive. It can be done without compromising the essence of shmup, fixing this would be a big and obvious first step.

This would be a problem in any genre, but its worse than usual for shmups because of the auto-scrolling. Games literally play themselves, all you have to do is press the continue button every now and then. You could set up a drinking bird to hit the key for you like Homer did. Anyone can walk up to an arcade shmup and beat it by doing nothing but putting money in (and hitting the continue button) and it would be the same amount of money every time. Its funny to think about shmups having specific do-nothing-to-win costs. I wonder what the most and least expensive in the top 25 are?

Checkpoint games are challenging even while cred feeding. I get the feeling they're intended to be fed thru and they work well as normal games: you don't have to play for score or for 1CC, you can play to win. It might not be a coincidence that the two most popular shmup series are R-Type and Gradius...both checkpoint games!

People here consider feeding cheating but normal gamers don't. People need a nudge in the right direction, something like the game withholding the best ending if continues are used, like games often do with the difficulty setting.

"But I enjoy casually feeding thru a game"

That's what cheats are for.

"But I want to practice the later levels"

This is why every shmup should have a practice mode. (or warp zones or level select cheats.)

Wow! That eliminates every game by Raizing, Cave, Psikyo, Takumi, Seibu, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah...its a big issue, not little one.

I question more the player who feels they've beaten a game by credit feeding it (haha, mars matrix isn't too hard!)

That's the sad part, he has actually beaten it. 1CC is just some random secondary task to dick around with the difficulty...like trying to speed-run a platformer.

on topic, if you really don't want the epic feel of shmups not be ruined, play on 1 credit like everyone is telling you, having 3 lives or having 15 just isn't the same.

We're telling the wrong people. It makes more sense for the developers to fix it than to instruct every potential fan individually.

I'm not sure, though, that this is "what killed the appeal of shmups."

It sure as shit isn't helping any. Probably not lethal but certainly not healthy.

[-Bridget-]

I have to say I partially agree on what was said up above, on the infinite continues helping speed up the "downfall" of shmups as a whole.


Because you just know that these reviewers just play through the game a couple times, and then decide, well, I just played through the entire game in such and such amount of time. Yes, the game kicked my ass on multiple counts, but hey, it's a really short game with not much to do in it; I just cant recommend this.

I just KNOW that's how they do that. Because half the time in these reviews, that's what I hear. It's short, only decicated fans of the series/genre should play this, and so on.


Alot of games nowadays keep a player's attention with a few particular strategies.

1, is the quest to unlock everything. 100% completion. That's a big one in alot of RPGs and adventure games.

2, make the game really long. This is great for some genres, but there's only ONE "long" shmup I can think of, and it's way back on the NES. The longer a game is, the more a player will feel they've gotten their money's worth.

3, Multiplayer competition. Shouldnt even have to explain the appeal there. Just look at Halo 2. (and no, I dont actually like Halo).


4, Endless gameplay; look at MMOs. Or not even endless, but just lots of "content" Huge areas to explore, stuff to grab, things like that. TIME consumption that doesnt usually have to do with actual challenge.


Shmups dont follow these usual rules. Any of them.


And whats more, they tend to be REALLY HARD.


The average, uber-lazy American gamer these days, just doesnt tolerate REAL difficulty too easily.


I remember the days of the NES, where you'd have difficult as heck side-scrolling platformers, and you'd get all of TWO continues. Run out, and that's it, your game is over. Couldnt save, either.

That was common back then.


Nowadays, theres always infinite continues in everything, plenty of games have infinite "lives" even, checkpoints, ability to save anywhere, generally easy gameplay (sometimes), games that take 60+ hours to beat.


Most players nowadays just cant see where the longevity in a shmup comes from, not unless it's really explained to them.


And the difficulty just puts them offa it.


Among my group of friends, Im the only one that really plays these. Mushihime is my favorite, and the one Im seen playing the most. My friends will watch me do this and say things like, "how the hell can you dodge all that?", and will refuse to try the game themselves, because "there's no way *I* could do any of that".



And so, naturally, only Japan gets all of these awesome games. Gamers over THERE seem to like a good challenge. Not over here, nooooooo.




Well, that's enough ranting on the subject from me. If I dont stop myself now, this'll become another one of my 3-page doom rants.

[Zaarock]

I usually just credit feed through a game once ( or twice if im bored ) to see what to expect and then start doing 1cc attempts, dont really need to think about it anymore, I just get disappointed with myself if i credit feed. I dont really see how a shmupper could be annoyed by unlimited credits, its just sort of an extra feature.

[Twiddle]

He's better to examine from afar. It gets too tedious after 5 minutes. I'd rather have World of Stuart Stuart return to and frequent the board.

Actually, with the number of card-carrying internet trolls we have these days I think it would be beneficial to have an actual whipping boy

[BIL]

2, make the game really long. This is great for some genres, but there's only ONE "long" shmup I can think of, and it's way back on the NES. The longer a game is, the more a player will feel they've gotten their money's worth.

Do you mean The Guardian Legend? Just out of curiosity... it's the only other game of its adventure / shooter hybrid status I know of, myself. I'd love to see that concept again (or find an older example I don't know of).

Actually, I could see the inherent difficulty of shooters being offset by an adventure element. Giving "optional superboss" status to the really hard (if we were lucky ) levels & bosses.

[EddyMRA]

Alot of games nowadays keep a player's attention with a few particular strategies.

1, is the quest to unlock everything. 100% completion. That's a big one in alot of RPGs and adventure games.

2, make the game really long. This is great for some genres, but there's only ONE "long" shmup I can think of, and it's way back on the NES. The longer a game is, the more a player will feel they've gotten their money's worth.

3, Multiplayer competition. Shouldnt even have to explain the appeal there. Just look at Halo 2. (and no, I dont actually like Halo).

4, Endless gameplay; look at MMOs. Or not even endless, but just lots of "content" Huge areas to explore, stuff to grab, things like that. TIME consumption that doesnt usually have to do with actual challenge.

Shmups dont follow these usual rules. Any of them.

And whats more, they tend to be REALLY HARD.

The average, uber-lazy American gamer these days, just doesnt tolerate REAL difficulty too easily.

In resonse to the part I bolded, not everyone in the world has the time to dedicate to a hard shmup.

To quote raiden from an older thread:

Let´s assume you were a casual mainstream gamer who likes easy games with a lot of cutscenes where you don´t have to do much to have a thrill of a ride. And someone would tell you that what you´re playing is shit, that some abstract, old-looking strange games which you completely suck at would be superior. What reason would you have to believe him? If he were right, that would mean you suck as a gamer, and the games you enjoy playing are shit. Is that some kind of perspective you´d welcome?

The point is many games these days are designed to be played over a long period of time in sessions.

Gamer tastes are different in Japan than in the USA. You shouldn't knock the current American taste in gaming just because it doesn't include games you like. You are not losing the games you like because the general public has a disdain for them.

I am really getting sick and tired of this "us vs. them" mentality prevalent in these forums. Get over it. In general, shmups have become a niche genre in America. It had its heyday 15-20 years ago. That's an entire generation. Wouldn't you think that gamers' tastes in America would surely change in that time?[/b]

[-Bridget-]

Alot of games nowadays keep a player's attention with a few particular strategies.

1, is the quest to unlock everything. 100% completion. That's a big one in alot of RPGs and adventure games.

2, make the game really long. This is great for some genres, but there's only ONE "long" shmup I can think of, and it's way back on the NES. The longer a game is, the more a player will feel they've gotten their money's worth.

3, Multiplayer competition. Shouldnt even have to explain the appeal there. Just look at Halo 2. (and no, I dont actually like Halo).

4, Endless gameplay; look at MMOs. Or not even endless, but just lots of "content" Huge areas to explore, stuff to grab, things like that. TIME consumption that doesnt usually have to do with actual challenge.

Shmups dont follow these usual rules. Any of them.

And whats more, they tend to be REALLY HARD.

The average, uber-lazy American gamer these days, just doesnt tolerate REAL difficulty too easily.

In resonse to the part I bolded, not everyone in the world has the time to dedicate to a hard shmup.

To quote raiden from an older thread:

Let´s assume you were a casual mainstream gamer who likes easy games with a lot of cutscenes where you don´t have to do much to have a thrill of a ride. And someone would tell you that what you´re playing is shit, that some abstract, old-looking strange games which you completely suck at would be superior. What reason would you have to believe him? If he were right, that would mean you suck as a gamer, and the games you enjoy playing are shit. Is that some kind of perspective you´d welcome?

The point is many games these days are designed to be played over a long period of time in sessions.

Gamer tastes are different in Japan than in the USA. You shouldn't knock the current American taste in gaming just because it doesn't include games you like. You are not losing the games you like because the general public has a disdain for them.

I am really getting sick and tired of this "us vs. them" mentality prevalent in these forums. Get over it. In general, shmups have become a niche genre in America. It had its heyday 15-20 years ago. That's an entire generation. Wouldn't you think that gamers' tastes in America would surely change in that time?[/b]

See, that's the thing though.

I AM losing games I like because the general public has a disdain for them.

Or I wouldnt be complaining.

I walk into any of the 8 gaming stores around here,

and the ONLY shmup Im likely to see ANYWHERE on shelves right now, is Raiden 3.

That's it. Just that one. Nothing else.

And understand, it's not that I dont like other types of games. The only 2 or 3 types of games that I usually wont play much of, are sports games, and 3D platformers (as they tend to be ASTONISHINGLY easy, I've found..... I might play one, but I get bored quickly). Or anything that is or tries to be like Grand Theft Auto (which I absolutely despise so very much).

No, I just get tired of many US gamers complaining when a game is too hard or complicated.

I see it so often, and it's not just with shooters.

No, it's with games in any genre.

My view is simply this: Yes, these games might be hard.

But until you FREAKING TRY THEM, yes, that's right, TRY instead of GIVE UP, you wont know for sure, now will you?

But so many wont even try it, it's just silly.

Also, dont think that I have some sort of disagreement with those rules up above that I stated. There's a reason why those things work; and it's a good reason. Heck, I am big into MMOs myself, in part because they do indeed never run outta content.

But at the same time, there's reasons why arcades in Japan are still in existence, while arcades HERE are so very, very dead. (yes, there's a few areas that still have some good ones, but for the most part they're long gone.....)

And those reasons are what tends to irritate me.

Anyway, it's all just my own opinion and view on it. Shmups just dont sell here, because of the way the US market is, and it's annoying. Whatever the reasons might be; it's still really annoying.

Haha, of course, wouldnt be so annoying if I didnt have to pay Play-Asia ten gazillion dollars to import one of these

At least Japan still likes them, though, that I can do that......

[-Bridget-]

2, make the game really long. This is great for some genres, but there's only ONE "long" shmup I can think of, and it's way back on the NES. The longer a game is, the more a player will feel they've gotten their money's worth.

Do you mean The Guardian Legend? Just out of curiosity... it's the only other game of its adventure / shooter hybrid status I know of, myself. I'd love to see that concept again (or find an older example I don't know of).

Actually, I could see the inherent difficulty of shooters being offset by an adventure element. Giving "optional superboss" status to the really hard (if we were lucky ) levels & bosses.

And yes, I do mean Guardian Legend.

That is such a freaking awesome game.......

I agree with you, I'd just love to see that concept again. The combination of shooter/adventure.

There IS one other game like that, on the GBA, I *think* the name is Sigma Star Saga, that came out to generally good reviews.

It's not QUITE the same thing, but it's still a step in that direction.

Combining shmups with other genres, is a good idea that isnt used very often.....

[sfried]

Continues should be there. If it's infinate, you can always choose not to continue. I understand where many people are coming from, but I could also see people who just want to finish the game first before anything else.

Besides, how can you master something you can't even complete?

[jp]

3 lives per credit, 10 lives per credit, its still 1 credit anyway you cut it, and its still impressive because it involves the number "1" and the word "credit".

I love me.

[mainpatr1]

Why don't they make it so you have to beat the game first to get infinite credits/free play mode?

Or at the very least, put an option in the DIP switches for it that's accessible through the test menu.

All SNK shmups have that, why not other shmups?

I credit feed a lot, but I think 1CCing,1LCing the game adds more fun to the gameplay.

Especially if it's a manic.