Never knew Chartered Accountants were so big on magical maid girls.320x240 wrote:Tohou wrote:We make games for Chartered Accountants. Now you can play STG's and still be your boring self!
So why all the Touhou Hate?
"That's just retarded, retarded I tell 'ya!" Hahaha, that's really contributing towards this discussion. What about the points that you missed? You're dodging my points about ZUN's games being unoriginal and you're trying to make them original again because "oh it's been done before but it can't be helped". Nice work. Slow-ass bullet patterns that appear more as eye candy than bullet hell and "last" cards at you might be original but it certainly isn't praised. It's actually kinda sad to see you turn Icycalm on this thread.moozooh wrote:This is the worst erinu logic ever, seriously.
I asked you to name games whose scoring systems closely resembled those of the games I listed (and note that I didn't list PoFV because it's never been a secret to me that it was a clone of Twinkle Star "Spirits" — Sprites, actually), not in which some of its particular elements appeared. That's retarded. As I said, following that logic, pretty much all the scoring systems from 90's on are unoriginal, because by that time all their elements, which include blowing up stuff for score, bombing, collecting items, speed and proximity bonuses, etc., have been done. I don't even want to bother showing you every point you've missed, because that's just too retarded.
And this is why I can't stand the majority of Touhou fans. Everything I have previously mentioned regarding Imperishable Night has been correct - and the scoring system isn't "simple" as much as you would like to believe. It's not simple, and it's probably the most complicated scoring system in the entire series.moozooh wrote:If you ever learn to read, you'll see that a simple scoring system doesn't mean exhausting it is simple. I'm not contradicting myself in the slightest.
Think about a newcomer to the series and them approaching the scoring system, simple grazing would be easier. Raising the cherry meter would be easier. Collecting items in a timely manner in MoF to raise a gauge (gee, where have I heard this before?) is easier. In comparison to IN, all the other games have scoring systems which are easier to play with.
You are obviously set in your ways and it feels like I'm talking to an ignorant person so I'll just give up now. I hope you learn from this experience and understand that forcing Touhou specifics like this when no one really cares is just going to make people think worse of it and the fans that tag along.
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Zebra Airforce
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Etrian,
1. If you don't understand something, it doesn't automatically mean it's complex. It means you have to know the logic behind it. It's also called "learning the game", something that is expected from the player if they want to make a high score.
2. If you can't execute a simple set of commands, it doesn't mean the set of commands isn't simple. It means you're not good enough at it. If you can't get better, it's no game's fault.
3. If you're not understanding my question, it doesn't mean any reply will do. So far you've replied with nonsense so ridiculous you're getting mocked by others, those who aren't Touhou fans in any way. That shows.
4. You are Erinu. Case closed.
1. If you don't understand something, it doesn't automatically mean it's complex. It means you have to know the logic behind it. It's also called "learning the game", something that is expected from the player if they want to make a high score.
2. If you can't execute a simple set of commands, it doesn't mean the set of commands isn't simple. It means you're not good enough at it. If you can't get better, it's no game's fault.
3. If you're not understanding my question, it doesn't mean any reply will do. So far you've replied with nonsense so ridiculous you're getting mocked by others, those who aren't Touhou fans in any way. That shows.
4. You are Erinu. Case closed.
Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
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Mischief Maker
- Posts: 4803
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:44 am
There are other PC doujins out there, but the vast majority of them aren't any better. You might want to check out developers such as Siter Skain, Studio Siesta, Tasogare Frontier, ABA Games, and X.X. Though I should note that "not up to quality of arcade shooters" isn't really true.
There is also a number of non-indie shmups ported to PC, which include Raiden III, Shikigami no Shiro II and III, and possibly some others, but unfortunately, there's not much to look for.
There is also a number of non-indie shmups ported to PC, which include Raiden III, Shikigami no Shiro II and III, and possibly some others, but unfortunately, there's not much to look for.
Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
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Zebra Airforce
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also i like how bombing actually gives you penalties that make your scoring suckEtrian wrote:Excuse me. I have. Bombing in Ibara gives you score and you must use it often and in appropriate places, bombing in MoF does the same. This is painfully obvious.shoe-sama wrote:uh no it was taken from salamander (or at least salamander 2, I haven't played the first)Etrian wrote:MoF's bombing system is taken from Ibara.
it doesn't even remotely resemble ibara or any raizing game's bombs
Do you power down when you bomb in raizing?
hahaha get your facts straight
HOLY SHIT YOU SHOULD BOMB EVERY BOSS
<Sidwell> TSS is manlier than a jet figher made of biceps.
Yes dude! If I share an opinion with someone they must be the same person! Wait, what?moozooh wrote:Etrian,
1. If you don't understand something, it doesn't automatically mean it's complex. It means you have to know the logic behind it. It's also called "learning the game", something that is expected from the player if they want to make a high score.
2. If you can't execute a simple set of commands, it doesn't mean the set of commands isn't simple. It means you're not good enough at it. If you can't get better, it's no game's fault.
3. If you're not understanding my question, it doesn't mean any reply will do. So far you've replied with nonsense so ridiculous you're getting mocked by others, those who aren't Touhou fans in any way. That shows.
4. You are Erinu. Case closed.
I never said that I didn't understand the game. I've put heaps of hours into all the games already, I understand Imperishable Night pretty well, which is why I'm saying that the game's scoring system is probably the hardest to learn outl of the series. And I'm pretty certain that people who have played the series also agree with me. It's the hardest scoring system to learn, and the hardest to execute accordingly. We were actually agreeing about this but this isn't what I'm getting at.
...and I've said this, like, 3 times now? But no, it still isn't getting through to you. You could provide examples of other Touhou games with a more complex system, or like... anything, maybe something that's going to counter my argument.. but nothing. So far, you're throwing "IN's scoring system is simple once you understand how, but difficult to master", when you should be throwing "IN's scoring system isn't the hardest to learn out of the rest of the series because _____".
Complex scoring only takes place if you have to micromanage many things at once. If you just have to learn a stage path then it's easy.
Cuz uh shmups and games in general are already about learning stage paths. This applies to both survival and score play.
LURN2PLY
Cuz uh shmups and games in general are already about learning stage paths. This applies to both survival and score play.
LURN2PLY
<Sidwell> TSS is manlier than a jet figher made of biceps.
Execute accordingly is not the right way to put it. Generally, there is a rule of thumb in IN, and it is: get more time orbs out of anything at all costs. This, by itself, does make it gradually harder to do, because to get 50% more time orbs per stage than you normally do, you need to get like 200% better at the stage. Including no-missing/no-bombing, milking and capturing spellcards, and all that. It's like going to a shooting range, and instead of accepting just hitting the target, going straight for the bull's eye each time. Nothing is made more complex that way, it's the execution standard that changes.Etrian wrote:It's the hardest scoring system to learn, and the hardest to execute accordingly. We were actually agreeing about this but this isn't what I'm getting at. :|
Alright, I can do it this way as well. IN's scoring system isn't the hardest to learn because all of its main/basic principles (get more time orbs, pick up all items at PoC, no-miss/no-bomb) work with each other linearly. Which is, if you get more time orbs, your points will be worth more. If you pick more point items, the time orbs will be worth more. Missing and panicbombing reduces the amount of time orbs you've collected and has a negative impact on the endgame bonus. That's all there is to it.Etrian wrote:...and I've said this, like, 3 times now? But no, it still isn't getting through to you. You could provide examples of other Touhou games with a more complex system, or like... anything, maybe something that's going to counter my argument.. but nothing. So far, you're throwing "IN's scoring system is simple once you understand how, but difficult to master", when you should be throwing "IN's scoring system isn't the hardest to learn out of the rest of the series because _____".
Perfect Cherry Blossom has a more complex scoring system, because the dependence between its main scoring elements is frighteningly nonlinear, i.e. get this: you trade one benefit for another. For instance, the maximum lives/bombs you can have at the end of the game is 8/8, but the current Lunatic WR for Sakuya-B (2.98 billions) ends the game with 7/2. No, not because the player is bad, quite the opposite: because the player knew where to use the spare lives/bombs to increase the multiplier. Another example from the Lunatic WR table: the current #1 (2.4B) for Marisa-A is held by ISO, who ends the game with 8/2. The previous record (2.36B) was held by HASEGA~ with 5/2. The only reason ISO managed to get these 40 millions required to beat it is that he gets almost a hundred more point items. But a hundred point items should net way more than 40 millions, not to mention the 90 millions from extra lives, how is that? It's that HASEGA~ traded his spares for a much better multiplier, which made his items worth more. This is complex, and you have a lot of things to consider when planning out a run. For a game like IN, you don't have to plan anything: you just play better, and your score goes up. Have someone play PCB like they would play IN, and the score will most likely never go over 60% of the WR, because that's where "play better" ends its dominance and "have a better strategy" prevails.
[EDIT]
Shoe's post above sums it up well. You don't need to micromanage stuff in IN, while you must in PCB. End of story.
Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
I would distribute some chill pills, but I'm not sure i brought enough 
anyways, play what you enjoy, what other people think about the games you play shouldn't really affect you're enjoyment of them. (unless, of course, they are actively preventing you from playing said games but I think that is safely not the case, with touhou or any other game)
I will just echo the point that most of the instinctive negative reaction to touhou is probably due to the majority of its fanbase. I agree, a lot of them are creepy as all hell. This is no different than the majority of fans of anime's I enjoy. They can simply and safely be ignored and are fairly easily avoided, so thats a pretty moot point.
on to slightly more interesting issue, with regards to etrian's point on scoring systems:
It kind of depends on what you mean by complex, which I think is where you and moozooh are colliding.
I would say that IN's system has the most individual elements, but each element is fairly self contained, and mostly on a local timescale. Specific strategies for popping formation of familiars to maximize time orbs. Switching from human to phantom isn't immediate, but still a rather quick and can be done mostly at will, one the order of seconds. At any given time, your ability to score is only really affected by your actions over the last few seconds.
I would argue that PCB's system, is more "complex," which in this context means that each element affects many other elements. the individual elements, such as shoot to increase cherry, get border at 50,000, are relatively simple.
cherry builds up gradually and persists between stages. so whether or not you get a border at some time depends on your play over an extended period of time (could be minutes)
So there's a difference between complexity=number of elements, and complexity=interactions between elements and I think you're arguing for different ones.
so you can think of it sort of like an nth order markov model. Etrian's metric defines complexity as the number of nodes in the model, whereas moozooh's model defines complexity as the order of the markov model.
and I would tend towards defining it as the order of the model since and nth order model can be reduced to a lower order model by expanding the number of nodes exponentially. I really, really need to sleep (please, please don't take that seriously)
EDIT:
okay, well, beaten. The non-linear statement is a good one I think, pretty similar to what I meant.
anyways, play what you enjoy, what other people think about the games you play shouldn't really affect you're enjoyment of them. (unless, of course, they are actively preventing you from playing said games but I think that is safely not the case, with touhou or any other game)
I will just echo the point that most of the instinctive negative reaction to touhou is probably due to the majority of its fanbase. I agree, a lot of them are creepy as all hell. This is no different than the majority of fans of anime's I enjoy. They can simply and safely be ignored and are fairly easily avoided, so thats a pretty moot point.
on to slightly more interesting issue, with regards to etrian's point on scoring systems:
It kind of depends on what you mean by complex, which I think is where you and moozooh are colliding.
I would say that IN's system has the most individual elements, but each element is fairly self contained, and mostly on a local timescale. Specific strategies for popping formation of familiars to maximize time orbs. Switching from human to phantom isn't immediate, but still a rather quick and can be done mostly at will, one the order of seconds. At any given time, your ability to score is only really affected by your actions over the last few seconds.
I would argue that PCB's system, is more "complex," which in this context means that each element affects many other elements. the individual elements, such as shoot to increase cherry, get border at 50,000, are relatively simple.
cherry builds up gradually and persists between stages. so whether or not you get a border at some time depends on your play over an extended period of time (could be minutes)
So there's a difference between complexity=number of elements, and complexity=interactions between elements and I think you're arguing for different ones.
so you can think of it sort of like an nth order markov model. Etrian's metric defines complexity as the number of nodes in the model, whereas moozooh's model defines complexity as the order of the markov model.
and I would tend towards defining it as the order of the model since and nth order model can be reduced to a lower order model by expanding the number of nodes exponentially. I really, really need to sleep (please, please don't take that seriously)
EDIT:
okay, well, beaten. The non-linear statement is a good one I think, pretty similar to what I meant.
So, for those who haven't been on IRC the past few days: I've actually started capturing the superplays.jpj wrote:anyone got any links to touhou super-plays or whatever?
Decided to start with Perfect Cherry Blossom's current Phantasm stage (a harder version of the Extra stage) world record by HS参謀, since it was relatively short (21 minutes in total) and easy to capture/encode:
http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?c ... gameid=198
I guess the next one will be the WR of Extra stage of Imperishable Night, because the HDD space on my capping computer is very limited at the moment, and I don't want to capture full game playthroughs on per-level basis, so I'm limited to sub-25 minute playthroughs at 30 fps. When I resolve this issue, I will do longer caps (and in full 60 fps, too).
Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
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Momijitsuki
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Zuhzuhzombie!!
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Hoboy, another one of THESE topics again....
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
There's nothing "wrong" with Touhou really....
They're not bad. But they're also not the end-all be-all of shmups like some fans believe them to be.
Personally, I dont care for ZUN's style in terms of bullet patterns overmuch.... not bad, mind you, and certainly pretty, but I definitely prefer Cave or Psikyo or..... uh..... whoever did Shikigami.
Yet even still, they're very different games. Personally, I think it's worth trying all of them, if you can. Not hard to get, really.
No, my only problem with Touhou is simply the usual "ZOMG IT HAS GIRLS IN IT SO IT"S AWESIOMENESS" type of fanboy..... if you've been exposed to the series enough, you should know the type by now, lol.
THATS what bugs me.
Otherwise, they're fine games, really. Maybe not my favorites, but still quite fine games indeed.
Now if only Vista would stop WHINING about them every time....
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
There's nothing "wrong" with Touhou really....
They're not bad. But they're also not the end-all be-all of shmups like some fans believe them to be.
Personally, I dont care for ZUN's style in terms of bullet patterns overmuch.... not bad, mind you, and certainly pretty, but I definitely prefer Cave or Psikyo or..... uh..... whoever did Shikigami.
Yet even still, they're very different games. Personally, I think it's worth trying all of them, if you can. Not hard to get, really.
No, my only problem with Touhou is simply the usual "ZOMG IT HAS GIRLS IN IT SO IT"S AWESIOMENESS" type of fanboy..... if you've been exposed to the series enough, you should know the type by now, lol.
THATS what bugs me.
Otherwise, they're fine games, really. Maybe not my favorites, but still quite fine games indeed.
Now if only Vista would stop WHINING about them every time....
